Timber-cutting patterns

[denis.beliauski]

Hi guys,

my name is Denis, I'm from Belarus, an owner of a small timber sawing and logging company.
We have started sawmilling a week ago and our operator doesn't have enough experience yet (as well as I don't have it, to be honest). 
I began to look around for some patterns (schemes) of how it is better to cut a log according to each specification.
For now I have found several of them. There is a log pictured, of a certain dia) and it is divided into a number of pieces (each of the pieces has its size)m displaying how it is better to cut it, if, for example 50-150 and 25-100 is needed.

The main reason to collect several of such schemes is to provide an operator with some basics of how it should work.
Im sure we'll throw them away in a month, but for now it will be a great thing for us to start with.

I'll really appreciate it someone can share it with me.

Thanks in advance.
With best regards,
Denis Beliauski. 

[Ron Wenrich]

What species are you cutting?  Hardwood patterns differ from softwood patterns, as do the specs.  Knot size is the defect in softwoods, and they diminish in size as you cut closer to the heart (smaller diameter in the branches).  Hardwoods are for show, and the number of clear cuttings decrease as you get further into the log.  That means you have to turn more often, and you want to move your heart into industrial wood, like pallet stock, ties or blocking. 

What sort of mill are you using, and what sort of support equipment do you have?  That can determine the best way to cut logs,.  In some instances, it may be worthwhile to take a heavy flitch, then resaw it into the desired size.  In other cases, it may be best to just saw it on the mill.  The other factor is what sort of markets you have. 

[denis.beliauski]

What species are you cutting?  Hardwood patterns differ from softwood patterns, as do the specs.  Knot size is the defect in softwoods, and they diminish in size as you cut closer to the heart (smaller diameter in the branches).  Hardwoods are for show, and the number of clear cuttings decrease as you get further into the log.  That means you have to turn more often, and you want to move your heart into industrial wood, like pallet stock, ties or blocking. 

What sort of mill are you using, and what sort of support equipment do you have?  That can determine the best way to cut logs,.  In some instances, it may be worthwhile to take a heavy flitch, then resaw it into the desired size.  In other cases, it may be best to just saw it on the mill.  The other factor is what sort of markets you have.

Hi Ron.
Thanks for your response.

1. Right now we deal with softwood (fir and pine).
2. We have purchased a bandmill (11kW, 6m road, it's made in Belarus, similar to WM LT20, but not so good for sure) with WM blades (1,09-35, double-hard).
3. We have a small wagon we use for transporting logs from log deck onto the mill road.
4. Our main customers are small building companies, the main sizes are 50-150, 25-100, 100-150, 150-150, 6 meters long, so right now we just cut the log into a flitch of a necessary size and then saw it into plants.

In order to make it clear, I have uploaded some photos and place them right here -

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/index.php?cat=35384   

Thanks again!

[Ron Wenrich]

You can insert your photos by hitting the link "Insert image in post".  I'll throw a few in. 



 



 

Now for my disclaimer.  I've been a hardwood sawyer, and I've worked circle mills.  So, some of my information might be off a little bit. 

It seems like you have a nice pile of logs in the background.  I guess you put the mill in that location to stay out of the weather.  I also imagine its going to get pretty warm in the summer.  Your product flow seems to be to bring a log in, roll it onto the mill, cut the log and stack onto the cart.  You'll push the cart outside, then restack it.  That's a loss of efficiency, and will cost you production and money. Also, you'll be shoveling sawdust.  It might not be a problem, but you're limited in space.  If its was me, I would want the mill higher so you don't have to stoop over too much.  It makes for a long day.

As for cutting patterns, you don't want to have spike knots in your planks.  It will make them weak.  So, that means you want to avoid having your knots in a 45° angle.  I would also avoid splitting a log in the heart, as that will give you warped lumber.  When I sawed softwoods, I would take a slab, and possibly a plank off one side.  That plank will have to be edged on 2 sides to make it the right width.  I would then flip it 180°.  Slab it and cut boards or planks to get your required width.  Then roll your log 90°.  You'll slab to get a flat side.  Then roll 180°.  I always took a slab, then live sawed the cant.  It seemed to give me the best yield and I was able to run the log through in the least amount of time. 

