Watcha' sellin' ? (And how are you selling it?)

[mudfarmer]

Even though I know what the value of these things should be, people won't even entertain spending that kind of money as far as I can tell.

I don't have any answers for you but this piece stood out to me and ties into a couple of the other posts.

There is a local garden center that sells outdoor furniture made by an amish teenage crew, think adirondack chairs and benches tables etc. It is all made out of that plastic decking board and a chair costs over $200. We were there buying some plants this spring and I watched 5 of those >$200 chairs sell in an hour. I do not understand it because if you or I made the same thing it seems like we would get scoffed at for trying to sell a screwed together lump of plastic for that much money. With a stop block, a saw and a drill you could slap one together so quick you would wonder what just happened.

Not sure if people assume that if we aren't doing something full time it must be a hobby so we don't need to make money, or if "amish made" really brings such a premium or what is going on! Best of luck to us all

[Crusarius]

Cru, you made an interesting statement above:
"...this area is not very conducive to selling at fair prices for the craftsman or for the purchaser."
I wonder if you could expand on that thought a bit, especially about 'fair prices ... for the purchaser' ? What does that mean? Nobody has ever complained about my prices (I know you weren't implying that), but maybe I should get them to wince once in a while.

Exactly what you said. You should make the wince once in a while. if someone doesn't say "ouch thats kinda pricey" then you have room to raise your prices. The biggest issue I have noticed (this is just personal experience take it for what its worth) is nobody is willing to pay for anything anymore.

chinese crap table https://www.amazon.com/Tribesigns-Conference-Meeting-Rectangle-Grommet/dp/B08H1VBMH2?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

Legs alone should cost close to $300. They are selling this OK looking modern table for $300. there is no way on earth that you and I could even come close to building that table for 300 unless we used maple melamine with cheap chinese legs. then we are still $300 in before we even assemble it.

The american ppl are used to, and want to, pay chinese junk prices for quality american made craftsmans goods. The only way to fix that is to roll back the clock and not sell our soles to china.

Part of the reason I build most of my toys is because I just can't afford to buy them. But the other part is I love to build things. The only way to truly be happy is to find a medium pricepoint between cost and value from the customers view. Then maybe you can find the right buyers and make some money.

Forgive me if I sound negative, I am trying not to. But I really feel this entire country has sold its sole to china. (I think thats the right spelling of sole?)

[mudfarmer]

"soul" but that's where we sent all our shoe manufacturing and "if the shoe fits" !

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   Some of my questions were rhetorical, some were not, some were thinking you might need to revisit some of your answers based on the current questions.

    I don't think any of us think you do not know how to calculate profit and loss. You know the cost or your lumber/logs, processing, tools, fasteners and finishes and you obviously keep up with your time.  I like the proposal above offering different versions of the same item with different prices based on the amount of time and materials/finishing work you do. Let the customer help decide how much cost and effort you put into a a project.

   The big question seems to be what to charge and how to collect it for your labor. Part of the problem there is you are doing something you really enjoy and are probably willing to work for less to do so but you still need to make a certain amount to continue doing so. Collecting mushroom logs may actually pay more than making a custom piece of furniture but the furniture is more fun. Decisions-decisions! Many of us worked at jobs or in locations or for bosses we did not enjoy but they paid better than other options we had at the time and we needed the money. In some cases they were stepping stones to get to a more enjoyable or better paying job that we really wanted.

    Remember the old adage "Perfect is the enemy of good." I am of the opinion you are wanting to make then sell "perfect" workmanship at "good" prices and finding that is not working. 

   Most of my customers are rural and I love it when I saw a good 2X6X12 but it has a couple  of feet with bark on one corner on one side. I tell the customer he can either cut that down to a 10' perfect 2X6 or I can edge off 2" to make it into a perfect 2X4X12. Most of the time the customer will say "Its just going in a hay barn I'm building and it is fine as it is. We both leave happy.

[Hilltop366]

The wood is worth what you can sell it for and as far as I can tell your labour if free (or less) once you subtract your shop cost and shop materials.

