Woodmizer LX55 Electric motor

[Old Greenhorn]

AL, can you say that again in English for the common man? :D I had suggested in an earlier post that a breaker with an in-rush current time delay might be a solution. Do you have an opinion on that?
 Btulloh, I am not pointing fingers at anyone, just in case somebody thought that. This is an engineering problem, I think. I sympathize with the mill owners, but I also understand that WM is a solid company with good design skills. This is an issue they are trying to figure out properly I am sure. I have been through many things like this in my career. No finger pointing because it is counter-productive, just open minds trying to think it through. This 'thing' has a solution out there somewhere that will make life better for everyone, I have no doubt.

[Billmaz]

After that report about the clutch, it just sounds like the startup torque required by the mill is higher than the startup torque supplied by the electric motor.  Not an electrical problem at all.  Seems out of character for the company could make a design mistake like that.  They are too good for that, but things do happen.  Or perhaps this particular mill (and the other one exhibiting this behavior) has some defect that's creating the need for additional torque.  Anyway you slice it, it just doesn't sound like something WM would miss.  And yet . . .  we are here.

Kind of maddening, but at least it seems to be headed for a resolution.  I'll be looking forward to hearing the end of the story.  "And they lived happily ever after."  

YES! Yes thank you @btulloh. I've been suggesting that there might be a design flaw. You know it happens to the best of companies. I just can't wait any longer for WM To figure it out. They just keep telling me I don't have enough power and they haven't had problems with any other units. Now I know that isn't true thanks to this forum. I can't get more power. Talked to an engineer from my power company about getting more power. It's not possible. So unfortunately I'm going with gas now. 😞 

[Bruno of NH]

I believe the mill is a European design . 
They run lots of mills on electricity. 
I'm wondering if this has something to do with it.
Their power at residential property seems more powerful than ours.
That's from watching U-movie sawmill stuff from Europe. 
Just my 2 cents

[btulloh]

Even from a dead stop, the torque required to get a couple band wheels, a v belt, an idler, and a fully tensioned band is  pretty minimal.  Just by turning by hand should give you a good indication of whether it feels "about right" or "pretty stiff" (industry standard terms for characterizing these things).  If it's "too stiff" as an assembly, how do the individual parts feel?  Adding elements to see when things go from "about right" to "too stiff" (on the standard scale as defined by the Department of Band Mill Weights and Measures in Gaithersburg, MD).

Does this mill have blocks or rollers for guides?  Blocks are just disc brakes and can be a problem if set too close - but that's a pretty obvious thing.

Even from a dead stop it should start fine on a 10hp motor.  There's just not that much inertia and resistance to overcome if all the components in the path are OK.

It would be possible to measure and chart the torque curve from start-up to full speed, and compare it to the motor torque curve (which is probably published by the manufacturer).  But the "just right" and "too stiff" assessment should be good enough.

I'm also curious why someone has a clutch on their mill, but it's not on these.  The only reason to have a clutch should be remove power from the blade without cutting the power to the motor and coasting to a stop.

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night.  But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

[Southside]

btulloh brings up an interesting observation.  What about the brakes?  Do these mills have a brake of some kind and is it dragging too hard?

[Walnut Beast]

Does that electric motor have soft start 

[Walnut Beast]

Does that electric motor have soft start

I meant to say magnetic starter

[Al_Smith]

I just guessed at around 30 amps running which should be number 10 copper wire .Since it's a 50 amp breaker that would be number 6 .
Usually the motor would be protected by the over load contacts on the magnetic starter .However recently with the influx of electrical components from the Pacific rim it's hard to determine what it has . I'd say it's safe bet to say names like Square D ,Cutler-Hammer etc. could not be found any where on this thing .
150 amps sounds like a lot of starting amps to me .Some of the electronic type motor starters these days have adjustable over loads and it could be faulty .They just are not as robustly made for the most part these days .Again attempting to trouble shoot almost anything over the internet for the most part is an exercise in futility .
If the feed line is real long that alone could be the problem .The formula to figure out voltage drop  is so long I won't even attempt to explain  it  .Rather than redesign the wheel my advice it to get with WM .If it doesn't work from my perspective it's on them to make it run correctly .They make a quality product but every so often one slips under the radar .It happens .

[tacks Y]

crmorse, Be careful starting motor with out blade tight and then snugging up. Sounds like a good way to jump or break a blade.

[Billmaz]

btulloh brings up an interesting observation.  What about the brakes?  Do these mills have a brake of some kind and is it dragging too hard?

Oh now that someone else has a design problem theory and another mill is doing the same thing you seem a little more open minded @southside 🤣 really not here to argue at all. Just wanted to see if anyone else suffered same illness. Believe me I'm not bashing woodmizer it's just a proven fact everyone has a hiccup once in a while. Doesn't mean their product is bad. When this thing runs it's amazing. I actually am very good at troubleshooting things. It's a gift and a curse. Have a great day. 👍. 

