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Author Topic: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support  (Read 1141 times)

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Offline Don P

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2021, 08:58:44 AM »
For this it isn't a tipping, see-saw, problem. The "control" is bending failure in the main 20' span rather than in the 4' overhang. I would not use tile in the bathroom on that kind of beam span or joist span and spacing. Experiment with making the overhang longer and watch what it does to the main span bending moment and point of max moment, the see-saw is on that end.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2021, 06:59:15 PM »
For this it isn't a tipping, see-saw, problem. The "control" is bending failure in the main 20' span rather than in the 4' overhang. I would not use tile in the bathroom on that kind of beam span or joist span and spacing. Experiment with making the overhang longer and watch what it does to the main span bending moment and point of max moment, the see-saw is on that end.
shucks. Thought that'd be alright on the span. 3 questions if I may.

1. what size beam wood you be comfy with if one wanted tile

2. and if not tile, but just what you'd put

3. how far could you move the post back if any and if any, wood that solve the above question? Reason I had post there was the wall upstairs being directly above
thanks

Offline Don P

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2021, 08:42:58 PM »
With a 20' beam span and wide centers on joists I doubt tile would hold up, I'd use sheet vinyl or a laminate. Don't move the post back if there is a wall above, adding another post would help but the joists are long span and widely spaced so bag the tile. Basically get all deflections, beam, joist, floor sheathing to L/480 or stiffer and it has a chance, but it probably still will crack.
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Offline Sedgehammer

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Having an issue with getting that SYP beam i was suppose to be getting...... I can go reclaimed, but that's over 4k. Nope. Thinking about metal. Prefer rec tubing. I'm coming up with a 12x16x.5 has .314 deflection vs .220 for the wood beam. That can't be right, can it? I'm using 16,440 lbs for the force.

Here's the link Rec tubing calculator


Quote
"Plan view"

And that is why we use drawings, that is nothing like what the word pictures had conjured up in my head. Don't try to describe stuff, draw it and draw it well.

Tributary area supported by the beam is highlighted within the red box;

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)


Trib width would be 16' x 50psf (40LL+10DL) = 800 lbs per lineal foot load on the beam.

This calc;
https://forestryforum.com/members/donp/oerhangbm.htm

You're cutting it mighty fine in #1SYP

Offline Don P

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2021, 09:11:32 PM »
That is a simple beam calc, a beam between 2 supports. What we've been talking about is a beam with an overhang. That is a different set of equations, the load on the overhang is reducing the deflection. I also do not recognize the equation he is using, not saying I've run it against the standard equation to see if he is getting the same result by another path but based on the spelling and notational peculiarities I'm a little leery. Might try engineers edge for a calc.

It would take more rewriting than I have time to modify the wood calc for this. This is the equations you need, it comes from the AISC steel construction manual. The bottom 2 equations are deflection;


For I his equation is correct;
Quote
MI for hollow rectangle beams = ((Width * Height3) - (Inside_width * Inside_height3)) / 12
E is 29,000,000
For x use the equation locating the point of zero shear in the middle graphic. for x1  use a.
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Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2021, 07:48:27 AM »
That is a simple beam calc, a beam between 2 supports. What we've been talking about is a beam with an overhang. That is a different set of equations, the load on the overhang is reducing the deflection. I also do not recognize the equation he is using, not saying I've run it against the standard equation to see if he is getting the same result by another path but based on the spelling and notational peculiarities I'm a little leery. Might try engineers edge for a calc.

It would take more rewriting than I have time to modify the wood calc for this. This is the equations you need, it comes from the AISC steel construction manual. The bottom 2 equations are deflection;
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

For I his equation is correct;
Quote
MI for hollow rectangle beams = ((Width * Height3) - (Inside_width * Inside_height3)) / 12
E is 29,000,000
For x use the equation locating the point of zero shear in the middle graphic. for x1  use a.
yes, that's a simple beam, but as you said, if with an overhang it acts as a deflection in the main support area. If beam passes simple beam, it passes the one with the small overhang
That's more math then I trust myself to do, to just get an idea what might work, to see if cost effective. simple math i'm better then most, but that wood take me to area's of my mind that haven't been explored in many years....... :laugh:
I'll also try and run it by my engineer, but he's not always conducive to answering things just to get an idea if

Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2021, 10:20:32 AM »
scratch all that. Just will use an H beam like your calcs allow, but heavier then needed. maybe a 14x43. Not that it is needed. just looks better i think. I can inlay the web w/ wood. Maybe drill 1" holes every 2' and use sq headed bolts and nuts to bolt it

Now what post does one use......


