Watcha' sellin' ? (And how are you selling it?)

[Old Greenhorn]

I've been thinking about starting this thread for a while now. Lots of members here make stuff for sale, everything from carvings and turnings to benches, tables, and large furniture, even woodsheds. For myself I need that income to pay bills, buy tools and materials, and keep living in a meaningful way. For others it's either the same, or for some extra cash, or a diversion, self supporting hobby, or some other reason.
 I thought a collective discussion thread where we can share how we sell our products and/or how we decide what to  make for sale, would be both interesting and helpful for many of us. Quite a few of us have shared some of these thoughts in many other varied threads around these forums, but having one just for sellers might prove interesting.
 I have recently (this summer) begun selling at a few shows and found there are a lot of things to be done to present a good image that generates a sale. There are also a lot of considerations to selecting the 'right fit' shows for any individual. Some of our members do high end juried shows and some sell at flea markets, community events, and craft shows. Some sell only by word of mouth or other local network.
 When I started the "Watcha makin'?" thread just over a year ago, I had no specific question or story to kick it off with. This one is the same. I just wanted to open the door to a conversation and have it center on everyone's work, not mine. I'm just getting started trying to figure this out. So think of this as a "what works for you?" thread as it applies to selling your wares.

 All I have to start off with is a photo of my little booth at the show this past weekend before the rain started.



 

 I turn the floor over to y'all. Watcha sellin', and how are you sellin' it?

Tom

[aigheadish]

I like the thread Tom, let's hope others contribute too!

The photo you've got reminded me of a comment you made that I meant to reply to. You said no one looks up to see your signs in the booth. I'm typically pretty observant and we go to a fair amount of flea market type places with the canopies like you have. Every time I'm in one I'm kind of forced to look down while I duck under the edges or crossbeams within. I'm kind of tall so that may be part of it but I know I usually don't look up much in one of them, other than to see if I'm walking into it, and crashing my head parts into the roof. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Yes, I am about 6' (and shrinking) and I do the same thing. So I am thinking I will mill up some 1x2"x11' or so and clamp them between the front and back canopy legs at around or just below eye level. Maybe one across the back, depending on the show and setup. Then I can staple my information signs to those and have them in view. Those bars would also help keep the side walls from blowing in during nasty weather like last weekend. I only put sides on for rain, otherwise I like having things wide open and in full view.
 I try to learn and/or improve something every show.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

 A timely post since I just lost my most dependable advertising source yesterday and need to replace it with something new.

 I mostly sell sawing services and go saw peoples logs into lumber at their site with maybe 10-15 % of my customers bringing a log or two here for me to saw but mostly I go to them. My best advertising source was a local area free classified paper called The Ol Mountain Trader. People called in or e-mailed their ads for what they had or wanted free of charge and vendors like me posted paid service ads and such. I had a small ad in the Services Section that cost me $10/month. The paper was sold at convenience stores, grocery stores, WalMart, etc. for $1 each and most important it was right in the middle of my target area to travel and saw.

  I make a few primitive live edge mortise and tenon style benches, a few bluebird houses/nesting boxes, crates, tomato stakes, raised bed planters and my own composting toilet. I make the toilets and planters mostly on demand and occasionally take the small items and benches to local flea markets or special seasonal trade shows. Mostly at the shows I give out business cards and pick up some future sawing jobs.

  I also saw and sell a little poplar or spruce lumber from trees on my property and sell a few live edge air dried slabs to local woodworkers.

 I leave business cards on the counters and half page flyers on bulletin boards at local stores. I have a website but people tend not to read the location details and I still get calls from people outside my target sawing area.


 

  The photos are my wife's work and I take a few of them along and sell for her when I can.

 I am a dinosaur and do not do Facebook and have not used local newspaper classified ads very often but I may have to do that more often now to replace my lost trader paper.

[thecfarm]

I have not sold any wood products.
But use to have a greenhouse and veggie business. Wife did some craft shows. I tagged along for a few.
Most important thing we found is to be out front where customers can see you!!
We had more than one vendor, come up to us and say, I hear you have a hot spot.
I would not bother to tell them why. We are not in the back reading a book or on our phones.
We are in the front, saying at least hi, to people or making eye contact. that's what makes the customer feel like stopping and looking.
I have walked around and see what other vendors do.
If my wife and me was talking to each other when a customer would come by, we would stop and talk to them!! Or setting up, stop and talk to the customer!!
Wife sold soap at one show. She was right outfront having people smell the bar of soap. It worked. She sold a lot of soap. Then another person would stop because they would hear the customer say something about the soap. Then I would grab that customer and start to talk. And it would kinda snowball from there, we would have a crowd around our booth.
Be on your feet when a customer comes by!!!!

[aigheadish]

Excellent points cfarm! The amount of flea markets I go to where the booth owners are just sitting in back on their phones is amazing, especially when a simple "Hello! Let me know if you have any questions about anything." is so easy. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I think that's called 'salesmanship' Ray. They don't teach it in schools anymore. Back in the 80's when I did tools sales they hired a consultant to work with us in the booth at shows to show us how to engage customers. I really didn't need the help, but the young assistant I had did. We worked on a lot of small details, choosing the right words, getting to the point quick, figuring out what the customer was looking for and then tailoring our words to match their needs. After a while it becomes automatic. If you don't talk to them, you wasted the encounter you paid for by having the booth. I confess, I sit in the chair very little, but if/when it gets really slow I will sit for a bit and maybe eat something. I rarely get a full lunch in me and have to eat it on the drive home. Often I stand out in the aisle away from the booth, wait till somebody wanders by and stops to look in, then I come up from behind them and say "If there is anything that catches your eye I'd be happy to pull it out so you can look it over." The majority say "no thank you, but your work is beautiful!" or something like that and I now have them in a conversation and can find out what would really interest them. This often comes around to doing a custom build and then they ask me for a card so they can call me. Even if it doesn't wind up with anything I might at least learn what people are looking for so I can make one for the booth. I am looking for ideas from them. 
 It's important to not seem to be aggressive, just friendly. I too try to walk the show before it gets rolling, meet a few other interesting vendors, talk about that particular show, or the stuff they make, and later during the show I will refer people to them when it fits. That wood turner I met had a lady ask him about making something for her, and he told her it wasn't his thing, but he sent her right over to me and we talked and I answered her questions for a while. That may turn into a commission job at some point. 
 But it all comes down to talking to folks. You get about 15 seconds to engage them and if you let that slide by, you've lost a future client. My booth is cluttered so I have to get folks INSIDE to look around, otherwise they stand in the aisle and peer in and they miss a lot of stuff. Some humor helps too. I had some fun with those beer caddies. Every once in a while a guy would ask me if those beer cans went with the caddy. I would say "I'll tell you what, if you buy one, and you can lift the thing up with the cans in it, and you STILL want the cans, you can have those for no extra charge." They would look at me perplexed and I would invite them to 'try to lift it'. When they did they would laugh as they realized the cans were empty. I just say "Yup, that's some REALLY light beer there". I didn't sell any of those, but we had fun with it and it always got a laugh and sometimes attracted a few more folks in to see what was going on.
 Also in my case I have to teach folks about what they are looking at, explain the woods in them and how they are made. Nobody reads signs, I am learning. So many folks asked if I do custom work while standing next to a sign that says "I prefer to do custom items to fit your exact requirements".
 Good Gosh, if I just 'sat there' it would be a long day with very little gained. The show a few weeks back I chatted with the gals in the next booth just to pass the time (they sold aroma therapy stuff, not my thing) and they asked questions about my stuff off and on when things got slow. I wound up selling them a nice sewing table and getting a commission job for a custom Live edge shelf.
 If you are there, you should be present and make good use of the time.