I'm sure I have missed a few opportunities or under charged over the years because I think everybody is as cheap as I am.

[Hilltop366]

My wife was in the same pricing predicament recently, she was asked to make a 12"x16" painting for someone who wanted a picture of the old family home. She works full time and hasn't painted a lot over the last 20 years so wasn't sure what to charge when asked so she said $150 because that is what she would charge 20 years ago then thought it should have been much more but already said it out loud so she stuck with the price quoted.

The painting took at least 20 hours plus materials so she made about $7 per hour. Walmart pays a bit over $15


 

[WV Sawmiller]

Hilltop.

    I doubt there is one of us here who has not underpriced a job and went ahead and did it and learned by our mistake. The problem comes in when the customer wants another just like the last and for the same price.  :

[terrifictimbersllc]

no great wisdom but here goes....

you have to charge enough to make you want to do it a few more times

.....if you dont want to do it a few more times then who benefits?

[Old Greenhorn]

Well thanks guys, all this is helpful. Admittedly this is my problem alone. I created it and I have to solve it. Half of it is in my head and how I perceive things. I think Austin's suggestion gave me something I can use to better ends, because these cheap prices are ones that I quote, nobody put those words in my mouth. SO Austin's method gives ME a way to think it through and work up to the correct price and not shoot myself in the foot.

I like doing stuff once and getting it right. I am not a fan of  repeating a process over and over because I did that my whole life designing production systems, fixtures, and processes. I am good at it, but 45 years of it was about enough. I do realize that this is where the money sits though and I am coming around to it for some things like the cremation urns, which do help people, the device stands, now the LP stands, and some of the little things like tool boxes for kids. I see the value of having that stuff in a booth for easy sales. Handling all that small stuff is a pain, but if I had that trailer I could just stock it and have it handy at any show.
I'll keep pondering on this, but I am feeling a lot better about
things than I was 24 hours ago. Thanks everybody.

Hilltop, that is a beautiful painting! Yeah, I think she undersold herself, but as I am learning, seems like there is a lot of that going around.

[thecfarm]

You said best client?
There are some that know who to go to for what.
Meaning they know who to go and get what they want for a cheap price and know they paid way less of what they would have to pay if they asked someone else.
Maybe I am wrong posting this.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   I don't know if this applies to your situation but my dad had a family monument business and he had a display at our home with assorted pieces. He sold a lot of double markers for husband and wife use. He had one very large that maybe sold for $5K back then then he had a mid size for about $2400 and a small version that sold for around $800. Understand the smallest one did the job just as well as the biggest one. Some people came and just wanted to spend money and would ask "Is the $5K stone the most expensive one you sell". Dad would tell them "Well, if we get it out of black, African granite it triples the price" and the customer would say "That's what I want". More often they bought the mid grade because they felt they were not insulting their deceased loved ones by going too cheap or showing off with the big one. Many practical people looked and decided the least expensive did just as good a job - which it did - and bought that.

   Displaying a bigger, more expensive stone helped move the average purchase up at the same time.

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard, yes, that is actually helpful. Maybe (given the available time and materials) I could make 3 demo pieces at the different levels that are the same size and general design. That would give an tangible visual explanation of what the differences are. It has long been clear that I need to be very patient in explaining (over and over) how my pieces are made and finished because people just don't know, and I don't expect them to.

Ray, you are not wrong, some folks are like that. My best client freely tells me my prices are low and we have often raised the final cost when I complete a piece for him because of the work it turned into. He is a city guy and knows what he would pay for my stuff in the city. He has also made a couple of attempts to hook me up with 'a guy' down there. He has 3 of my best pieces in his home plus several I gifted him as I was learning and trying stuff, and now I am working on a 4th piece. He tries to buy 1 major piece a year.

[thecfarm]

Death can make some feel guilty.  :(
Too late after the fact, but some feel it is not. It makes them feel better.  :

[WV Sawmiller]

Ray,

   Dad knew that and also some people wanted to show the public how much they loved their family members and the size and cost of the stone was a way to show that (even if it was not true) and Dad was willing to help them express themselves.