I'll move this to the sawmill section.  There's bandmill and softwood sawyers there.

[drobertson]

Howdy denis,  in regards to your main question as to milling patterns all I can add is there are very specific ways in optimizing yield, lots of these are computer generated by high tech scans of the logs.  As for me, I try to determine what the log will best yield, exa. knotty siding, clear straight framing, and high figured lumber with fancy grain for multiple furniture uses.  There are so many different ways to go about sawing out a given log I would not know where to begin in explaining, except to say start sawing and make a few notes as you go.
There will surely be plenty of input coming to you as this thread develops,    david

[justallan1]

Welcome to the forum, Denis.
I can't help much on milling patterns and me being new at sawing I feel that every log being different, the best you could do is study patterns to get a general idea.
I really like your mill set-up. For me that trolley system would be great.

Allan

[kensfarm]

I would start out simple..

Try to cut the biggest size cant out of the log first. 

I slab at 1 inch increments.. larger trees give you slab wood that can be trimmed into boards..  the small log pictured would only produce slab for firewood.

Once you have the cant.. then you can decide how to cut it into lumber.  Practice on some junk logs first to get the feel for the mill & sizing up a log to cut into a cant.

How cold is it there?  Good luck sawing!   Ken

[SawyerBrown]

Denis, I just want to say Welcome! 

Pete

[backwoods sawyer]

My tape measure is not metric so I am guessing your sizes are close to a dimensional 2x6
This center cant that is being referred to should be milled to a predetermined size, (the width of your lumber 100-150) mark it out on the small end of the log, then work out from those marks by marking out just the thickness of the "Jacket" boards one two or three. That will give you the opening face of the first two sides.

Make the first set of cuts flip it 180* then 90* square the top edge then 180* and drop down the thickness until done Put all jacket boards back on and edge down to desired sizes. 

One way to keep it simple is target only one size of boards for each log with a smaller fall back size to help with recovering smaller sized pieces, if you have five or six different sizes that you are trying to get out of one log it can make for more head scratching.

My disclaimer is reading and writing was not my best subject :-\ so hope you can understand my writing  ;D

[arnold113]

Welcome to the forum. Wish I could help you but I'm in the same spot as you. I'm new at sawing and I'm looking for the same info.

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry forum, Denis.

[Nomad]

     Welcome Denis.  Some of the sizes you listed are common construction stick sizes, correct?  (50x150, etc.)  Here, you could never compete with the larger mills for boards like that.  My suggestion would be to look at sizes people have a hard time getting.  Maybe larger timbers or possibly thinner, wider lumber like 25x300.  Here those wide boards, once dried and planed, cost far too much money.  Maybe it's the same in Belarus?

[1woodguy]

  hey welcome to the forum!
A few years ago I met a man who talked about Belarus if I recall its by poland

[denis.beliauski]

Hi, greetings from Belarus!

To Ron:
Yep, here in Belarus winter may be really severe so it's better to have a roof over your head, that's why we have put a mill in an addition.
As for summer, we are planning either to put some plantks on the ceiling rails and then put some sawdust there. It will make it warmer in winter and colder in summer, I hope.
Speaking about the product flow, I can't say nothing but agree, since it was the only opportunity to put a wagon there, in order to start production before spring. Later, I'm going to either to crash the outer wall and put a log deck just near the mill (in order to roll down logs directly on the mill road), or crash an inner wall and put n edging saw in an adjoining room and leave a wagon on its place.
For now the process seems to be absolutely unefficient, right.
As for the sawdust, it doesn't seem to be a serious problem, since we don't saw a lot of logs now.

[customsawyer]

Welcome to the forum.

[denis.beliauski]

Hi David!

Thanks, that's true - it is not possible to provide a pattern for each specific size and species and we will surely obtain experience and make lots of mistakes while sawing at the begining.
As for the log scans - it's a great thing, but we just cannot afford it to purchase right now.
Thanks, anyway!

[denis.beliauski]

Hello Allan,

Right, all these patters are mainly for getting an idea of how should be a log cut.
Also, it will help our sawmill operator to obtain a general idea of how it's better to saw for example a 20cm diameter log and a 40cm one. Either to cut 2 cants or it's better to saw several boards, etc.
Thanks for appreciation of our waggon system

Denis.