[Tom K]

I think I fall more into the "self supporting hobby" group. I started working in my dads shop when I was around 10. By the time I was a teenager I was making things for my grandma to give as holiday gifts. I have seemed to always pick up a little paying work here & there to help buy new tools all the way through my 20's. From my 30's through now how many paying jobs I do depends totally on my work load outside the shop.

I have made and sold things as small as bowls & turned coasters, up to a large whole wall bookcase with rolling library ladder. Everything I have sold has been commission work picked up by work of mouth. I have turned down way more work then I have done due to time constraints, especially kitchen jobs. I have made a hand full of kitchens, but none have been sold.

I have come to the conclusion, for me at least, small project are hard to make any money on when I put any value to my time. Any small stuff I sell I just look at as a little extra cash in my pocket and don't look at the hours spent. I have done a few custom built-ins lately, and those are they type of project I like. Stuff you cant find in any store.

Going forward though some of this may change. Now that the shop if done, my wife has been pushing me to "retire" so I can get more projects done at home. If/when this happens I will have to rethink marketing & sales of items from my multiple "hobbies"

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

  I agree on the eye catcher and getting folks to talk. I sometimes take my toilet seat just to get people looking. They see it and laugh but then I tell them the house goes with it if they need one at their camp or barn or such. Sometimes people sit on it and take a picture. It often does get them thinking about their camp or cabin with no water and sometimes they will order one.

  I have a poster I tack up that says "Blue Lives Matter" in big bold letters then underneath it says "Buy your homeless bluebird  place to live". That catches their eye and I sell more bluebird boxes than anything else but also because they are cheap. I also have a couple of pictures of nests with eggs, baby bluebirds in the nest and adults entering to show they do work - which they do. When they ask I tell them the kind of places to put them out.

  I often tell people walking by "Come on over and sit down. Rest your weary bones. Test out the bench. I bet it fits." Sometimes a tired shopper will sit and talk for several minutes. The Lichtenberg engraving on the benches get a lot of comments and questions and I have to explain that but it stops them and opens the door to more discussion.

  I hate a pushy salesman and I know personally I like the things I bought (Because I made the decision) and I hate the things people sold me (where they talked me into buying something I really did not want). Tell them about the wood and the process and answer their questions but don't push or you will end up making them mad and/or driving them away. Like in a department store if the clerk hovers over you like he thinks you're going to break or steal something I'll probably leave soon where a friendly "Let me know if I can help you" then they go on about their work is greatly appreciated.

[Larry]

Well I suppose ya could give it away....  A support auction for the Eureka Springs School of The Arts which I support.
Mad Hatter Auction
Bid often and I will let you know when to quit....promise.  The auction also gets my name out there.

Or you could get on local TV.
Our Art, Our Time, Our Region art exhibition returns to Walton Arts Center - YouTube
My lamp sold a few minutes after the doors opened.  It will remain in the art gallery until the exhibition ends at the end of October. 

There are non profit co-ops around with low commissions and the members network. 

I tried craft shows but I'm sorta lazy and didn't like the time and effort to sell.

[Crusarius]

Hmm I guess I will bite, especially since my holiday trinkets thread must be in the wrong spot its not getting much attention.

So, after getting into the CNC world with my homemade CNC's I then started using them to produce what I would call trinkets.

I make anodized aluminum emergency contact tags, and lighted acrylic signs. I am setup to engrave on any material. Currently my CNC is 5'x5'. It gives me lots of room for dog tags

With the holiday season upon us I am making up some lighted acrylic signs for the next couple shows I was told I am participating in.



 

 

The acrylic still has the protective film on one side so its frosted. Once removed its crystal clear. I actually purchase a small 3018 CNC and take it to the shows with me. I offer personalization and customization on everything I sell. Each of the acrylics takes less than 10 minutes to cut.



 

The emergency contact dogtags turned into an instant hit with finger lakes 4x4 club. Everyone was trying to figure out how we could have emergency contacts with us on trail raides. This was my solution.

I am branching out more and always expanding my library. all of the artwork I have is produced by my wife and I. This way I do not have to deal with copyright issues or ppl claiming I stole their work.

This is just a fraction of what I have running through my head. I actually picked up a 18" round piece of glass from the side of the road that is going to have something kool done to it. No idea what yet. But its gonna be kool

[Old Greenhorn]

I am currently working on a commissioned stereo table stand for my best client. It's a Chistmas present for his daughter and when he asked a rough price I put it somewhere around $250. or so, then he asked for live edge on the top, then a float coat of epoxy. I didn't promise the live edge, but added $150 or so for the epoxy work.
So last night I am working on this (I already have about 80 hours in it) and I start thinking how I am not making any money at all on it. Now a lot of my labor hours are for repair and salvage work on the wood before I can really get started, so that is kind on on me. But I started to realize that when I figure costs I never really figure the value of the wood. My prior project was cherry and if I had bought that cherry from HD it would have been $145.00, not counting the ERC I used for trim. I am charging $250. for the unit, completed. I think it took me about 50 hours to make the unit, because I am old, slow and not very good. I don't charge for those qualities.  For my current project, the wood would be well in excess $250.00 if I paid $8./BF and $434.00 if it were $14./BF. This one uses 8/4 Ash FAS, 6/4 RO F2S, and 4/4 Maple FAS. Seems HD gets like $14./BF for all hardwood S4S in general, give or take. So Charging $450. or so for a unit that uses $434. in material doesn't sound like the best business move.
Now I know these clients don't realize the value of this wood when it has been properly prepared and I also realize it is my time to do all that pre and care work, but the bottom line is what the client pays or more accurately, what they are willing to pay.
I guess I am having a bit of a crisis of faith here. If I can't charge for the fair value of what I am selling and I am basically giving away my labor, what is the point? I can't seem to develop a market for what I make that is willing to pay the price of admission. I really don't want to load my truck, drive to NYC and try to peddle my stuff the the shops down there and I can't figure another plan.

