What settings to kill PPB?

[Brad_bb]

I've got some beech 2"x8" barnwood that has some PPB leaving some piles of dust.  Wood is still good but I want kill them.  I found a guy with a Nyle Kiln set up.  What temp does the kiln need to be and for how long to kill the PPB larvae/eggs?  He thinks it needs to be higher temp than what he dries hardwood at.  He doesn't know the temp or how long.  Thanks, Brad_bb

[armechanic]

Call local USDA and know for sure. I have seen all ranges of temp.  You have to get the internal temp of the wood by drilling a hole and installing a probe in a stick of wood that is placed in the center of the load of wood.  I think it is something like 140 degrees for 45 minutes.

[xlogger]

133° and will have to be there and over better for maybe 6 hours for 4/4. I get my kiln at 145°

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

133 F is required throughout the entire piece of lumber and this includes every piece.  No time is required, once there.  To achieve this temperature, you will need an air temperature of at least 150F and 160 F is better and faster.

[WDH]

I sterilize at 150° held for 24 hours. 

[Brad_bb]

WDH - I'm assuming that is what you use for 1x?

So from what people are saying here, it sounds like the internal temp is what is critical.  Where do you get a temperature probe that will install in a board and I assume that you run the wire outside to a meter of some sort?  The guy I'm talking to has a Nyle Kiln that he built.

[WDH]

I use 24 hours for 4/4 and 9/4.  I don't measure the internal temp, just hold the air temp at 150 degrees for 24 hours to assure that the wood has enough time to reach 133° internally.  I don't believe that wood is that good of an insulator. 

[Deese]

I recently posted this pic of red oak logs in the "Whatcha Sawin" thread. They have been on the ground for a while, but I just recently trimmed and sealed the ends, and cut one in half and sealed the two fresh openings immediately.


 

I went back yesterday to find what appears to be powder post beetles? boring into the sapwood.


 


 

What should I do at this point? Trim more off the ends, removing them before they get too deep, reseal with anchorseal, saw into lumber immediately, then treat lumber with  Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate?

[WDH]

It is ambrosia beetles, probably hatching out and leaving the log.  They will exit the lumber once it begins to dry.  They cannot live in drying and dry wood.  Nothing you can do about them.  They will leave on their own accord and are not an issue like powderpost beetles.  Once you say the lumber, though, you might want to spray with borate, not because of the ambrosia beetles but, instead, to prevent powderpost beetle infestation once the lumber is air dried. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

I agree with the diagnosis of ambrosia beetles.

[Deese]

WDH and Mr Gene, that's music to my ears. Thank you both for your input.  8)

[YellowHammer]

When I have had them that bad, I will saw the sapwood off the log and burn it.  The reason being I have lost a good deal of lumber by sticking and drying ambrosia beetle infested wood.  If boards are stickered, especially with solid stickers, and the critters try to leave the sapwood and hit a sticker, they will keep boring.  So then the sticker is potentially infested.  However, the beetle will keep boring until it emerges, and if it has to go through another board, on the other side of the sticker, it will.  So now there will be holes in lots of boards, many in a nice, neat row inline where the stickers were. 

I have sprayed which does kill them, but even if one or two makes a hole in another board, then I can't sell it.  Since I don't like selling wood with any chemicals on it, I prefer to slab deep and throw them into the fire.....

If you look close, you should see that their antenna have little bulbs on them.   Here's a picture I took several years ago.

[Deese]

Thanks YH,
Its going to be at least 2 weeks before I saw them.
I'll probably swing by there tomorrow and take a close look at them just for kicks. However, I did witness 3 of them crawl out of the same hole, all carrying a small beverage and it appeared they were dancing and having a good'ole time. Must be a party in there somewhere. In all seriousness I've decided to quartersaw these and see what happens as they dry.

[Deese]

Couldn't determine what brand...just too small.

[flatrock58]

Yellowhammer.  Are you saying you can't sell oak that has ambrosia beetle holes in it or it just sells for a lot less?

[WDH]

They ruin the high grade stuff but add to the value of the rustic stuff  . 

[Tree Dan]

Would the same temp apply to killing ants, or a slightly lower temp?

[YellowHammer]

Would the same temp apply to killing ants, or a slightly lower temp?