[denis.beliauski]

Hi Ken,

That's exactly the way we are sawing now.
At first we try to make the log lying straigt on the road (we fix its conicity by lifting a top with the help of short backing planks).
Then we take the most possible slim slab first, then cut a plank in order to make this side of a log flat.
Turn it 180, repeat the procedure, then turn 90 and cut several planks in order to make a cant of a certain (needed) size. Then turn it again 180 - a slab and go on cutting boards.
The most difficult thing here is to calculate how many good planks and boards can we saw till the cant is ready.
Now we just try to saw several 25mm planks from each side of a log, thus get a pile of such planks.

As for winter, usually its something like -5-10C in Dec, -10-20 in Jan and like -10 in February.
However, it was -25 for more than a half of January this time.

Thanks!
Best regards, Denis.

[BBTom]

Dennis, Does your mill have a measure on it that tells how far from the bed the blade is cutting?

If not make one that has a mark at 150mm above the bed then a mark at every 25mm above that.  Once you get your log opened up so that it sits flat on the mill bed, you will know just how many 25mm boards you can make till you get to the 150 x 150 cant.

Welcome to the forum

[Chuck White]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Denis!

Always good to get new members here.

[denis.beliauski]

backwoods sawyer, hi!

In my previous post, I have described our sawing process , so we are doing it almost as you have advised, thanks!
As for one size per log, agree - it's much more easier to cut a log into certain size boards, however, it seems that the yield will suffer, right? So I believe it is better (but more difficult, of coarse) to make a range of sizes from a log, in order to maximize the yuild.
As I have said, now we just saw 25mm planks, while making a cant and then cut a specific size from a log.

I understand you, can be sure Thanks for your help! 

[denis.beliauski]

SawyerBrown, arnold113, Magicman, 1woodguy, customsawyer, hi guys!
Thanks for your hospitality ;)

To 1woodguy:
Yep, Belarus is situated near Russia, Poland and Ukraine, your're right.

[denis.beliauski]

Hi Nomad,

your are absolutely right about the construction sizes.
Here, if you don't deal with added-value wood processing and work with softwood, it is almost impossible to run this business.
The thing is that we harvest wood ourselves, not purchase it, thus get it cheaper and can work with pine and fir now (even with construction sizes), in order to optimize our workflow and prepare our operator for work.
Then I'm planning to saw oak and other hardwood and produce furniture for retail trade (my father is a carpenter and deals with woodcarving for about last 20 years, I'm going to run this furniture busines together with him in the future).
Anyway, the following several months we will work with softwood. 

Best regards,
Denis.

[Ron Wenrich]

It may be worthwhile to diagram cutting patterns out on a piece of paper before you try them out.  Just make a circle, and scale things off.  You'll be able to see how you can fit things in a log.  The plus side to this is that it doesn't cost anything to do, and you can do it in the warm.  You'll find different scenarios of how to make different products.  You'll also be able to come up with a way of finding your best target numbers for starting your cuts to get your best yield.  I've done this in the past, and found it helped to plan before you saw.

When you get to sawing on logs, you'll have a plan of action, but you will find times that you will have to find an alternate course.  Sometimes unexpected defects will come up. 

When you get to hardwoods, your sawing style and thinking changes quite a bit from sawing dimension stock.  I also want to compliment you on your English.  Is it used much in Belarus? 

[denis.beliauski]

BBTom, hi!

As for the measuring tool, we have a simple ruler attached to the mill frame. However, we haven't marked it yet.

Here is a photo:



 

Thanks!
best regards,
Denis. 

[Too Big To Fail]

Hi Denis, welcome!
When I'm cutting pine I almost always cut 1 and 2 inch (25mm and 50mm).  My blade is roughly 1/8" (3mm).  I cut the 25mm and 50mm according to the same pattern so if there's a defect in a 50mm that I missed from the visible side I can saw it back into 2 equal 25mm.  That is to say I an actually cutting 25mm and 53mm (1" and 2 1/8").  There is a little loss in yield but it give my dimensional material a little more heft and I don't end up with any skinny boards when there is a knot or something in the underside of a 53mm and it won't make the grade.  If I was cutting to true 50mm and had to cut out a defect I would have a 25mm and a 22mm, which I don't like.  So my cut pattern on the cant, if I can translate to mm successfully, would be 25, 53, 81, 109, 137, etc.  Just keep adding 28mm each cut.