So my question here is: When you folks build stuff, how do you figure the value of the material that you actually create, not the stuff you buy?  Can you charge the real value? I see a lot of our crew here that can get Walnut easily and readily and make benches and such they sell at a price I would never consider because I have yet to get my hands on any walnut. I get it, it's available to you, but still, try buying walnut FAS and see what the price is or buy it in 8/4 and see what that price tag looks like.
All I know is, as hard as I work, the invoices really don't make me feel very good about things in general. How do you guys look at and deal with this issue?

[Crusarius]

I stopped trying to do anything like that for just that reason. no one understands the price of true craftsmanship. The only way to make money on any of your pieces is peddle them in NYC. this area is not very conducive to selling at fair prices for the craftsman or for the purchaser.

The best way to start making money on them is to tell them the REAL price. that will get rid of the tire kickers and maybe get some real ppl in the door. But until your name is out there, you are nobody to the ones with money.

It is a very tough position to be in. Part of the reason I started making the cheap acrylic signs. I can sell them cheap enough ppl will buy them but still high enough to make a profit.

[Ianab]

" So my question here is: When you folks build stuff, how do you figure the value of the material that you actually create, not the stuff you buy? "

Interesting question. There might be 3 different valuations you could put on a board.

One would be your Cost to Produce. Even if it's your own tree, it may have a "stumpage" value as a standing tree. What a logger would pay for that tree. It might be zero, or it might be $1,000 for something special. Then it's cost you time and expenses to harvest the tree, then mill and dry it. So you might allow a days work converting that tree to usable lumber, and you have used fuel and consumables. That's your cost to produce a basic board. So now for example maybe it's cost $1 bd/ft to produce those boards.

Next value would be what can you sell it for? That depends on the local market, and you don't have a lot of control over that. But if the sale price is more than your production cost, you could sell the boards and be ahead on the deal. There are some extra costs involved in selling it of course, time, advertising, delivery etc. But if you can easily sell that wood for $1:50, then that's really it's current value. Then you need to weigh up the economics of using that piece of wood yourself, are you actually adding any value by making it into something?

Then there is the retail pricing. You wouldn't go to a big box store to buy lumber to make items for sale. You would shop at a local mill or wholesaler, and get a more sensible price.  But that's a 3rd potential value. What would it cost YOU if you wanted to buy this wood?

Now cost of your time is a whole other can of worms.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well Ian, you are kind of zeroing in on nailing down an exact value or cost for the wood. I started to do that myself, but then I simplified it because my real question is more general. We have had the "how much to charge for your lumber?" question quite often here on the forum and I am not asking that. So I settled in on a more general view. If somebody asked me to build this piece of furniture  with those materials, what would the material cost be to me? I am not hung up on getting top dollar for my wood, I am hung up on getting fair value for the final product I supply to the client.
This current build I am doing will have close to 200 hours into it when I deliver it. 400 bucks doesn't work out too well for that effort and time, let alone materials. I am asking how others have thought this through and worked it out and if they have found ways to market what they make that I haven't thought of, because I am not very smart.

Cru, I am going to sleep on your post overnight and reply tomorrow. You raised some interesting thoughts I'd like to explore.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   Are you buying or making the wood you use? If you are making it can you sell it at a decent price at/with a fast turn around? I figure making and selling some crafts is another way to sell the wood. If course when you do that you should expect and demand a premium price for it. Figuring your time is hard because if it is the first time you build something but will build more in the future you are learning faster and better ways to do it next time and you don't want to put all that cost of the first customer if you can help it. If it is a super special item that you never plan to build again that is different and establish and collect a decent hourly rate you are comfortable charging and working for.

   Good lock and let us know what you find out/decide.

[Ianab]

The Marketing is a whole other can of worms.  But before you even try and set a price, you have to have a handle on your costs. If you are selling for "what the market will allow", you could be losing $$ on each unit. In that case it's time to re-evaluate if that particular item is viable, or what you can do to make it viable.

Putting 50 hours into a $250 job means your shop time is only $5 an hour, even if the materials are free. So it probably has you losing $$ on the job once you take off the various random expenses.

For that sort of money you need projects, or at least the methods, that can knock them out in a day, even if it ends up being 2 hours a day for a week to allow glue and finish to cure etc.  Something that takes weeks to complete has to be priced in the $thousands, and is only going to sell to very specific buyers.

Stuff I've made and sold in the past has been things like kids furniture for the wife's kindy. You don't spend days polishing that, a couple of coats of heavy duty poly and it's good to go. Simple stuff like low tables, built tough, and from "locally salvaged and naturally durable timber" which goes down well in that scene. I could check prices against their catalogue of commercial furniture, and could do simple solid wood for a similar cost to MDF.

[customsawyer]

Tom you are getting into the same old story about how much to charge for milling or any other part of the wood business. One of the things I learned in running my business for over 30 years is, if I'm not going to make money at it then I'm better off going fishing. Fishing puts less wear on my equipment and cost less to operate. If someone doesn't want to pay what a job is worth then they can get one of the cheap guys to do the job.
You said that you are charging $250.00 for the piece and will have over 200 hours in it. If I called you and asked you to come run my mill for $1.50/hr you would be money ahead. First off I would be covering all of your expenses. Second you wouldn't be putting an wear on your tools.

[Old Greenhorn]

Thank you gentlemen. You are focusing in on figuring basic business/profit numbers and I wasn't intending to re-visit all that. I get that, I really do, even though by my descriptions it may seem like I did not. Of course it is clear by my previous statements that I am a terrible business person who is poor at math. Of course I know I am selling myself woefully short. I also probably asked my questions poorly. Yes, I would much rather be fishing, after all, I am retired, but instead I work 7 days a week trying to get by.
Coming at this question from another direction by way of some explanation: I am trying to make enough money to pay my taxes and other incidental expenses. In the beginning it was too hard, but this last year or so it is getting really rough and I am feeling a lot of pressure and not sleeping well some nights. Even if I sell my stuff at a 'loss' it still means cash coming in. The wood I make has very low cost to me, and the cost of hardware or finishes can be spread over several jobs usually, so again, minimal outlay. The 'value added' is my time and what little skills I can muster for the task. BUT, when somebody can buy an item from me, made from quality wood by hand and get it at a price close to the crap they sell these days as furniture made from pressed cardboard, something is wrong. I can't 'make' people buy my stuff, but when they call me I need to do a better job getting the prices I need to make a living.
I think I am answering my own question here. I need to make bird houses or other crap by the truck load and go on the road peddling them on street corners and in parking lots. Yeah, I would rather be fishing, but fishing pays even less. I really don't 'want' to make money, but I 'have' to make money and my back is getting against the wall here.