Offline Gary_C

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2021, 11:07:03 AM »
Now what post does one use......
A mighty big and well protected one because your life and entire structure may well depend on that single post. Better think about footing required too.  ::)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2021, 10:44:26 AM »
@Gary_C  yup. agreed

@Don P if you wood chime in on this please sir

according to this column toolbox and the numbers used, a SYP #1, 10x10 passes easily. But maybe my inputs are off, as it looks like a 2x2 wood pass, so somethings wrong i figure
I used the following inputs;
unbraced length = 106" ceiling is 10' - a 14' H beam = 106"
depth = 10"
width = 10"
compression = 7,130
elasticity = 1.79
load = 16,044

and what sized footing wood be recommended

Offline Gary_C

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2021, 11:44:19 AM »
Murphy's Law should be be telling you to look for another alternative. Putting all your eggs in one basket is risky. 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2021, 02:32:55 PM »
Eggs are for  digin1 .......  ;D

Looking at all options at this point, but I think a 10"x will suffice, but I'll see if Don or someone else can make tails or heads off my inputs were correct

I think a 3' sq x 1' deep footing will be more then adequate from what I have read

Offline Don P

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2021, 08:41:55 PM »
I could look at the calc but with those dimensions there's another way to look at it. If the post is 1" thick in least dimension for each foot of height... that is if the post is a 10x10 and is 10' tall, it isn't going to fail by buckling. Old engineers called that ratio a short column. The only check you need to do is compression, it will fail by crushing. Take the 100 square inch post top and multiply it by the allowable Fc parallel to grain, shoot low, use 525 psi (there's your error above) =52,500 lbs allowable load. It is a pretty stout basket.

Footing, the distance from edge of post horizontally to edge of footing is also how thick it should be. Close enough there. At least a # grid of rebar in the lower third, no steel closer than 3" to soil anywhere.

Footing size = load/allowable soil bearing capacity. Assuming 2,000psf allowable soil capacity x 9 sf of footing = 18,000 lbs allowable, plastic clays can be down around 1500 and muck can be worthless. Think about your wheel loads and whether you stick trucks. Too small is no bargain if its soft.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2021, 08:15:46 AM »
Thanks!

Stout indeed! Me bride wants to use one of our largest ERC logs that we cut down this spring. I see it's even stouter in that regard. I'm just having a hard time with right angled interior wood/metal w/ a round post...... does not compute, does not compute..... :o

Offline trimguy

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2021, 06:49:48 PM »
It does not have to compute, just accept it . You know she right.😁

Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2021, 01:44:31 AM »
It does not have to compute, just accept it . You know she right.😁
i've never seen a woman be so right about so many things and she's not arrogant about it. she's just smart. with that said, she's not always right......... smiley_crying

Offline Sedgehammer

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2021, 12:33:11 AM »
I could look at the calc but with those dimensions there's another way to look at it. If the post is 1" thick in least dimension for each foot of height... that is if the post is a 10x10 and is 10' tall, it isn't going to fail by buckling. Old engineers called that ratio a short column. The only check you need to do is compression, it will fail by crushing. Take the 100 square inch post top and multiply it by the allowable Fc parallel to grain, shoot low, use 525 psi (there's your error above) =52,500 lbs allowable load. It is a pretty stout basket.

If i twas to use a green syp post. say a 12x12 or even larger, what amount of end shrinkage wood I have? i know it wood take several years for it to completely dry, but is it an amount that wood have sheetrock not happy?

Offline Don P

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Re: Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2021, 07:14:45 AM »
Very little shrinkage in length unless it is full of juvenile wood or twisted grain.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester


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