Hydraulics Anywhere

[SawyerTed]

Would one of you knowledgeable Forumites direct me to the hydraulics anywhere modification instructions?  I've spent the last hour and a half using the search function and reading the Useful Mods thread to no avail.

I found the stuff on the second battery and lots of other stuff but not what I need. 

[Southside]

The easiest set up is to wire an Anderson connector to the hydraulic pump, and dangle the wires out of the hydraulic box, hook the other side of the connector to a spare battery, plug them together and voila Hydraulics Everywhere.

[YellowHammer]

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7789.msg242177#msg242177

Here's what I did, following this example.  It works very well, and took about a day of easy labor to implement.  

[SawyerTed]

Thank you to you both!   

Now I need to make a decision between the two methods.  

The second battery only charge while the head is on the contact strip.  Is this correct?  

Using the cables is a one time solution but is likely more expensive.  

[caveman]

We took some welding cable and wired from the hydraulic box to a battery that stays under the tongue of the mill.  Hydraulics should work when the lever is moved.  

[Southside]

Correct it will only charge when the head is on the contact strip. 

[caveman]

We occasionally run a charger on the auxiliary battery.  We bought several battery maintainers last year but have not put one on the mill.  Every month or so we clean the terminals and check the water.  I've never understood why WM did not make hydraulics available regardless of where the saw head is.  As I complete a cut, John can release the clamp, raise the backstops and toe rollers and I can drag back the boards.

[customsawyer]

Caveman I now have a question. How do you drag the last boards back if John has raised the side supports/back stops? In my mind they would knock your blade off.
With my remote mill I ran the welding cable. I didn't want to be bothered with the extra battery. It might be a little bit more costly to start with but where you plan to do mobile sawing you won't have to load and unload a battery every job.

[caveman]

I actually roll the bottom couple of boards towards the tongue end of the mill with my hands as the toe rollers and the back stops are raised.  As soon as the blade clears the last board, I hit auto up to 16" to get ready for the next log.  I think you (Jake) use the reference button to do the same after you drag the bottom boards back with the mill.

If we had command control and the cat track, we would have added a cable.  We considered adding more copper strips along the side of the mill, but the battery was easy.

[SawyerTed]

After looking at it and sleeping on it,  command control makes the Bibbyman/welding cable solution better long term than second battery.  Walk along/ride along could be different. 

The price difference between the 2 methods of hydraulics anywhere isn't much and appears to favor the Bibbyman method. 

It looks like welding cable and connector lugs will cost $225 ish.   That eliminates the need for a second battery and cabling which will cost $190-200 ish.  Operating portable would necessitate a battery box and fabrication of a mount which will cost at least $25 and maybe $50. Close to even and the second battery method might be more.  I've not figure the cost of a charger.  

When cost and mobility are compared, the Bibbyman welding cable solution seems to offer the the simplest long term solution.  It eliminates second battery maintenance/charging issues.  It also eliminates the possibility of having a second battery go dead on a job.  

The main advantage I see to having hydraulics anywhere is log/cant handling with the head at the far end of the mill (visibility) and unclamping for drag back which eliminates a trip down and back. 

[47sawdust]

Southside ,
What size Anderson connector are you using?
I have an older LT30 ,1997.
Any reason not to use this with my mill?

Found them.

[YellowHammer]

The hydraulics anywhere is one reason I bought the Super 70 hydraulic, because it has that feature, and after I had it on my LT40 for so many years, I would not consider a mill without it, whether you go with the cables or extra batteries.  It's THAT useful.  

Putting HA on your mill will significantly increase it productivity.
It's a one and done mod, once installed it never needs fiddling and just becomes "part of the mill."
It eliminates the issues with the contact strip, i.e. intermittent grounding, sparking arcing and the odd electrical issues associated with each.
I allows getting out of "opps" moments, such as lowering backstops that are too high just as the blade is about to hit, and doing "jogs" with the 2 plane clamp, sliding the log inboard and making adjustments with the toebaords while the head is jammed halfway down the carriage into a too big or crooked log.  

Allows adjustment of clamps and backstops during the cut when edging, if necessary.

It lets me preposition a log on the loader arms while I'm cutting, simultaneously while sawing.

That's actually the biggest advantage, many movements you are used to doing sequentially can now new done simultaneously while sawing.

It also helps with the other items you mentioned. 
   

[Sixacresand]

When I need hydraulics away from the strip, I use jumper cables.  In an tight, I have tied a hydraulic lever in the down position and manually pulled down back stops, clamps or loading arms.  Sometimes I can get away with it.  

[Southside]

Every piece of equipment I own has a 200 amp Anderson pigtail hanging on it. Even the roll around battery charger. This way I can roll anything up to anything and get power to it if necessary.

[barbender]

One upgrade I want to do on my pickup is an Anderson plug ran to the back, do I can ug my dump trailers in. Otherwise it seems like they are always dead at an inopportune time.

[Magicman]

I recently did this mod on my sawmill:  LINK

But this is nowhere near the subject of this Topic and what Ted needs and is gonna do.

[SawyerTed]

Lynn, that's a slick solution and could be an easy way to connect an auxiliary battery for hydraulics anywhere on a ride along/walk along mill.  And hey, if it helps someone else with a solution, it adds to the conversation!  The beauty of the Forum!  

