Gave chain Turner a overhaul

kensfarm · March 22, 2017, 03:45:59 PM

Quote from: Clover on March 22, 2017, 10:30:27 AM
Anyone have a picture of TK's curved design?

Not a great picture.. the TK1600 can fit 37in between posts.. this white oak log was part of a 5ft diameter monster yard tree.. I was maxing it out and had to trim.

ladylake · March 22, 2017, 05:04:21 PM

Quote from: Kbeitz on March 22, 2017, 03:30:30 PM
So why no got with agg chain ?

That chain would be ripped apart fast. Steve

ladylake · March 22, 2017, 05:09:20 PM

Having run both the straight turner on my B20 and curved turner on my brothers TK 2000 I still don't know which one I like better. Steve

sandsawmill14 · March 22, 2017, 05:26:48 PM

Quote from: ladylake on March 22, 2017, 05:04:21 PM
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 22, 2017, 03:30:30 PM
So why no got with agg chain ?

That chain would be ripped apart fast. Steve

i agree with steve that chain is way to light to even consider and the long teeth on it will cause the chain to hump up when ts trying to turn the log even on the little b20 mill the hyd will destroy the turner chain i even quit ordering the links to bolt the teeth the chain and just weld 3/4" keystock to the 60h chain and it is much stronger than the links you buy to put them on the chain

Kbeitz · March 22, 2017, 06:24:34 PM

Ok.... I'll just keep moving up the line... Trencher chain

http://www.replacementdiggingparts.com/

Ga Mtn Man · March 22, 2017, 06:34:47 PM

As I recall, on their newer mills TK uses links like the first one kbeitz posted, only with square chunks of steel bolted between the "flanges" (not sure what to call them).

ladylake · March 22, 2017, 06:51:14 PM

At first on my B20 TK used the links Kbeitz first pics without any metal between them which folded over fast, then TK added metal blocks screwed between the side tabs which I welded as I didn't trust the screws that held them in place, big improvement but it was still 60 chain which wasn't tough enough and cost way too much so I bought 10' of 60 H chain and welded the U shaped metal pieces every 5th link, I get around 3 years out of that 60h chain now, Sandswamill14 doesn't get as long life but he's only sawing the oversized logs, I mostly saw normal logs with a few oversized ones. I might have to try the 3/4" keystock as that would be easier. Kbietz, what me and Sandsawmill are doing is cheap and works well. The new TK mills have WAY bigger chain on them and wont be having chain problems, I'd guess 100 Steve

Clover · March 22, 2017, 07:28:03 PM

Ok here's my turner I'm going to build. 60 drive chain because I have it. 60H turner chain for extra strength with welded U grabbers made out of schedule 80 1" pipe and curved frame to guide chain. 2.5" lift cylinder. Any thoughts gentlemen?

ladylake · March 23, 2017, 06:48:48 AM

You forgot the hydraulic motor to turn the chain , on my B20 I think its around 900 RPM 2.2 cu in with a 1" shaft geared down with the motor having a couple less teeth than the turner sprocket. On the TK 2000 the motor is way bigger direct drive and both could use a hair more power on the real big ones. Steve

Clover · March 23, 2017, 08:43:52 AM

The hydraulic motor I already have is 23.3 ci. With my 13hp power pack it should turn about 50 rpm's. I've never seen one in service but I think that's still way too fast. I was thinking of a three to one reduction on the drive side.

How many rpm's are other chain turners running at?

FloridaMike · March 23, 2017, 08:48:48 AM

Steve, do you think lower rpm would be good, along with adding "more power" (torque)? I was thinking 300 rpm would be plenty fast, it just needs to be high torque (as you said for the "real big ones").

Clover · March 23, 2017, 09:15:29 AM

FloridaMike 300 rpm's seem pretty fast. Imagine turning a log that speed on your mill, that seems pretty quick.

The higher the cubic inch of the hydraulic motor the higher the torque. Also a disk valve motor will have pretty close to double the torque of a spool valve motor with the same cubic inch size. Hydraulic motors also don't like a lot of side loading on the shaft at higher rpm's and their loading really drops off as they are sped up. It's best to check manufacturers specs to get the right one. One other thing to look for is pressure ratings, most won't go to 3000 psi like a cylinder will.

I don't know what your using to power your hydraulic pump but I originally had a 6.5hp power pack and found it waaay to slow.

FloridaMike · March 23, 2017, 10:01:49 AM

I am using a 16hp gas engine (originally purchased for the mill) which will power a 16 GPM hyd. pump and a 12v alternator. I understand the shaft loading restrictions for most hyd. motors, hence my plan to direct drive the log turner chain. I haven't ordered the log turner motor yet, so I'm all ears on what speed is best!

Also I will be asking for guidance on control valves configuration when I get to that stage of the project. The whole open vs. closed centers, power beyond and variable speed options are confusing to me. I plan to diagram the system with blank circles for controls, post it here on FF and see what advice I get.

Thanks!

ladylake · March 23, 2017, 11:03:39 AM

I looked up the specs on my turner motor
2.8 ci in
969 RPM at 12 gpm. I only run my 6.5hp gas engine at half speed so the turner is only getting 3 to 4 gpm
1800 psi

Keep in mind that if you use a 5" spocket your only turning the chain 15.7" per rpm. I wouldn't want my chain turner speed to be much slower , a little slower would be OK but nice to be able to turn those logs fast. Steve

Rougespear · March 23, 2017, 11:30:15 AM

My claw turner rotates the logs slowly but reliably, with little damage to a cant. There are many times I would like to rotate faster though... especially on opening cuts and such. So I can see where ladylake is coming from with regard to having the speed up there on the chain turner.