    The smaller stone with the names and dates was just as durable and left just as permanent a record for family, friends and historians.

[Ianab]

He had one very large that maybe sold for $5K back then then he had a mid size for about $2400 and a small version that sold for around $800

I guess the thing was he had that range of product. They were all perfectly good, as in "fit for purpose".


Similar if people want a table.
OK, here's a slab of pine, flattened, sanded and varnished, with cheap metal "pin" legs. Takes maybe a day to make, but you can sell that for $hundreds". It's not fine furniture, but it's "fit for purpose". Better than Chinese MDF, and at least in the same ballpark price wise. Now you want better wood / design / finish? Here's the options $$$. If it's going to take a week to build, it has to be worth thousands.


Not everyone is going to pay the high end prices, and maybe 90% of the people you talk to will be better off politely being sent to Ikea.

[Hilltop366]

The issue with making the same piece from different materials is the tools, shop time, shop supplies and labour are going to be about the same for each one, the cost difference is only going to be the base materials which is not a huge factor on smaller projects and possibly finishing time if a different finishing method is used.

I can see the budget version being under priced in order to not over price the deluxe.

Reminds me of the local guy that had a GM dealership in the 80's and sold a bunch of cars to a foreign country in the middle east (thinking it was 700 to 800 cars), GM offered the car with a standard transmission so they could advertise it with a lower list price but they never actually made any with a standard and that is what the costumer insisted on getting, GM ended up having to make the cars with the standard transmission and sell them cheaper than the automatics even though it cost them more to make.

[WV Sawmiller]

   When I go to one of my shows/flea markets and take my primitive benches I take some unfinished ash or oak and others that have been finished (sanded and tung oil - I don't have the skills, tools or shop space to do the fine finish work Tom and others do) ones out of walnut, maple or cherry and list them for double to triple the unfinished. Some customers just say I want something rustic for the cabin or hunting camp and are fine with the unfinished. Others want the nicer versions. I'll have some with Lichtenburg engraving as eye catchers and conversation pieces to get people to stop and talk.

[Big_eddy]

It seems to me that this is a hobby that is expected to help pay bills, so fundamentally it comes down to whether when you finish the project you feel like you received enough compensation for the materials and effort you put into it. In other words, was it worth it?

Someone mentioned $15 an hour at Walmart. You'd have to pay me a lot more than $15 an hour to put in an 8hr day at Walmart and I wouldn't enjoy a minute of it, but I'd happily putter all day in the shop and if I sold something I made for $120, I'd be delighted. Same time, same payout, one worth it, the other not.

[Ianab]

The issue with making the same piece from different materials is the tools, shop time, shop supplies and labour are going to be about the same for each one, the cost difference is only going to be the base materials which is not a huge factor on smaller projects and possibly finishing time if a different finishing method is used.

For sure. making the "same" item in a different material is about the same amount of work, only the raw material cost changes. Now that can be significant in some cases, if the "raw material" is a huge slab of exotic wood, and is worth $1,000 before you start, and you add another $1,000 of work to it, the raw material cost is significant.

But if you start with $100 of Pine, or $200 of Ash, and add the same $1,000 of work, then it's a $1,100 table vs a $1,200 table. That's where the fallacy of "X" time the cost of materials that some people use falls down. Cost of materials might be 50% of the project, or it might be 10%. Total cost is materials + labour (and overheads). Not any fixed %. Even if Santa drops off the wood for free, it's still going to be a $1,000 table once you build it. 

My suggestion though was making a simpler table. Now you have your labour cost down to maybe $500, and can sell the simple pine table for $600.