Cru, you made an interesting statement above:
"...this area is not very conducive to selling at fair prices for the craftsman or for the purchaser."
I wonder if you could expand on that thought a bit, especially about 'fair prices ... for the purchaser' ? What does that mean? Nobody has ever complained about my prices (I know you weren't implying that), but maybe I should get them to wince once in a while.

I guess, at this point, the best thing to do is re-visit this whole plan and maybe do something else, like get a job stocking shelves and make money by selling my tools and equipment off.

[aigheadish]

While I'm not making money off anything I do I understand what frustrations you are having Tom. (I don't make many things but I know spending about 300 bucks on a simple cutting board for my sister was a surprise and would drastically alter it's sellability to me)

I wonder if, when someone calls for a commissioned project, you could give a couple tiers of project results. So, like the guy that wants the stereo shelf- you say "well there are a few different options- Garbage mdf, that you'll paint, and it won't last through more than two house moves, that'll cost 250 bucks; mid-grade pine that'll look decent, we can slap a live edge on it, that'll cost $400; or, a high-end Cherry/Walnut/Oak piece, that'll last generations, look great, and be a conversation starter every time someone walks in a room, that'll cost 1200 bucks."

I've met you, you are an excellent talker, and while you may not think you are a salesman you really don't have to be, you know your stuff well enough that I think you'd be able to add some value to a project and some cash to your pocket while you upcharge a bit and receive a bit more for your work.

I think, if the stereo shelf guy is coming back for repeat work, you are either not charging enough or it's just right for him but not you. It may be worth asking someone like that what they'd expect to pay. Maybe start with "What's your budget?" when discussing the project.

[Tom K]

So to answer what I believe was your original question, I would value my wood at what I can sell it to someone else for. Using the value of store bought, FAS, kiln dried wood would not be accurate if that is not what you have.

Since your are concerned more about dollars coming you you do have the option to discount your wood value to increase your labor, but that's just playing a shell game to a certain extent.

Adding to your conversation with Crusarius, if people are not back tracking a little or trying to negotiate down your price they you are too cheap. Double or triple your prices and go from there. You should be losing a percentage of your bids because you are to high, increase your price until you do. The last couple larger projects I was over the owners budget by a $1k or so. I stood my ground and the owner came up to my price.

The last line in your last post is really what you need to figure out. You need the extra cash, what do you prefer to spend your time doing to get it? Only you can answer that question.

[21incher]

We have a couple Amish stores that sell handmade furniture , both custom and stock units that are comparable to what most craftspeople make. I like to visit and check pricing.  This is one https://www.saudersstore.com/indoor-furniture and I can tell you the prices have trippled the last couple years. People are willing to pay the prices without questions mostly I think because  it has the Amish made tag that they associate with good value and quality. A stock  cabinet like your  making would  probably fetch $1200.00. Then they make the same cabinet from low cost wood and painted that would cost a little  less. They are all made with production tooling and jigs that speed things up and finishing booths to speed up perfect finishes.  That is what you compete with around here and the sales people are just low paid workers,  not the craftspeople wasting time dealing with the customer.  I think it's  very hard to compete with showrooms like that without under pricing manufacturing costs around here.

On the other  hand little  things can be profitable and sell. I recently made a batch  of little  ornaments with gnomes and gave most away. One of the women that got one showed a friend and she wants some made so she asked me how much to make some. I don't like making things to sell so gave her what I thought was a ridiculous price of $25 each. Well she didn't  think it was ridiculous and wants a complete  set of 9. I can make 4 to 5 an hour with about $1.50 each plywood cost and 50 cents for the cardboard gift boxes. They are just little  gotta haves when people see them and very fun to make and very little  labor involved because  of a $2600 laser. Once the first batch is made costs are concrete. Sure they are a seasonal item but the low price makes them great handmade gifts that are affordable.  I make a lot of little  things on my youtube channel and get so many requests from people wanting  to but them but say no because it's only me but if I was younger I would setup an online  storefront and bet it would be profitable by having a large customer  base from areas that aren't depressed like western NY.  But at this point I just want to have fun with no serious responsibility and the grandkids have no interest to get involved making things that could provide them with extra money with very little work.  I think little things can be  profitable but just don't give me me the satisfaction of making one offs at this point in life so you may need both to keep profitable and enjoy what you do. 

[doc henderson]

Tom, none of our business.  the holidays are already stressful enough.  Does Bill have work building up?  It seems like you are needed on a regular basis to go put out a fire.  I assume he pays you.  the shop woodwork is a combo of skill and marketing as well as seasonal fluctuations.  If I were in your shoes, I would concentrate for now on a known guaranteed hourly wage to get through the holidays and get back to the building of your home business after the dust settles.  Maybe I should have made this a PM.  There are no guarantees in business.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Are you running a business or a cost neutral hobby?

   I tell most folks I am a cost neutral hobby. If you are a hobby and you can't afford the difference between what it costs and what you are bringing in, you need to raise prices or find a different hobby. Most of us have hobbies we pay for and accept that cost for the enjoyment it brings us.  I don't depend on my mill and associated work for a living but it does pretty well pay for itself and I have fun doing it and meeting and helping people. Yes, I am helping people and that is rewarding to me. I am never on a tight schedule. If the fish are biting or the deer season is in or such I can pretty much always schedule that ahead of a sawing job or building something.

    Are you having fun dealing with people and being challenged to come with up with ways to create something special? If you weren't doing your wood projects what would you be doing? Do you do the work for the money or the fun of creating something unique and making people happy?

   I liked my overseas work and the related, paid travel and such but that played out and was no longer an option so I ended up with time to fill. I retired and I hunted and fished and played with the grandkids for a couple of years and such but it did not fill my time and keep me busy and entertained so I finally stopped by the Woodmizer dealer in NC on a way to visit my daughter and I bought the mill and found this site. I have pretty much been as busy as I wanted to be ever since but I work at my pace.

    When someone calls and tells me someone else down the road saws logs cheaper I tell them to take them there and I never regret that decision. They would not have been a fun customer to work for anyway and I don't want or have to deal with people like that.

    Good luck on your decisions. Remember, if you weren't doing things like this you would never have met me and the others on the design committee here. Maybe you need to go paint something purple to recharge your batteries.  ;)

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard, I am assuming all your questions were rhetorical since the answers can be found in my prior posts.