Anyway, that's how I do it for what is worth.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

If strength is important and also straightness, you want to saw the pieces so that they are flatsawn (the rings, when viewed form the end run from edge to edge and the left side is a mirror image of the right side).  Therefore, open the log to a face that it about 15 cm wide, full length.  You can skew the log so that you cut parallel to the bark.  This is important, as even a small amount of slope to the grain reduces the strength substantially.  Once you have this face sawn, turn the log 180 degrees and saw again parallel to the bark.  After this face is sawn, you can straighten the log and take out a wedge to make the two sides parallel.  The amount of sawing on these two faces is often such that the remaining can't is 15 cm or 20 cm thick, so it can be sawn directly into 2x6 or 2x8 pieces.  Note that the core containing the pith and the first 10 or so annual rings around the pith is inherently weak (it is called juvenile wood), warp prone and full of compression wood (weak and warp prone).  Oftentimes, it is better to include the pith in a small timber (10 x 10 cm or 15 x 15 cm) rather than make it into lumber that will warp and be weak (low value).

Make sense?

[Bill Gaiche]

Welcome aboard. You have a good start, especially in the weather you have to deal with. Just keep doing what you are doing and at the same time look at your operation with a open mind to changes that will make things easier and worth while in the long run. Trial and error is my best teacher along with the FF. Good luck. bg

[thecfarm]

denis.beliauski.welcome to the forum. Been cold here in the states too.
In that second picture is a pile of logs. Is that waiting for the sawmill?

[LittleJohn]

Here is a start on different pattern!

I typically use the Sawing for Grade method, help elimate the number of times you have to rotate the log



 

[two-legged-sawmill]

Hello Denis, Welcome to the Forum, great place for information and problem solving. I have been
around for a while and this covers about every topic on Forestry and beyond!
  If Belarus builds their sawmills as well as their Tractors you have a wonderful product. We have a large 4 wheel one with a big logging winch,must be near 25 years old now. Back in the 1980's I spent about two weeks in Czechoslovia
in Martin, Burno and Prague at Belarus factories, I loved it!
     With your determination and ambition I have no doubt about your success.
Good Luck with your venture.  Dan sr

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

I sketched two pictures that might help with the sawing technique I mentioned.  First, open the log on the clearest face and usually to a 6" or 15 mm wide face, running full length of the log.  This means that the log is tapered as need to get the full length, 6" wide piece.  (Note that some folks will saw this first piece as 5/4 instead of 8/4.)  Depending on log diameter, you may saw one or two (or gene three for a large log) pieces from this opening face.

Then turn the log 180 degrees.  This 180 rotation assures that will be get minimal warp in the kiln.  if the rings (when viewed from the end of the lumber) are not centered so that the right edge is a mirror image of the left edge, side bend warp is likely, especially with smaller logs.  Now, on the second face, you can open it also to 6", but then when you get two or three pieces off, the remaining cant will be a width that is not correct.  What I mean by not correct is that we want the final width of the can't (width is marked x" in the drawing) to have the pith centered and for the width to be the same as the width of lumber (often 6" or 15 mm, but your market will give you the size that customers like).  So, what we need to do is work backwards from the cant adding the lumber thickness and kerf for boards #4 and #3 on the drawing to get the opening position on face #2.



 

After we have taken on the lumber on faces 1 & 2 and the remaining can't is the correct size, we then begin to saw off lumber from the cant.  Again, some folks take 5/4 off first, if there is a market for this lumber.  Because the center of the log has juvenile wood and compression wood that shrink lengthwise, plus because the grading rules do not allow the pith in a piece of structural lumber because of the low strength, it is often advisable to saw a 4x4 or 6x6 (or other marketable size) from the center.  In this timber, keep the pith centered to avoid excessive warp.  Some people call this keeping the heart centered.  Note that except for the first piece sawn from each face of the cant, all the rest will not require additional edging.