WV has the idea. Benches can be finished, or raw wood. Finishing an item is a lot of work, but he can capture the "I want rustic", the "I can varnish that myself at home", AND the "I want it shiny and new, and will pay extra for that" crowds.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, my last show of the year is in the books and I am glad to have it 'done'. Doing shows mess me up a bit to get last minute stuff made for the show, having everything staged, priced out, cleaned, and ready to load at the shop door for a week or more ahead, and all the other 'stuff' that goes along with it.
Not a great show, after the entry fee I cleared just under $100. but it was only 4 hours. Most of my sales came between 10 minutes before closing and 20 minutes after closing ( I had to unpack stuff after just packing it). This show I had to carry all my stuff about 100' into the building to my booth which pithed me off because there is a 'load-in' area that would have cut the distance to about 30', but some jerk had a car parked blocking access that never moved all day so all the vendors had a lot of carrying to do.
My first sale was 20 minutes into the show, then nothing until the above mentioned sales. Of course there were many conversations and contacts made which will turn into something or nothing, that's the game, right?



 

I had the only 10x10 booth at the show, all the rest were small items sellers, jewelry, homemade stuff, pillows, and that sort of thing on single tables. Got the usual comments "Your Stuff is nice", 'Your stuff is underpriced', 'you do some really nice stuff' (which makes me wonder: "some?!", does that mean the rest is not nice?), etc. All from folks that didn't buy anything. ;D Several folks with no cash, checkbook, or Venmo, who thought the whole world took credit cards. I do not, and neither do the majority of vendors around these parts where internet at shows is very rare.

So loading in and out was not a lot of fun, but not terrible, I am just old and need something to complain about. ;D  The show itself was comfortable, all the vendors seemed to be pros, they got their vehicles unloaded into their booths and moved them out to make room for others before setting up. Loading out, none started packing early, but when closing time came, they didn't waste time and most were done and gone in 30 minutes. No load out traffic jam at all. Easy. First time I have seen that with all the shows I had done alone, or helping my wife for 20 years. There are always a few folks that seem to be 'challenged' by the packing out issue in many different ways. Kind of like watching the free town boat ramp on a Saturday afternoon in July. :D
But, soon after the show opened, the rain started, and was fairly steady at closing time, which meant, for the second show in a row, I was driving home in a steady rain with a truckload full of wet furniture and soaking wet moving blankets. >:( I'm getting used to it and was ready for it.) I had my shed cleared and got home, backed right up to the shed and offloaded everything. I had jammed a few benches in the cab as well as all the stuff (signs and small stuff) I could fit. This show I also had some kind of plastic/foldable amazon shipping bag/box with a zippered top that took a lot of my smalls and kept them dry, but it was heavy and I could barely lift it in and out of the truck, but that saved a lot of drying. Love to get another one.
Anyway, after unloading I went and dried everything. I have the soaked moving blankets drying in the shop along with the drying rags. They have water just running out all over the floor. Checked in with the wife and gave the required report ( who did I see, what did I sell, how did it go?), put on dry shirts, went back out and did some sanding on the epoxy of the current build, and puttered in the shop. Had dinner, and now it's time to go tend the shop stove for the overnight plus the house stove. Tomorrow I'll get back in the groove and set up for the winter season moving stuff in the shop and trying to get this current job finished this week.
So another show and I learned more stuff. After the last show where I sold a mess of those device stands and knew I had to make more, well I had a ton for this show and sold none. I did give two away as gifts, one to the gal that designed my logo, and another to Jay Unger who wanted to buy one, but I wouldn't have that. I have gained a lot through Jay's music over the last 30 years and there is no way I could take his money, plus, he's a neighbor. ;D
My wife asked me tonight if I was glad I did this one. I had to think on that, but realized I know more now than I did yesterday, I didn't 'lose' money, and I picked up more 'intelligence' on how to set the booth up as I observed people. With few sales, I spent my time watching folks eyes and faces and learned some things.