Doc, no issue with that post and you are paying attention. Yes, Bill needs my work and he calls me every couple of days to politely remind work is sitting there. But that is straight labor work and tough on an old man, especially in this weather. I do have a machine to rebuild for him, but am waiting for him the get the frame re-painted before I start assembly and re-making parts. I figure that for after the holidays since it will consume a bunch of my floor space while I am working on it. Doing his stuff in my shop is more ideal for me. There is always wood to mill, and he has a stack of chipper blades to re-sharpen (which I keep avoiding because the machine is filthy and I come home wearing coolant cologne and grinding swarf, plus I have to climb a 15' ladder to get up in the cluttered loft to work.) So I could go that route but I need to get this last project done. I also need to take some ERC back to the mill to re-saw for another lot-run of cremation urns over the winter. At least those sell in spurts, here and there. But working steady hours doing mostly physical work is tough for me. Tough enough is I got a request for logs, due in Feb. that will keep me busy cutting beginning in January, about 150-200 logs and there is another order expected behind that for about 40-50 logs. Still you have good ideas. The holidays are not adding any stress that I am aware of, the kids mostly do their own thing and I look at them as just another day, likely working in the mornings at least. It's the tax bill and insurance bill coming if Jan. and Feb. that are on my mind all the time now. I am putting money away in dribs and drabs as it dribbles in, but daily household expenses keep eating away at that.

21, Those are some interesting thoughts. I wish that link had some pricing on it, that would help a lot. Even though I know what the value of these things should be, people won't even entertain spending that kind of money as far as I can tell. Yeah, I get lucky sometimes, but mostly not. I allow myself to get talked into things and I really have to break that habit clean off. I am terrible at quoting work on the fly, always have been.

My last show of the year is this Sunday, so maybe some freak thing will happen and I will do well. It's not likely, but that would change a lot of things. I'll give it my best shot and even have a few last minute small items I am finishing up in the shop right now for it. I do have a bunch of work lined up for over the winter to build stock back up, but that will have to wait until shows begin again in the spring. Most of this planned work is mid-range stuff, in the $125. -$250. range, those things I have been able to sell even though they are worth more than I charge.

I guess I am trying to balance making things I enjoy with making things that I can sell without too much marketing and I still have no idea what that picture looks like.

[mudfarmer]

Even though I know what the value of these things should be, people won't even entertain spending that kind of money as far as I can tell.

I don't have any answers for you but this piece stood out to me and ties into a couple of the other posts.

There is a local garden center that sells outdoor furniture made by an amish teenage crew, think adirondack chairs and benches tables etc. It is all made out of that plastic decking board and a chair costs over $200. We were there buying some plants this spring and I watched 5 of those >$200 chairs sell in an hour. I do not understand it because if you or I made the same thing it seems like we would get scoffed at for trying to sell a screwed together lump of plastic for that much money. With a stop block, a saw and a drill you could slap one together so quick you would wonder what just happened.

Not sure if people assume that if we aren't doing something full time it must be a hobby so we don't need to make money, or if "amish made" really brings such a premium or what is going on! Best of luck to us all

[Crusarius]

Cru, you made an interesting statement above:
"...this area is not very conducive to selling at fair prices for the craftsman or for the purchaser."
I wonder if you could expand on that thought a bit, especially about 'fair prices ... for the purchaser' ? What does that mean? Nobody has ever complained about my prices (I know you weren't implying that), but maybe I should get them to wince once in a while.

Exactly what you said. You should make the wince once in a while. if someone doesn't say "ouch thats kinda pricey" then you have room to raise your prices. The biggest issue I have noticed (this is just personal experience take it for what its worth) is nobody is willing to pay for anything anymore.

chinese crap table https://www.amazon.com/Tribesigns-Conference-Meeting-Rectangle-Grommet/dp/B08H1VBMH2?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

Legs alone should cost close to $300. They are selling this OK looking modern table for $300. there is no way on earth that you and I could even come close to building that table for 300 unless we used maple melamine with cheap chinese legs. then we are still $300 in before we even assemble it.

The american ppl are used to, and want to, pay chinese junk prices for quality american made craftsmans goods. The only way to fix that is to roll back the clock and not sell our soles to china.

Part of the reason I build most of my toys is because I just can't afford to buy them. But the other part is I love to build things. The only way to truly be happy is to find a medium pricepoint between cost and value from the customers view. Then maybe you can find the right buyers and make some money.

Forgive me if I sound negative, I am trying not to. But I really feel this entire country has sold its sole to china. (I think thats the right spelling of sole?)

[mudfarmer]

"soul" but that's where we sent all our shoe manufacturing and "if the shoe fits" !

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   Some of my questions were rhetorical, some were not, some were thinking you might need to revisit some of your answers based on the current questions.

    I don't think any of us think you do not know how to calculate profit and loss. You know the cost or your lumber/logs, processing, tools, fasteners and finishes and you obviously keep up with your time.  I like the proposal above offering different versions of the same item with different prices based on the amount of time and materials/finishing work you do. Let the customer help decide how much cost and effort you put into a a project.

   The big question seems to be what to charge and how to collect it for your labor. Part of the problem there is you are doing something you really enjoy and are probably willing to work for less to do so but you still need to make a certain amount to continue doing so. Collecting mushroom logs may actually pay more than making a custom piece of furniture but the furniture is more fun. Decisions-decisions! Many of us worked at jobs or in locations or for bosses we did not enjoy but they paid better than other options we had at the time and we needed the money. In some cases they were stepping stones to get to a more enjoyable or better paying job that we really wanted.

    Remember the old adage "Perfect is the enemy of good." I am of the opinion you are wanting to make then sell "perfect" workmanship at "good" prices and finding that is not working. 

   Most of my customers are rural and I love it when I saw a good 2X6X12 but it has a couple  of feet with bark on one corner on one side. I tell the customer he can either cut that down to a 10' perfect 2X6 or I can edge off 2" to make it into a perfect 2X4X12. Most of the time the customer will say "Its just going in a hay barn I'm building and it is fine as it is. We both leave happy.

[Hilltop366]

The wood is worth what you can sell it for and as far as I can tell your labour if free (or less) once you subtract your shop cost and shop materials.

I'm sure I have missed a few opportunities or under charged over the years because I think everybody is as cheap as I am.

[Hilltop366]

My wife was in the same pricing predicament recently, she was asked to make a 12"x16" painting for someone who wanted a picture of the old family home. She works full time and hasn't painted a lot over the last 20 years so wasn't sure what to charge when asked so she said $150 because that is what she would charge 20 years ago then thought it should have been much more but already said it out loud so she stuck with the price quoted.

The painting took at least 20 hours plus materials so she made about $7 per hour. Walmart pays a bit over $15


 

[WV Sawmiller]

Hilltop.

    I doubt there is one of us here who has not underpriced a job and went ahead and did it and learned by our mistake. The problem comes in when the customer wants another just like the last and for the same price.  :

[terrifictimbersllc]

no great wisdom but here goes....

you have to charge enough to make you want to do it a few more times

.....if you dont want to do it a few more times then who benefits?