[crmorse]

Lots of various questions posted. I'll answer as many as I can remember.

My panel circuit breaker isn't tripping.  (old worn out fuse on a drop box did blow so I just removed that and wired straight to the panel as I should have done the first time)

The control panel has a WEG 80A thermal compensated breaker & motor contactor. Wired very clean and professional. No shortcuts there

Motor is not soft start but has a very distinct two stages. At first start RPMs sound about half and current is steady at 120A until the centrifugal switch finally throws and RPMs jump up to full speed and current instantly settles to 17A.

When ice cold the first startup takes 15-20 seconds. After using the saw for a few cuts its down to 1-3 seconds.

No brakes. Blade guides are rolling wheels. Tension and drag is just over "about right." by my calibrated flick-o-the-wrist gauge.

I haven't heard back from WM yet but I did go ahead an order some 400uF caps to try out. It won't hurt anything and at $20 it's a cheap test.

[Southside]

Oh now that someone else has a design problem theory and another mill is doing the same thing you seem a little more open minded @southside 🤣 really not here to argue at all

btulloh opened up another possibility which made me ask about brakes, which it appears do not exist on these mills.  Your claimed issue has been voltage drop, which would still not be a sign of an over drag issue caused by brakes, seized bearing, or other mechanical malfunction / design issue, I simply asked if they exist and have been eliminated from the list of potential issues.   

[Billmaz]

Zero drag. I can spin wheels with one finger. BUT...if i take vbelt off it starts like a champ! And the more i use it the better it starts. Like motor needs warmed up. It's crazy. 

[Southside]

I just reached out to a couple of higher up WM managers that I have worked with in the past and let them know about this thread in case they have not been made aware of the issue and can lend resources to assist with resolving it.  

[Al_Smith]

The "two stages " is simply going from the start winding to the run winding by way of a  centrifugal start switch which is part of the motor .If the switch becomes struck it will burn out the start winding .If it releases too early the motor will not have much torque and the amperage will really jump up . What that specific RPM might be I'd have to research it .In a pinch you can use a timer in place of a mechanical start switch .This switch is often a problem but the only way to actually tell is to disassemble the motor to take a look see .Then if it is defective then to find a replacement .There most be a zillion manufacturers of these things in the Pacific rim area .Believe me I've seen them come from all over the entire world except Antarctica .--more>

[Billmaz]

One of the biggest issues is this motor is new to WM so no schematics are available. It's made in Italy. The tech that came to put new motor on said he's never seen one before.

[btulloh]

One of the biggest issues is this motor is new to WM so no schematics are available. It's made in Italy. The tech that came to put new motor on said he's never seen one before.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . .  .   That sounds like important info.

[Al_Smith]

Then it's motor design to factor in .Unless this motor is totally sealed it is on a band saw mill,sawdust  .Sawdust can jamb anything up tight as a bulls butt in fly time .It could be a sealed motor bearing the seal let go and blowed grease on the motor shaft jambing up the start switch . 

[Billmaz]

Well...good theory but 2 motors? What's the chance of that? Then again ya never know. 

[Al_Smith]

One of the biggest issues is this motor is new to WM so no schematics are available. It's made in Italy. The tech that came to put new motor on said he's never seen one before.

The Italians are not noted for good electrical components ,cheap not good .They have some weird voltages like 208 /365 Wye .
Although it's none of business if WM is having a problem it might behoove them to replace said motor with a name proven brand like Baldor or something .More costly certainly but so is replacement under warrantee work not to mention customer dissatisfaction .It's very important to keep a good reputation .

[Bruno of NH]

That was my point in an earlier post.
EU  design motor
I would bet all my grits and $300 That's the issue

[crmorse]

No weird voltages on the nameplate or crappy parts to be found. I really think the motor mfg just botched the startup cap sizing calcs. 


 

 

 

[muggs]

My money is on the caps being inadequate. Can't wait to see what happens when the new caps arrive.

[Walnut Beast]

I would also think the start capacitor is too small.

I converted my mill to electric, 7.5hp 3 Phase motor that runs on single phase with the third leg produced with a capacitor.

As a sawmill is a hard start with all the heavy wheels it need to start turning, band tension,.... i needed 1200uf starter capacitors and a 80uf running capacitor.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=109583.msg1713027#msg1713027

Just to add, if you ones tried electric you won't go back to gas!! it's worth all the money and trouble to make it work

Your probably right

[Billmaz]

I'm sticking with my gut on this one. It's under powered. Or it needs a clutch to engage blade after motor is at full speed. I hope you get yours running @crmorse.