[Stephen1]

Just found this post. I have been portable sawing for the last 11 years. 5 years ago I bought a new LT40wideHD. I also purchased the IDR Kiln.
For the last 5 years my Buisness plan has been  "I saw and dry wood'. I don't know how many times over the last 5 years I have to tell myself this.  Before this I would go off in all sorts of different directions,  Cathy has been great at keeping me on track.   
For the last 4 years I have been selling wood on Saturday mornings from 9-12:30. I was following and studying YH. During Covid it was real easy book 30 min appointments and people came in, chatted with me, put money in my hand and took stuff out of my shop, all kiln dried wood, cookies, charcuterie stock, slabs, and a bit of lumber. I could not keep wood in my shop. I started buying my own logs and sawing lumber, and slabs. Learning from the FF and YH and reading about hardwood lumber grading. This year my shop is full, all the walls have wood stacked to the ceiling, and some walls are 2 deep in bundles of wood.
Not as many people spending money in this economy. Now what do I do?
This year I sawed 3 house projects of B&B siding. 1200 1x10x10 and 12' long. lots of physical work that is completely manual, no drag back, no roller tables. Some I had to move my bobcat to get the logs from the arborists yard as he was recuperating in Florida. He will normally deliver or lend me his dump trailer and load the logs and I run them to my shop and dump them off. I am not sure I want to do that next year without changing something in my operation.
I buy hardwood and softwood logs off of him for the same price. .40 cents a bd ft. international scale.
I can sell B&B pine at $2 a bd ft or I can sell kiln dried hardwood lumber at $4-14 a bd ft. Not hard to figure out which is the better move. I also am able to sell KD pine slabs for $5-6 a bd ft which is not terrible but they need to be plus 24" wide.
My next 5 year is what  I am looking at now.  I would like to wind down my portable sawing as it is getting hard on my body and real hard to get anyone to help besides Cathy. Even the customers don't want to help.
Whatcha selling and how are you selling?
My son Has a Degree in computer science or Mathematics. He likes to tell me, he is a scientist and his science is social media. It is a science, of numbers,  no doubt. He runs experiments on convincing people to buy company products. He says in any given number of people there are sales. It is how many people do you have to touch to sell "x" products.  What does it cost to touch that many people to sell your product so you can make money. I was talking to him over the last few weeks as I rethink my next 5 years. 2-3 things came from him for me to think on. Use social media to expand my sales, go from the local population of 30k to a population of +300 million. Think North America. Set up an Etsy store and sell across N. America 400+ million people. I can also just think of my area of Southern Ontario of 10 million. Use my websites and for $2500 he will install a storefront in it and then, use social media to sell from there. His warning to me was "be prepared as he will get me calls no problems, The ? then becomes, will I  be able to handle all the calls and sales to follow.
Tom or any of you that go to craft fairs or shows and you pay x$ to set up a booth and have x people come by your booth. What are the #s? Are you there to make money or their for the social part of talking to people local?
Tom I see some beautiful wood working objects, but for a craft fair before Christmas , people want to spend 20-30 for Christmas presents,  not $150 for themselves. You need to have a bunch charcuterie, cheese board, coat racks, hat racks,  type items for cash Flo and the big items are what you can build for people on consignment. Would a store on Etsy be a better avenue for you? you are computer literate.
A furniture maker down the road from me charges 3x what the wood cost to build something, If he has to think about how to make an item he charges 5x the cost of the wood. He says it has always served him well.
Sorry I got a little carried away while I was waiting for drywall mud to dry. 


 

[Old Greenhorn]

...
Tom or any of you that go to craft fairs or shows and you pay x$ to set up a booth and have x people come by your booth. What are the #s? Are you there to make money or their for the social part of talking to people local?
Tom I see some beautiful wood working objects, but for a craft fair before Christmas , people want to spend 20-30 for Christmas presents,  not $150 for themselves. You need to have a bunch charcuterie, cheese board, coat racks, hat racks,  type items for cash Flo and the big items are what you can build for people on consignment. Would a store on Etsy be a better avenue for you? you are computer literate.
A furniture maker down the road from me charges 3x what the wood cost to build something, If he has to think about how to make an item he charges 5x the cost of the wood. He says it has always served him well.
......................