Ants, especially the big black carpenter ants, are tough, they will just feel frisky at lower temps.  150° F for 24 hours will kill them. 

Yellowhammer.  Are you saying you can't sell oak that has ambrosia beetle holes in it or it just sells for a lot less?

Soapbox time, I apologize in advance for the long post.  I will also refer to wood eating insects of any species simply as bugs, because that is what the general wood buying public, who doesn't know the difference between an ambrosia beetle and a flying ant, thinks of them.  Bugs is bugs.

People who buy wood don't know and don't care what makes the holes, a bug is a bug is a bug.  To the public, bugs in wood are bad, and bug holes in wood that isn't supposed to have bug holes is very bad, as all bug holes are caused by the dreaded PPB or termite, whether or not they actually were, as far as the general public is concerned.  It's also common knowlwdge that PPBs and termites destroy barns and houses, can spread like wildfire, and everybody who is a woodworker knows someone, or knows someone who knows someone, who has unwittingly infected their house, favorite furniture or wood supply with bugs carried in on improperly sterilized lumber. 

Nobody who buys high grade clear wood will tolerate bug holes, if that style of wood isn't supposed to have any.  You might as well be trying to sell moldy hamburger. In fact, most customers are very intolerant of it and react badly to it.  If somebody sees high grade wood, especially oak, with bug holes, they will not buy it.  If they buy it and don't see the holes until later, and they don't know if the bugs are active or not, the BEST case scenario is that they will return the board in exchange for another.  The worst case scenario is much worse, trust me.

If the high grade is dropped to low grade due to the bug holes, and sold as such, even with the buyer fully aware, then when other people see the wood they will also see the bug holes, causing people to associate the bug wood with who sold it, again causing bad publicity.  We get customers from other local mills who tell us they will never go back again because "they" sell bug wood, which is similar, in the customers minds as selling wood that my contain a hidden hand grenade or Ebola virus.  So bug holes in high grade clear lumber is intolerable.  If I can't trim the holes out, the wood gets burned, no questions asked. I will not sell a high grade board that has a single bug hole in it, even if it's acceptable practice.  I speak from painful and costly experience on this. 

If the wood is spalted, ambrosia, pine borer or other wood that has bugs as a general public knowledge, then it can be sold, with full disclosure to the customer who therefore understands that the characteristic of the wood that makes it look unique were caused by bugs, and since the boards were properly sterilized, the bugs are dead.  So no problem, sometimes. 

I did have a case where I sold some bug hole pine to a guy who later told me, in a matter of fact way, that my wood had ants in it.  Upon questioning, we figured out he had placed the wood near a fire ant pile outside his garage and he jumped to the conclusion that the ants originated from the holes in the wood.

In order to combat bugs, we buy fresh logs, and inspect them for frass.  We mill them quickly and don't let them sit around.  We routinely clean up our logyard, scrape the sawdust and bark down to the dirt, and burn everything else.  If we cut into a log that has bugs, we excise that piece of wood and burn it.  We salvage the rest of the log, if possible.  When we custom saw for other people, their logs are inspected and if showing harmful bugs, we don't accept them.  Either way, we segregate customer logs from our logs, to keep down possible cross contamination.  That has happened to us, and it was ugly.

I have lost more money to bugs devaluing and destroying wood than to any other single cause, and we have learned to react to them with extreme measures. 

[jaciausa]

This has to be the only valuable "Soap" I will learn from! Thanks for sharing,

[flatrock58]

Yellowhammer.  Thanks for the insight.  I have only sold some beetle killed pine so far.  Mostly been cutting for myself.  I was given several red and white oak trees that were down maybe a year.  A lot of the wood has some ambrosia beetle holes in it.  Was planning to use it for my project and maybe sell some too.  I guess I can sell it as rustic wood.  Some is really nice quartersawn. 

[WDH]

If that red oak and white oak was not sprayed with borate once you sawed it, and if you just plan to sell it air dried versus kiln dried with a heat treatment, you do risk having PPB's in the wood, and that could cause some pain and suffering.  In Georgia, my experience has been that if you do not spray or do not kiln dry with a heat sterilization at the end, the risk of PPB's is a real issue. 