[Old Greenhorn]

Well thanks guys, all this is helpful. Admittedly this is my problem alone. I created it and I have to solve it. Half of it is in my head and how I perceive things. I think Austin's suggestion gave me something I can use to better ends, because these cheap prices are ones that I quote, nobody put those words in my mouth. SO Austin's method gives ME a way to think it through and work up to the correct price and not shoot myself in the foot.

I like doing stuff once and getting it right. I am not a fan of  repeating a process over and over because I did that my whole life designing production systems, fixtures, and processes. I am good at it, but 45 years of it was about enough. I do realize that this is where the money sits though and I am coming around to it for some things like the cremation urns, which do help people, the device stands, now the LP stands, and some of the little things like tool boxes for kids. I see the value of having that stuff in a booth for easy sales. Handling all that small stuff is a pain, but if I had that trailer I could just stock it and have it handy at any show.
I'll keep pondering on this, but I am feeling a lot better about
things than I was 24 hours ago. Thanks everybody.

Hilltop, that is a beautiful painting! Yeah, I think she undersold herself, but as I am learning, seems like there is a lot of that going around.

[thecfarm]

You said best client?
There are some that know who to go to for what.
Meaning they know who to go and get what they want for a cheap price and know they paid way less of what they would have to pay if they asked someone else.
Maybe I am wrong posting this.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   I don't know if this applies to your situation but my dad had a family monument business and he had a display at our home with assorted pieces. He sold a lot of double markers for husband and wife use. He had one very large that maybe sold for $5K back then then he had a mid size for about $2400 and a small version that sold for around $800. Understand the smallest one did the job just as well as the biggest one. Some people came and just wanted to spend money and would ask "Is the $5K stone the most expensive one you sell". Dad would tell them "Well, if we get it out of black, African granite it triples the price" and the customer would say "That's what I want". More often they bought the mid grade because they felt they were not insulting their deceased loved ones by going too cheap or showing off with the big one. Many practical people looked and decided the least expensive did just as good a job - which it did - and bought that.

   Displaying a bigger, more expensive stone helped move the average purchase up at the same time.

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard, yes, that is actually helpful. Maybe (given the available time and materials) I could make 3 demo pieces at the different levels that are the same size and general design. That would give an tangible visual explanation of what the differences are. It has long been clear that I need to be very patient in explaining (over and over) how my pieces are made and finished because people just don't know, and I don't expect them to.

Ray, you are not wrong, some folks are like that. My best client freely tells me my prices are low and we have often raised the final cost when I complete a piece for him because of the work it turned into. He is a city guy and knows what he would pay for my stuff in the city. He has also made a couple of attempts to hook me up with 'a guy' down there. He has 3 of my best pieces in his home plus several I gifted him as I was learning and trying stuff, and now I am working on a 4th piece. He tries to buy 1 major piece a year.

[thecfarm]

Death can make some feel guilty.  :(
Too late after the fact, but some feel it is not. It makes them feel better.  :

[WV Sawmiller]

Ray,

   Dad knew that and also some people wanted to show the public how much they loved their family members and the size and cost of the stone was a way to show that (even if it was not true) and Dad was willing to help them express themselves.

    The smaller stone with the names and dates was just as durable and left just as permanent a record for family, friends and historians.

[Ianab]

He had one very large that maybe sold for $5K back then then he had a mid size for about $2400 and a small version that sold for around $800

I guess the thing was he had that range of product. They were all perfectly good, as in "fit for purpose".


Similar if people want a table.
OK, here's a slab of pine, flattened, sanded and varnished, with cheap metal "pin" legs. Takes maybe a day to make, but you can sell that for $hundreds". It's not fine furniture, but it's "fit for purpose". Better than Chinese MDF, and at least in the same ballpark price wise. Now you want better wood / design / finish? Here's the options $$$. If it's going to take a week to build, it has to be worth thousands.


Not everyone is going to pay the high end prices, and maybe 90% of the people you talk to will be better off politely being sent to Ikea.

[Hilltop366]

The issue with making the same piece from different materials is the tools, shop time, shop supplies and labour are going to be about the same for each one, the cost difference is only going to be the base materials which is not a huge factor on smaller projects and possibly finishing time if a different finishing method is used.

I can see the budget version being under priced in order to not over price the deluxe.

Reminds me of the local guy that had a GM dealership in the 80's and sold a bunch of cars to a foreign country in the middle east (thinking it was 700 to 800 cars), GM offered the car with a standard transmission so they could advertise it with a lower list price but they never actually made any with a standard and that is what the costumer insisted on getting, GM ended up having to make the cars with the standard transmission and sell them cheaper than the automatics even though it cost them more to make.

[WV Sawmiller]

   When I go to one of my shows/flea markets and take my primitive benches I take some unfinished ash or oak and others that have been finished (sanded and tung oil - I don't have the skills, tools or shop space to do the fine finish work Tom and others do) ones out of walnut, maple or cherry and list them for double to triple the unfinished. Some customers just say I want something rustic for the cabin or hunting camp and are fine with the unfinished. Others want the nicer versions. I'll have some with Lichtenburg engraving as eye catchers and conversation pieces to get people to stop and talk.

[Big_eddy]

It seems to me that this is a hobby that is expected to help pay bills, so fundamentally it comes down to whether when you finish the project you feel like you received enough compensation for the materials and effort you put into it. In other words, was it worth it?

Someone mentioned $15 an hour at Walmart. You'd have to pay me a lot more than $15 an hour to put in an 8hr day at Walmart and I wouldn't enjoy a minute of it, but I'd happily putter all day in the shop and if I sold something I made for $120, I'd be delighted. Same time, same payout, one worth it, the other not.

[Ianab]

The issue with making the same piece from different materials is the tools, shop time, shop supplies and labour are going to be about the same for each one, the cost difference is only going to be the base materials which is not a huge factor on smaller projects and possibly finishing time if a different finishing method is used.

For sure. making the "same" item in a different material is about the same amount of work, only the raw material cost changes. Now that can be significant in some cases, if the "raw material" is a huge slab of exotic wood, and is worth $1,000 before you start, and you add another $1,000 of work to it, the raw material cost is significant.

But if you start with $100 of Pine, or $200 of Ash, and add the same $1,000 of work, then it's a $1,100 table vs a $1,200 table. That's where the fallacy of "X" time the cost of materials that some people use falls down. Cost of materials might be 50% of the project, or it might be 10%. Total cost is materials + labour (and overheads). Not any fixed %. Even if Santa drops off the wood for free, it's still going to be a $1,000 table once you build it. 

My suggestion though was making a simpler table. Now you have your labour cost down to maybe $500, and can sell the simple pine table for $600.