Gundog · March 23, 2017, 02:16:26 PM

Nice job Redbeard I see you are just up the road from me a ways. As a suggestion using some UHMW as a replaceable wear strip would help on wear of both the chain and tube. I have some you can have if you get down my way. UHMW wears about 3 times longer than steel when used in this type application. I machine a fair amount of UHMW so I have some scraps laying around you can have.

Mike

Clover · March 23, 2017, 02:42:52 PM

FloridaMike I don't think your going to be able to turn that pump with 16hp. Maybe an 8 gal/hour would work. Well not at a hydraulic cylinders working presure anyways.

A 6.5hp is rated at about 3.5 gal/min at 3500 rpm's and 3000psi. This is gas engine specific. Electric motors would be rated lower hp requirements for same pump.

ladylake · March 23, 2017, 03:04:36 PM

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Calculators/Pump-Disp-HP-GPM-RPM/

Looks like 16 hp will turn a 16gpm pump at 1500 pressure but not much more, I think most relief valves are set somewhere around 1500# but not sure.. For sure not at 3000#. Steve

ladylake · March 23, 2017, 03:10:13 PM

According to that calculator if I'm getting 3 GPM at 2500 rpm my motor would be turning 248 RPM. Steve

redbeard · March 23, 2017, 07:28:51 PM

Thanks Gundog! My friend that did all the fab work was wanting to use that product.
There's a TK 2500 not far from me and my buddy is going to help me Fabricate a new or second Two plane clamp. These pics I took awhile back. Need to go back over there and get pics of the turner.

Gundog is this white plastic the product you were talking about?

FloridaMike · March 23, 2017, 09:13:56 PM

Quote from: Clover on March 23, 2017, 02:42:52 PM
FloridaMike I don't think your going to be able to turn that pump with 16hp....

The pump is rated at 16 gpm at 3,600 rpm at 3,625 psi, with a 1.08 pump displacement. So I am thinking it will produce incrementally less gpm at a lower rpm at a lower psi? Per the surplus center hydraulics calculator an 1.08 displacement pump turning at 2,250 rpm will yield 10.5 gpm flow rate. So I am hoping for around 10 gpm @ 2,500 psi. If that doesn't work out I will be shopping for either a bigger gas engine or smaller pump.

Again I thank the collective knowledge of the FF! I was thinking I was over powered for my hydraulic power pack... wrong... under powered!

Clover · March 23, 2017, 10:11:57 PM

FloridaMike you will be better off matching a pump to your motor. You would be able to use that pump at a lower pressure but then you wouldn't be able to fully utilize a cylinder rated at 3000 psi. You will have plenty of gpm to move cylinders and motor with a 6 to 8 gpm pump.

Baseline your system at 3000 psi and then you add horsepower to increase gpm.

Closed centre spool valves are usually used with variable displacement pumps. Gear pumps are not variable displacement.

Gundog · March 24, 2017, 12:54:10 AM

Quote from: redbeard on March 23, 2017, 07:28:51 PM
Thanks Gundog! My friend that did all the fab work was wanting to use that product.
There's a TK 2500 not far from me and my buddy is going to help me Fabricate a new or second Two plane clamp. These pics I took awhile back. Need to go back over there and get pics of the turner. Gundog is this white plastic the product you were talking about?

Most likely but white UHMW is not UV stabilized so it maybe another type plastic the UHMW I use is black and good for UV. White UHMW will get hard and brittle after a few years in the sun usually they use white indoors in the food industry.

I noticed when I looked at a WM mill the other day they were using some sort of white plastic and it made me wonder about the UV rating. I make marine products so it all needs to be UV rated and I use black only for that reason. I use white Marine board a type of HDPE that is UV stabilized but it is not as tough as UHMW. Each type plastic has a use.

Mike

sandsawmill14 · March 24, 2017, 07:57:42 AM

Quote from: ladylake on March 22, 2017, 06:51:14 PM

At first on my B20 TK used the links Kbeitz first pics without any metal between them which folded over fast, then TK added metal blocks screwed between the side tabs which I welded as I didn't trust the screws that held them in place, big improvement but it was still 60 chain which wasn't tough enough and cost way too much so I bought 10' of 60 H chain and welded the U shaped metal pieces every 5th link, I get around 3 years out of that 60h chain now, Sandswamill14 doesn't get as long life but he's only sawing the oversized logs, I mostly saw normal logs with a few oversized ones. I might have to try the 3/4" keystock as that would be easier. Kbietz, what me and Sandsawmill are doing is cheap and works well. The new TK mills have WAY bigger chain on them and wont be having chain problems, I'd guess 100 Steve

steve is right about the log size being my problem with the chain you can look at my gallery and see some pics as a rule i dont saw anything under 24" and most are 30"+

the biggest i have cut was a 50+" live oak

but it had to be split and then a heavy slab had to be took off the top with chainsaw to get it through the mill :

just to give an idea of the weight of logs this size for you guys who dont run into this size timber i broke 3 of the leveling jacks off the first week i had the mill and now i set it up on rr ties and chain the tongue of the mill to the truck hitch at a 90* angle to hold the mill on the blocks or the logs will scoot the mill when they come off the loader arms :

another problem with turning the large logs is the backstops if you dont put a pipe on them to make them tall enough the log cant get on top of it the log will drive them down like a nail but if you stay under 28-30" it doesnt give much trouble

Clover · March 24, 2017, 09:48:17 PM

Looks like 16 hp will turn a 16gpm pump at 1500 pressure but not much more, I think most relief valves are set somewhere around 1500# but not sure.. For sure not at 3000#. Steve

Steve that calculator is for electric motors. It states that you must double the HP requirements for gas engines. I'm running 13hp and can stall out the engine at 3000psi and it's only 6 gals/sec.

You could run lower pressures but the cylinders would have to be doubled in size to do the same work.