[flatrock58]

WDH.  Thanks for the input.  I am planning on building my solar kiln soon, and will also be looking at a way to sterilize wood.

[jaciausa]

Are there PPBeetles in Iowa? or are they a differant type of beetle? I found this article from  the Iowa Extension website that says they are not a problem.https://hortnews.extension.iastate.edu/powderpost-beetle

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

There are four or five technical errors in this document from Iowa Extension.

[jaciausa]

Thanks for response. I know you  know the facts about the beetles. I researched it a little more and found that the damage from the  false powderbeetle is one of the important bits of information left out. I had searched only on the PPB.

Is the FPPB responsible for Oak Wilt & would trees infected be quarantined or just a good standard? 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

It is not related to wilt

[Brad_bb]

Yes, PPB in Iowa.  I would imagine that they are everywhere. 

[MbfVA]

We have entertained a bunch of "bugs" in the basement supporting members of our National Register listed log cabin over the years, with plenty of pin sized holes to prove it. Every exterminator has told us that they will not bring the building down, that they are merely a nuisance, aesthetically.   The only truly effective removal strategy is to tent the building & use a gas not much different from the Nazi death camp variety, three days with security posted.

I wonder if heating up the basement to 150° for 24 hours would do it?   That's a lot less risk than a dangerous gas, and a lot cheaper.

31+ Years here, and we're still standing.  FYI the building was built in stages from the late 1920s to the late 30s.  The construction ranges from pure log, to slab sides, to conventional framing.   Because of leaks in the HVAC ductwork the basement stays dry and conditioned.  Mostly dirt floor.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Each crop of insects, if they are still active, makes tunnels in the wood.  These tunnels have a combined effect of weakening the wood, little by little.  If the structure is built six times stronger than needed, you can indeed lose a lot of strength.

[Kbeitz]

We have entertained a bunch of "bugs" in the basement supporting members of our National Register listed log cabin over the years, with plenty of pin sized holes to prove it. Every exterminator has told us that they will not bring the building down, that they are merely a nuisance, aesthetically.   The only truly effective removal strategy is to tent the building & use a gas not much different from the Nazi death camp variety, three days with security posted.

I wonder if heating up the basement to 150° for 24 hours would do it?   That's a lot less risk than a dangerous gas, and a lot cheaper.

31+ Years here, and we're still standing.  FYI the building was built in stages from the late 1920s to the late 30s.  The construction ranges from pure log, to slab sides, to conventional framing.   Because of leaks in the HVAC ductwork the basement stays dry and conditioned.  Mostly dirt floor.

They will bring a building down. I have proof of that...

[YellowHammer]

Why not spray the place with insecticide like Timbor or similar? It will not kill the insects in the wood, but will kill the ones who emerge, or the ones who come up to lay eggs, and will interrupt the life cycle of future infestations.

I would probably also treat the earthen floor, as well as spray with a long lasting professional grade contact pesticide.

The folks who are telling you the critters won't bring the place down are the ones who don't own it.  I have seen old barns and other structures brought down by bugs.  That's what they do. 

[Lookin4GoodLife]

So if you heat sterilize the boards when you kiln dry them, what stops bugs from getting in them later, say if you build a barn with these boards?

Edit:  Ah, just googled Timbor.  I'm guessing after the structure is built, you would treat it with Timbor to prevent future infestations. 

[WDH]

Yes.  If you saw the lumber, spray it right off the saw before you sticker it.  Then, you can air dry or kiln dry it.  They will not get in the wood.  However, if you plane it, you might have to re-treat because the borate does not penetrate too deeply in the wood and you can plane much of it off.  Bora-care is meant to penetrate more deeply, but it is quite expensive.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

I would not say all, but almost all lyctid powder post beetles come from wood that is infected and stored adjacent to uninflected wood.  So, with good concern and appropriate action, about where the dry, sterilized wood is stored, there is no risk and so no need to treat the wood when it is very wet with the mentioned borate.  Once dry, applying borate treatments are not too attractive as they rewet wood and that means only an outside barrier is treated and the rewetting can make checking quite a bit worse.  Also, note that the lyctid PPB F. 

Note that borate treated wood will leach out a lot of borates if exposure to liquid water.