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Author Topic: Helping a Friend  (Read 2336 times)

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Helping a Friend
« on: April 10, 2002, 07:20:55 PM »
Hello I would like some feed back if anybody has some. Here's a brief story ,no names . A friend of mine had a logger come to his house and make some really nice promises . The logs were worth up to 15,000 dollars , they would be taken out with as little mess left behind as possable , tops were to be claened of fire wood ,and branches to be stacked , then buyers would come in grade logs in company of owner. Then owner and loger would take bids . They then would devide the profits 50-50. After what looked like a truck load was cut , the logger had a truck come and haul the logs away . It was a full truck and half trailer , he brought a list of what logs were graded at none of them were ones , only a few twos , some were as little as ten board feet , after paying truck fees and spliting the money that was left my friend got three hundred dollars. When my friend called the mill they said logs were no good and some they couldn't even use they were laying on ground if my friend wanted them back to come and get them . This was not to the agrement so he told the logger to stop work , he then called a mill who came and looked at logs already cut and then marked the trees they wanted and offered 12,000 pay up front . He was happy . But they would not let the logger cut for them as he had no insurance ( my friend had asked him if he was insured and he said that he was before he let him start ) My friend felt obligated to the logger (God knows why) the logger said he had some one that would give the same . The new buyyers came and offered the same for the logs marked and would also pay the logger to cut for them . He then cut the rest of the logs .The story gets to be a real nightmare after this point ( I even left out some bad stuff in my story like logger hanging out day after day using the phone to many times to recall ) This took place starting the end of november the trees were down by january and are still laying there .Rumers of checks have been abundant , The logger was never paid , he claims half of logs are his , he bothers my friend for the rest of his money even after not honoring his aggrement and hireing on with other people. I've come too you asking for addvise or mabe leads to honest buyers. No one in area will give much for logs and even if they think about it they don't call back or back out. Please anyone can you help :'(

Offline Cedar Eater

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2002, 08:26:32 PM »
It sounds like there are no contracts here. :o If you've given the whole story, the only thing I could recommend is for your friend to market the logs through a newspaper ad or have them milled, properly air dried, possibly kiln dried and then market the lumber. If the logger won't find a legitimate buyer after all the ways he screwed this deal up, he could hardly be expecting much. Judge Judy would throw the book at him. :D

Cedar Eater

Offline Bud Man

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2002, 08:57:22 PM »
All sounds kinda fuzzy and the logger got his $300 or half as verbally agreed and apparently lied about insurance which would probably void any contract, verbal or otherwise.  Verbal contracts have different legal recourses in different states .  I believe like Cedar Eater said I would sell the wood to the highest bidder to come first and put the burden on the logger to resolve his differences in court !!  Whole thing sounds kinda bogus to me, next thing that'll hapen is the logger will have an injury claim or something, might be time to talk to an attorney and discuss liabilities of each party and devise a plan of action before things get sticky !!
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Offline Frank_Pender

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2002, 09:23:02 PM »

Be careful.  If the logger was really sharp  he would have a lean agianst the logs and mills would be obligated to pay him first, then the owner.  If your friend has an attorney it would be worth a short visit.  If done correctly the logger could also be held liable for the attorney fees and court costs involved as well as possible loss of value in the logs as to D grade.
Frank Pender

Offline Jeff

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2002, 03:04:06 AM »
REPORTING INCONSISTENT FOREST PRACTICES
1-800-682-4979

    Have you ever been concerned about a particular logging activity you’ve seen? Did you question the operation, or wonder about the future of that forest? Chances are, you probably did not know who to call to voice those concerns. Michigan’s Sustainable Forestry Initiative (SFI)SM Committee has created a process to help.

    The Sustainable Forestry InitiativeSM program requires that AF&PA member companies create a method in which the general public can get answers and voice their concerns on activities that they feel are inconsistent with the principles of the SFISM. In Michigan concerned citizens can now call a toll free number “1-800-682-4979” to get some answers.

    Responses to calls will vary from answering general questions to addressing site specific concerns via in-field inspections. If a field visit is required all affected parties are encouraged to participate, including the forester, logger, landowner and other resource professionals. The caller is also welcome to participate in the field visit. If corrective action is needed to remedy the situation an action plan is agreed upon, documented, and implemented. If a law has been potentially broken a regulatory or law enforcement agency may be called to assist. Lastly, a follow-up contact is made to the initial caller in order to explain the activity, and notify them of any corrective actions that were taken. Michigan’s forest industry has nothing to hide, and welcomes input from the general public. If you have a site-specific question or concern please call us at 1-800-682-4979.

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Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2002, 10:16:56 AM »
Yes call the above Logging Practices Complaint #

Where are you located in southwest Michigan?