Well, I didn't know this thread was lot, but I'm glad you found it. ;D

The short answer to your first question is 'yes'. I do it for both. Making contacts is paying off OK or better than show sales for picking up better work (sales).
As for the Etsy thing, last time I checked, they take 40% or more for 'their services' so that makes it a no-go for me, plus all the work that you have to do to set it up and maintain it, plus all the shipping nonsense. I will (and do) ship, but the costs are nuts IMHO and I make it clear to the client as much as I can that I can't help that. Also, I can't see shipping my benches, or even a coat rack given the amount of time and materials that go into packing. But yes, I will ship, I just don't like giving 40% of my sales to a website while I still do most of the work. That's just me.

It's not all that hard to get your name and stuff out there, but finding a million people that are too far away to buy lumber won't help you much. If you are selling smaller stuff, then you are back into the packing/shipping issues.

As far as my booth goes, I did not bring all my stuff and only had a few examples or larger pieces, plus a slideshow on a tablet showing other work that was not there. I did increase the number of low dollar items for this one. I only sold to coat racks (the top and bottom ones in the photo) and one stool. I don't make cheese boards but maybe I should give it a try. I am just about out of lumber right now.

I guess we all have to find and follow our own path Steve. Keep us informed how your new plan works, I am more than curious.

[aigheadish]

Tom, we may have discussed this a bit when we were there, or I may have mentioned it elsewhere and it kind of applies now...

My wife has done a fair amount of selling her bags, https://www.etsy.com/shop/TiarellasClutch (shameless plug for beautiful bags/purses) on Etsy and says for it to be effective you really need to keep up with it. The sales, unless you are some viral hit, tend to come, due to their algo's, after posting new things every day or close to it. Granted her work flow is not optimized because she doesn't see the value in posting from her phone, it still is a lot to keep up with with adding photos and descriptions and junk, not to mention running to the post office all the time and in your case packaging and such.

I think there is a place for Etsy, other than the fees being crazy, but it's smalls or light stuff that is easy to move.

[caveman]

Tom, I skimmed this thread but have not read it closely.  Jmoore, my best friend and sawmill business partner, is very talented at building furniture.  That is the part of the reason we purchased our first mill.  We realized after a weekend of sawing that we either needed to sell lumber, custom saw or sell the mill.  We've kind of done all three.  We have built some stuff for folks for money, but we have spent much more time sawing as it pays the bills.

I try to keep track of our time and expenses when we do build items for customers.  Usually, we'll sell them wood and I'll refer them to one our competent friends to do the furniture building.  We can generally make more money per hour running the mill.  Sometimes, we will take short slabs that have not sold and make benches out of them.  We use them to stack wood on when showing wood to customers or stocking our bins.  These benches are always for sale and we sell a few.  They are also hand places to park ourselves and drink cold beer after a long, hot day of the material handling processes. 

Another thing to consider is to place an ad on Craig's List for NYC or other areas with money and people who don't know how to do the things you know how to do/build.  Some of our customers drive a long way and pass a lot of other sources to buy wood from us.  CL is the only place we advertise, and we generally stay as busy as we want to be.   

I completely agree with Jake.  If someone does not want to pay our prices, I'll suggest that they go somewhere else.  No hard feelings here.  I'll go fishing, for a walk, read the FF or at least not put wear and tear on machines.

[Hamajama]

I think there is a place for Etsy, other than the fees being crazy, but it's smalls or light stuff that is easy to move.

This. Etsy takes 6.5% off the top. On top of that, if a customer saw an ad anywhere for that listing (Google, FB, etc.), clicked on the link, and made the purchase within 30 days, Etsy will take an additional 15% (up to $100) as an off-site add fee. Just something to keep in mind. I got burnt one too many times, especially factoring in freight, fuel, and time (if you deliver), equating to a minimal net gain. I wrote it off after that.

I've had some success from posting on marketplace; however, be prepared for the tire kickers and balkers. I'd suggest casting as far as a net as you are willing to go to reach the $$$ locations.