WV has the idea. Benches can be finished, or raw wood. Finishing an item is a lot of work, but he can capture the "I want rustic", the "I can varnish that myself at home", AND the "I want it shiny and new, and will pay extra for that" crowds.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, my last show of the year is in the books and I am glad to have it 'done'. Doing shows mess me up a bit to get last minute stuff made for the show, having everything staged, priced out, cleaned, and ready to load at the shop door for a week or more ahead, and all the other 'stuff' that goes along with it.
Not a great show, after the entry fee I cleared just under $100. but it was only 4 hours. Most of my sales came between 10 minutes before closing and 20 minutes after closing ( I had to unpack stuff after just packing it). This show I had to carry all my stuff about 100' into the building to my booth which pithed me off because there is a 'load-in' area that would have cut the distance to about 30', but some jerk had a car parked blocking access that never moved all day so all the vendors had a lot of carrying to do.
My first sale was 20 minutes into the show, then nothing until the above mentioned sales. Of course there were many conversations and contacts made which will turn into something or nothing, that's the game, right?



 

I had the only 10x10 booth at the show, all the rest were small items sellers, jewelry, homemade stuff, pillows, and that sort of thing on single tables. Got the usual comments "Your Stuff is nice", 'Your stuff is underpriced', 'you do some really nice stuff' (which makes me wonder: "some?!", does that mean the rest is not nice?), etc. All from folks that didn't buy anything. ;D Several folks with no cash, checkbook, or Venmo, who thought the whole world took credit cards. I do not, and neither do the majority of vendors around these parts where internet at shows is very rare.

So loading in and out was not a lot of fun, but not terrible, I am just old and need something to complain about. ;D  The show itself was comfortable, all the vendors seemed to be pros, they got their vehicles unloaded into their booths and moved them out to make room for others before setting up. Loading out, none started packing early, but when closing time came, they didn't waste time and most were done and gone in 30 minutes. No load out traffic jam at all. Easy. First time I have seen that with all the shows I had done alone, or helping my wife for 20 years. There are always a few folks that seem to be 'challenged' by the packing out issue in many different ways. Kind of like watching the free town boat ramp on a Saturday afternoon in July. :D
But, soon after the show opened, the rain started, and was fairly steady at closing time, which meant, for the second show in a row, I was driving home in a steady rain with a truckload full of wet furniture and soaking wet moving blankets. >:( I'm getting used to it and was ready for it.) I had my shed cleared and got home, backed right up to the shed and offloaded everything. I had jammed a few benches in the cab as well as all the stuff (signs and small stuff) I could fit. This show I also had some kind of plastic/foldable amazon shipping bag/box with a zippered top that took a lot of my smalls and kept them dry, but it was heavy and I could barely lift it in and out of the truck, but that saved a lot of drying. Love to get another one.
Anyway, after unloading I went and dried everything. I have the soaked moving blankets drying in the shop along with the drying rags. They have water just running out all over the floor. Checked in with the wife and gave the required report ( who did I see, what did I sell, how did it go?), put on dry shirts, went back out and did some sanding on the epoxy of the current build, and puttered in the shop. Had dinner, and now it's time to go tend the shop stove for the overnight plus the house stove. Tomorrow I'll get back in the groove and set up for the winter season moving stuff in the shop and trying to get this current job finished this week.
So another show and I learned more stuff. After the last show where I sold a mess of those device stands and knew I had to make more, well I had a ton for this show and sold none. I did give two away as gifts, one to the gal that designed my logo, and another to Jay Unger who wanted to buy one, but I wouldn't have that. I have gained a lot through Jay's music over the last 30 years and there is no way I could take his money, plus, he's a neighbor. ;D
My wife asked me tonight if I was glad I did this one. I had to think on that, but realized I know more now than I did yesterday, I didn't 'lose' money, and I picked up more 'intelligence' on how to set the booth up as I observed people. With few sales, I spent my time watching folks eyes and faces and learned some things.

[Stephen1]

Just found this post. I have been portable sawing for the last 11 years. 5 years ago I bought a new LT40wideHD. I also purchased the IDR Kiln.
For the last 5 years my Buisness plan has been  "I saw and dry wood'. I don't know how many times over the last 5 years I have to tell myself this.  Before this I would go off in all sorts of different directions,  Cathy has been great at keeping me on track.   
For the last 4 years I have been selling wood on Saturday mornings from 9-12:30. I was following and studying YH. During Covid it was real easy book 30 min appointments and people came in, chatted with me, put money in my hand and took stuff out of my shop, all kiln dried wood, cookies, charcuterie stock, slabs, and a bit of lumber. I could not keep wood in my shop. I started buying my own logs and sawing lumber, and slabs. Learning from the FF and YH and reading about hardwood lumber grading. This year my shop is full, all the walls have wood stacked to the ceiling, and some walls are 2 deep in bundles of wood.
Not as many people spending money in this economy. Now what do I do?
This year I sawed 3 house projects of B&B siding. 1200 1x10x10 and 12' long. lots of physical work that is completely manual, no drag back, no roller tables. Some I had to move my bobcat to get the logs from the arborists yard as he was recuperating in Florida. He will normally deliver or lend me his dump trailer and load the logs and I run them to my shop and dump them off. I am not sure I want to do that next year without changing something in my operation.
I buy hardwood and softwood logs off of him for the same price. .40 cents a bd ft. international scale.
I can sell B&B pine at $2 a bd ft or I can sell kiln dried hardwood lumber at $4-14 a bd ft. Not hard to figure out which is the better move. I also am able to sell KD pine slabs for $5-6 a bd ft which is not terrible but they need to be plus 24" wide.
My next 5 year is what  I am looking at now.  I would like to wind down my portable sawing as it is getting hard on my body and real hard to get anyone to help besides Cathy. Even the customers don't want to help.
Whatcha selling and how are you selling?
My son Has a Degree in computer science or Mathematics. He likes to tell me, he is a scientist and his science is social media. It is a science, of numbers,  no doubt. He runs experiments on convincing people to buy company products. He says in any given number of people there are sales. It is how many people do you have to touch to sell "x" products.  What does it cost to touch that many people to sell your product so you can make money. I was talking to him over the last few weeks as I rethink my next 5 years. 2-3 things came from him for me to think on. Use social media to expand my sales, go from the local population of 30k to a population of +300 million. Think North America. Set up an Etsy store and sell across N. America 400+ million people. I can also just think of my area of Southern Ontario of 10 million. Use my websites and for $2500 he will install a storefront in it and then, use social media to sell from there. His warning to me was "be prepared as he will get me calls no problems, The ? then becomes, will I  be able to handle all the calls and sales to follow.
Tom or any of you that go to craft fairs or shows and you pay x$ to set up a booth and have x people come by your booth. What are the #s? Are you there to make money or their for the social part of talking to people local?
Tom I see some beautiful wood working objects, but for a craft fair before Christmas , people want to spend 20-30 for Christmas presents,  not $150 for themselves. You need to have a bunch charcuterie, cheese board, coat racks, hat racks,  type items for cash Flo and the big items are what you can build for people on consignment. Would a store on Etsy be a better avenue for you? you are computer literate.
A furniture maker down the road from me charges 3x what the wood cost to build something, If he has to think about how to make an item he charges 5x the cost of the wood. He says it has always served him well.
Sorry I got a little carried away while I was waiting for drywall mud to dry. 