 

[denis.beliauski]

It may be worthwhile to diagram cutting patterns out on a piece of paper before you try them out.  Just make a circle, and scale things off.  You'll be able to see how you can fit things in a log.  The plus side to this is that it doesn't cost anything to do, and you can do it in the warm.  You'll find different scenarios of how to make different products.  You'll also be able to come up with a way of finding your best target numbers for starting your cuts to get your best yield.  I've done this in the past, and found it helped to plan before you saw.

When you get to sawing on logs, you'll have a plan of action, but you will find times that you will have to find an alternate course.  Sometimes unexpected defects will come up. 

When you get to hardwoods, your sawing style and thinking changes quite a bit from sawing dimension stock.  I also want to compliment you on your English.  Is it used much in Belarus?

Hi Ron,

Thanks for a compliment - it is not really used in Belarus much, since there are two state languages: belorussinan and russian. However, it is the most "learning" foreign language in our schools and universities.
As for me, I've been studying English for about 15 years, but haven't used it at all last several years.
Absolutely agree with you on the handmade patters and will surely try to make some. Thanks!

With best regards,
Denis.

[denis.beliauski]

Hi Denis, welcome!
When I'm cutting pine I almost always cut 1 and 2 inch (25mm and 50mm).  My blade is roughly 1/8" (3mm).  I cut the 25mm and 50mm according to the same pattern so if there's a defect in a 50mm that I missed from the visible side I can saw it back into 2 equal 25mm.  That is to say I an actually cutting 25mm and 53mm (1" and 2 1/8").  There is a little loss in yield but it give my dimensional material a little more heft and I don't end up with any skinny boards when there is a knot or something in the underside of a 53mm and it won't make the grade.  If I was cutting to true 50mm and had to cut out a defect I would have a 25mm and a 22mm, which I don't like.  So my cut pattern on the cant, if I can translate to mm successfully, would be 25, 53, 81, 109, 137, etc.  Just keep adding 28mm each cut.

Anyway, that's how I do it for what is worth.

Hi!

So you mean that usually you do cut the following sizes, right: 25, 53, 81, 109, 137, etc. Okay, but the matter is that if you have several different sizes in your specification (for example: 43x143 and 23x98mm), then it should be sawn into a cant of a necessary size (143 cm, e.g.), and I cannot really understand of how it's better to pre-calculate how to cut the 23x98 from the rest.
Right now, the only way for me to saw different sizes from a log, is to measure a log before cutting each plank. And I will get an unedged plank that should be edged afterwards.
I did my best to explain what I mean

[denis.beliauski]

Welcome aboard. You have a good start, especially in the weather you have to deal with. Just keep doing what you are doing and at the same time look at your operation with a open mind to changes that will make things easier and worth while in the long run. Trial and error is my best teacher along with the FF. Good luck. bg

Hi Bill,

Thanks, I'll do my best.
Good luck to you as well!

Best regards,
Denis

[Too Big To Fail]

I think I follow you Denis, With the cut pattern I described I can get get 2 sizes (25 and 53) without any head-scratching.  If I'm cutting 6/4 (+/- 38mm?) I would have a different pattern.  I find it's easiest to cut to a single pattern per cant for efficiency.  Sometimes I do need to cut different dimensions from a cant and then I start usually start counting on my fingers  :D and often this will mean there is a sacrifice cut somewhere along the line.

[LittleJohn]

...I find it's easiest to cut to a single pattern per cant for efficiency.  Sometimes I do need to cut different dimensions from a cant and then I start usually start counting on my fingers  :D and often this will mean there is a sacrifice cut somewhere along the line.

COMPLETELY AGREE

When you start mixing sizes (thickesses), the numbers can get complicated.  I typically forget to account for a saw cut somewhere in the stack up.

[two-legged-sawmill]

Hello Denis and all the other Forum members that may have spotted my major
goof! Why did I mistake Our Zetor Tractor for a Belaras? This morning I am walking by our 16145 Zetor and a big light bulb lite up, and it dawned on me that I had Mistook Belaras for our Zetor in the Post a few days ago. Then it came to me that the distributor I got them from handle both brands, thats what I REST my case on. Of coarse if I am beaten up a little I'll understand.
Dan sr

[beenthere]