It sounds like parties have "ripped off". You need to see an Attorney. A professional Consulting Forester should have been consulted before the timber harvest became such a "nightmare". The Attorney will now tell you to retain a consulting forester to access the damages.

There is quite a difference in in the timber values going from $12,000.00 before harvest to $300.00 after harvest.  Also only 10 board feet logs would have been obvious before harvest. Somethings wrong here! Not a good situation for a loggers image.
~Ron

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2002, 03:40:09 PM »
You would have 10 bd ft in an 8", 10' log.  That's the least of your worries.

You stated that new buyers came in and agreed to a price and to let the logger do the cutting.  They are the ones who should be paying the bills.  The landowner should have his cash in hand, and the logger has a beef with the new buyers and not the landowner.

If the logs have been removed and no checks have been delivered, that is theft.  Over $10,000 is grand theft, I believe.  That could be jail time.  

It is now lawyer time.  Tell them they will be sued for damages including attorney fees.  If the logger's equipment is on site, have it impounded.  Go after the buyers, and list the logger as a secondary.  The logger probably has very few assets,

Shoulda had a contract.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2002, 05:01:33 PM »
Thanks for all the comments. The story is more complicated than I managed to get across. There was contract. First one with logger as stated 50-50 but bid on before sold and value known by owner, left overs to be cleaned up , damage to land back bladed. Logger moved wood without grading and priceing first . Had told owner repeatedly that he had insurance.  Thats when owner put stop to cutting until they could work out something better. Then owner called mill got bid on remaning logs and standing trees , was give bid of 12,000  to be paid before removal of trees . Owner felt that he owed logger something because logger said that he was cheated to. The new mill would not let logger cut trees becuase he could not show proff of insurance. Now the logger takes a few days comes up with other buyers who say he can cut for them they will pay him finders fees and wage for cutting , and will pay owner for logs sum of 12,000 on top of that . So contract is signed by buyers logger and owner stating how much each one is going to get, a time that this will be done by is hand writin on edge of contract, in contract it is not noted when owner will get paid or when logs will be removed from property. Now the logger cuts rest of trees runs a few days over time it says he will cut by. Owner starts looking at contract closer notices that it says they have 0ne year to finish work. Owner start asking when will they go when will he get paid, the excuses fly rampaint. the buyers say can't find mill to buy logs . They start coming to property with other people to look at logs logger shows up and complains that he hasn't been paid and other things. (he did collect part of his money from buyers and they also paid for parts to fix his skider) everyone is always chased away. Rummers come to owner that the buyers have run scam in past . Goes like this buyyers leave logs lay until owners become distraught , owner finds a mill or other buyer ,the buyers claim owner broke contract sues owner for up to four times what contract says logs are worth. Owner has talked to lawyer word is sell take chance on law suit ,or get buyers to sign off. Buyers won't show up to talk , and avoid owner one says other one has check, one says quiting so it is other ones deal, owner calls phone number get someone new who says he's taking over business and want to make new contract. >:( OK owner is trying to sell no one buys are afraid off reprecusions legally and physically) ( there have been threats from logger to lots of people he drives by land and watches to see who is interested) In the mean time the owners have been told logger has filed for bankruptsy. Owners have beenthreatened with law suits too. Now the owners keep looking for someone to buy logs and are being told they are worth only 6,000 and even less because market is down ,and they have lain to long. Still no one comes with money. They all say can't get involved.

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2002, 05:15:47 PM »
A costly legal mess! Landowners should never get their timber and property values complicated this way by others.

Call Michigan Association of Timbermen's Complaint # and get an attorney to sort  this out legally.  
~Ron

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2002, 03:58:35 AM »
One of the worst ways to sell timber is on shares.  The logger is taking no risk, and the landowner is taking all the risk.  There has to be money paid up front, no matter who the buyer is.  At the least, a performance bond of several thousands of dollars to cover damages.  If there is no cash changing hands before the sale, run away from the deal.

I really don't know what to tell you to do.  Let the contract run, then sue the "buyers" is nearly the only recourse.  The damages have been done, the best logs have been shipped, and what is left over is probably the lower quality, which won't cover expenses.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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Re: Helping a Friend
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2002, 05:37:37 AM »
I think It's time to have a big fish fry, invite all the loggers involved and a few poleese to serve the plates and install the cuffs. Sounds like a textbook way not to sell logs, and greed and lazy quick profits sucked everybody into the  con.  Two can play at any game and I'd find a way to reverse the tables and might fire up a pot of tar and boil down a few chickens for a good supply of feathers to go with the tar. Hard to believe It still happens so frequently, this wont be the last unfortunately. Greed is mighty persuasive and mixed with a dose of ignorance of the proper ways gets expensive !!  "Save A Few Pennies Lose Alot Of  Dollar's"
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant


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