 

[Old Greenhorn]

...
Tom or any of you that go to craft fairs or shows and you pay x$ to set up a booth and have x people come by your booth. What are the #s? Are you there to make money or their for the social part of talking to people local?
Tom I see some beautiful wood working objects, but for a craft fair before Christmas , people want to spend 20-30 for Christmas presents,  not $150 for themselves. You need to have a bunch charcuterie, cheese board, coat racks, hat racks,  type items for cash Flo and the big items are what you can build for people on consignment. Would a store on Etsy be a better avenue for you? you are computer literate.
A furniture maker down the road from me charges 3x what the wood cost to build something, If he has to think about how to make an item he charges 5x the cost of the wood. He says it has always served him well.
......................

Well, I didn't know this thread was lot, but I'm glad you found it. ;D

The short answer to your first question is 'yes'. I do it for both. Making contacts is paying off OK or better than show sales for picking up better work (sales).
As for the Etsy thing, last time I checked, they take 40% or more for 'their services' so that makes it a no-go for me, plus all the work that you have to do to set it up and maintain it, plus all the shipping nonsense. I will (and do) ship, but the costs are nuts IMHO and I make it clear to the client as much as I can that I can't help that. Also, I can't see shipping my benches, or even a coat rack given the amount of time and materials that go into packing. But yes, I will ship, I just don't like giving 40% of my sales to a website while I still do most of the work. That's just me.

It's not all that hard to get your name and stuff out there, but finding a million people that are too far away to buy lumber won't help you much. If you are selling smaller stuff, then you are back into the packing/shipping issues.

As far as my booth goes, I did not bring all my stuff and only had a few examples or larger pieces, plus a slideshow on a tablet showing other work that was not there. I did increase the number of low dollar items for this one. I only sold to coat racks (the top and bottom ones in the photo) and one stool. I don't make cheese boards but maybe I should give it a try. I am just about out of lumber right now.

I guess we all have to find and follow our own path Steve. Keep us informed how your new plan works, I am more than curious.

[aigheadish]

Tom, we may have discussed this a bit when we were there, or I may have mentioned it elsewhere and it kind of applies now...

My wife has done a fair amount of selling her bags, https://www.etsy.com/shop/TiarellasClutch (shameless plug for beautiful bags/purses) on Etsy and says for it to be effective you really need to keep up with it. The sales, unless you are some viral hit, tend to come, due to their algo's, after posting new things every day or close to it. Granted her work flow is not optimized because she doesn't see the value in posting from her phone, it still is a lot to keep up with with adding photos and descriptions and junk, not to mention running to the post office all the time and in your case packaging and such.

I think there is a place for Etsy, other than the fees being crazy, but it's smalls or light stuff that is easy to move.

[caveman]

Tom, I skimmed this thread but have not read it closely.  Jmoore, my best friend and sawmill business partner, is very talented at building furniture.  That is the part of the reason we purchased our first mill.  We realized after a weekend of sawing that we either needed to sell lumber, custom saw or sell the mill.  We've kind of done all three.  We have built some stuff for folks for money, but we have spent much more time sawing as it pays the bills.

I try to keep track of our time and expenses when we do build items for customers.  Usually, we'll sell them wood and I'll refer them to one our competent friends to do the furniture building.  We can generally make more money per hour running the mill.  Sometimes, we will take short slabs that have not sold and make benches out of them.  We use them to stack wood on when showing wood to customers or stocking our bins.  These benches are always for sale and we sell a few.  They are also hand places to park ourselves and drink cold beer after a long, hot day of the material handling processes. 

Another thing to consider is to place an ad on Craig's List for NYC or other areas with money and people who don't know how to do the things you know how to do/build.  Some of our customers drive a long way and pass a lot of other sources to buy wood from us.  CL is the only place we advertise, and we generally stay as busy as we want to be.   

I completely agree with Jake.  If someone does not want to pay our prices, I'll suggest that they go somewhere else.  No hard feelings here.  I'll go fishing, for a walk, read the FF or at least not put wear and tear on machines.

[Hamajama]

I think there is a place for Etsy, other than the fees being crazy, but it's smalls or light stuff that is easy to move.

This. Etsy takes 6.5% off the top. On top of that, if a customer saw an ad anywhere for that listing (Google, FB, etc.), clicked on the link, and made the purchase within 30 days, Etsy will take an additional 15% (up to $100) as an off-site add fee. Just something to keep in mind. I got burnt one too many times, especially factoring in freight, fuel, and time (if you deliver), equating to a minimal net gain. I wrote it off after that.

I've had some success from posting on marketplace; however, be prepared for the tire kickers and balkers. I'd suggest casting as far as a net as you are willing to go to reach the $$$ locations.

[Old Greenhorn]

I'm giving this thread a little bit of a bump because I just re-read it and there has been a lot of good and useful information posted thus far. Also the summer craft fair season is upon us. I did a show 2 weeks ago, total bust, no advertising or even road signs outside the show, very very little folks attended. It happens, that's the game. But it served my needs and gave me a shakedown show with my new setup and trailer. I learned a lot and have made a lot of adjustments based on that learning. I have another show this weekend with much higher hopes. Better location, at least some advance advertising, and we will see what happens.
 But I have a new question I would like to hear folks input on: How do you balance your 'smalls' verses your bigger dollar items?  Also, how do you see things moving out, do you make more on the smalls or the bigger items? How do you balance your stock with smalls verses major items. It takes a lot of $5 items to equal a $150 item.
 Maybe what I am really asking is "What is your philosophy on this point?" How do you approach it.
 I can't figure out the 'smalls' yet. I don't really enjoy 'production' work at all. I did that for 50 years and would like to be done with it, if I can. To me 'smalls' mean 'production' in that you have to make a bunch of them, and quick, to make it worth anything. OTOH I have made some quick and dirty stuff just to use in my booth that folks like and want, like my little business card crates. I made a few because I wanted something to hold more than 20 cards or so and would be not affected by wind. I wound up selling two of those to other vendors, which I did not expect. So I made more this week. I have sold other card holders too, so it's on my list of 'things to make'. But I sell them for 5 bucks with not much effect on the bottom line. (Actually, that's cheaper than the Lucite ones at Staples.)
 So for you show guys, how do you approach the balance and what are your thoughts on this?