Hello Denis and all the other Forum members that may have spotted my major
goof! Why did I mistake Our Zetor Tractor for a Belaras? This morning I am walking by our 16145 Zetor and a big light bulb lite up, and it dawned on me that I had Mistook Belaras for our Zetor in the Post a few days ago. Then it came to me that the distributor I got them from handle both brands, thats what I REST my case on. Of coarse if I am beaten up a little I'll understand.
Dan sr

We'll let you off the hook easy, if you will post some pics of the Zetor   ;D ;D

[barbender]

I have always used a set of "target" numbers that are based on the size of the desired product, and the size of the log being sawn. If I am sawing 1 1/2"x5 1/2" boards (sorry for the imperial measurements) I want to end up with a cant that is 5 1/2" wide to saw boards out of. So, I take the 5 1/2" + 1 5/8" (the extra 1/8" to account for kerf) =7 1/8 +1 5/8" =8 3/4" +1 5/8" =10 3/8" +1 5/8"=12". So the numbers for the sides you are working down to a cant would be 5 1/2, 7 1/8, 8 3/4, 10 3/8, 12. Then when you are sawing that cant into boards, you have another set of numbers- 1 1/2, 3 1/8, 4 5/8, 6 1/4, 7 7/8, 9 1/2, 11 1/8. Having these prefigured keeps you from trying to do math in your head while you are sawing and eliminates a lot of mistakes. I hope this makes sense, it is a lot easier to demonstrate with a log on the mill.

[Small Slick]

I am brand new to milling. I am sawing strictly to make an unusual flooring  product for myself. So what I did was make templates to help me decide how many  boards 6.125 x 2.375 I could get put of a set of smaller logs. This has been a big help largely because I am not complicating it by trying to get as many boards as possible just as many boards of a specific size as possible.

I recommend making templates.

John

[5quarter]

Hi Denis...sounds like you're getting great help. I can't add much, but I have to remark on you're command of English. Are you a native of Belarus? an ex-patriot? you write English better than many English speakers ;) Very impressive.

[kensfarm]

The most difficult thing here is to calculate how many good planks and boards can we saw till the cant is ready.

If you look at the menu above..  select "Extras"..  then "ToolBox"..  there are diff. calculators that can help.  Ken

[two-legged-sawmill]

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21876/Zetor_1.jpg[/img]

tp://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21876/Zetor_1%7E0.jpg[/img]

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21876/Zetor_4.jpg[/img]

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21876/Zetor_2.jpg[/img]

[two-legged-sawmill]

Hello everyone, got the pictures on previous post, don't know what I did to get there.   Here is an old saying "To teach an Old Dog, a new trick" not an easy call. As in the pictures, plenty of snow, cold weather and uncertainty.
Maybe Jeff ought to have a private Go To Meeting.XXX , that would give him some sleepless nights. Enough of my difficulties for now!
   Have a great Valentine Day and night.  Dan sr

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Maybe Jeff ought to have a private Go To Meeting.XXX , that would give him some sleepless nights.

Be careful what you wish for.  :D :D :D

[thecfarm]

This will work for the pictures.


I like to go to whatever post or start a new topic first to include a picture.Go to your gallery,it will open in a new window.Click onto your album,then click onto whatever picture you want,it will get bigger,than scroll down a little to find,Insert Image In Post,click onto that,click Yes and that is it. Some have to copy/paste the link to work.I like to hit the enter key at least once or twice to move the picture down away from what I am typing. The enter key really helps to leave some white space if posting more than one picture. Somewheres I think it says to add 10,000 to your user number or something like that to make a clickable icon to your gallery under your user name. Use the preview button to see how it looks and modify it if needed.

Give it a try,I want to know how many hp that tractor is.

[denis.beliauski]

Hello Denis and all the other Forum members that may have spotted my major
goof! Why did I mistake Our Zetor Tractor for a Belaras? This morning I am walking by our 16145 Zetor and a big light bulb lite up, and it dawned on me that I had Mistook Belaras for our Zetor in the Post a few days ago. Then it came to me that the distributor I got them from handle both brands, thats what I REST my case on. Of coarse if I am beaten up a little I'll understand.
Dan sr

Right, it's not a Belarus tractor for sure
Can't say that our tractors are really good (if to compare them with deere's and jcb's), but they are cheap enought and it works here, in Belarus.
I believe, when they export them, then the quality of the product is higher (as it's usual here, in Belarus).