[barbender]

I like when new people come on the Forum, and try to dictate what is discussed on a post. "Ok, I'd like to keep this on topic and not discuss other stuff  this post." Sorry buddy, that's not how it works here😊

[Percy]

After looking at it and sleeping on it,  command control makes the Bibbyman/welding cable solution better long term than second battery.  Walk along/ride along could be different.

The price difference between the 2 methods of hydraulics anywhere isn't much and appears to favor the Bibbyman method.

It looks like welding cable and connector lugs will cost $225 ish.   That eliminates the need for a second battery and cabling which will cost $190-200 ish.  Operating portable would necessitate a battery box and fabrication of a mount which will cost at least $25 and maybe $50. Close to even and the second battery method might be more.  I've not figure the cost of a charger.  

When cost and mobility are compared, the Bibbyman welding cable solution seems to offer the the simplest long term solution.  It eliminates second battery maintenance/charging issues.  It also eliminates the possibility of having a second battery go dead on a job.  

The main advantage I see to having hydraulics anywhere is log/cant handling with the head at the far end of the mill (visibility) and unclamping for drag back which eliminates a trip down and back.

I did the welding cable thing to my remote LT70 17 years ago. Still kicking 😊

[SawyerTed]

@barbender that's absolutely right!

Threads here can be like a conversation among a group of friends, it starts one place and goes somewhere else.  

Sometimes Often the resulting twists and turns lead to valuable knowledge. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

Search on "solder" and username pnyberg

[barbender]

Yep, even if we start on hydraulics and end up on a pulled pork recipe, aren't we all the richer for it?😊 I view it the same as you Ted, a conversation among friends- which it absolutely is!👍

[47sawdust]

Kinda like being at a party where everyone has that attention disorder.

[Southside]

Maybe train a chicken to run the hydraulics when you are at the far end?  :D

[Percy]

Maybe train a chicken to run the hydraulics when you are at the far end?  :D

Then eat the chicken 🤣

[PAmizerman]

When I did mine I ran both a hot and ground wire. Later I put them in a split loom protective sleeve . The back and forth in the track was wearing through the jacket. 

[thechknhwk]

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7789.msg242177#msg242177

Here's what I did, following this example.  It works very well, and took about a day of easy labor to implement.  

From looking at those pictures.  I just don't understand how to route the cables so they aren't ripped off when the mill head goes down to the far end.  Like there has to be a cable connected to the hyd pump from the battery at all times, and when the cat track is coiled in a "U" shape at the end away from the hitch how in the world can the cable stay in the cat track and still be connected to the pump?  Anyone have any other pictures or videos for this dummy it would be greatly appreciated.

[SawyerTed]

The cables run from the hydraulic box, down the frame of the cat track to the middle of the frame.  The cables then enter the cat track at the bottom stationary part.  They route through the cat track to the head/solenoid. 

The section between the hydraulic box and the stationary end of the cat track is what Bibbyman later posted he installed in conduit.  

[YellowHammer]

I looked t several different types of cables and went to my local welding shop and they had some "super duty" cable that had slightly thicker insulation than usual but was amazingly flexible.  I also ran a ground wire because some of the issues I had been having was due to the grounding system.  

As Sawyer says, the cables need to come right into the stationary frame at the start of the cat track just like all the other lines and they should lay easily and loose in the track.  

[thechknhwk]

Thanks fellas, I figured it out last night.  Then realized my wire is about 10' short >:(

[YellowHammer]

Just cut shorter logs?? ;D

[thechknhwk]

Thought I would add some pictures for the learning disables like me :D

Pic of the battery box mess ahead of time with crappy corroded positive clamp.




Pic of cluttered relay enclosure with relay still in place.




Coil removed.




Pic of where the cables need to go.




Cable location and my splice from erroneous wire length procurement.




1/0 welding cable in the cat track.  I later zip tied it between every zip tie that was already there being careful not to go too tight.




Battery box after cleanup.




Couple pics of the hydraulic box post install.  Also needed a new pump motor, hydros are nice and fast (normal again)







I forgot to take a pic of the coil box, but I eliminated the coil so my hydraulics will work without the key which is neither a negative or positive to me, but it did give me more room to make the redundant positive connections and route my negative wire from the battery through.  I'll try to remember to take some more pics.

[GAB]

Thanks fellas, I figured it out last night.  Then realized my wire is about 10' short >:(

Count your blessings it was all at only one end.
GAB

[PAmizerman]

Keep an eye on the cable to make sure it doesn't rub through. I put mine in a protective sleeve like all the other original wires after it wore through in a few places 

[Sod saw]

.


It appears that the positive wire to the hydraulic pump is attached directly to the positive terminal of the battery.

If I am wrong, please ignore this note.

If I am correct, please add a fuse (Fuses are sized by wire size and motor size) at the battery to protect that long unfused wire to the hydraulic pump.   

Without a fuse to protect that long wire a fire could be the result of a mouse or wearing thru of the insulation.  Even the best quality wire is prone to wear and tear and mice don't care about burning your mill and buildings.

note to Yellowhammer:   Your high quality flexible wire might be the result of flexible rubber insulation, and/or smaller more flexible strands within your wire jacket.  More quantity of smaller gauge strands will help with flexibility .  Higher quality wire sometimes equals more dollars, but well worth it in my opinion.


.

[SawyerTed]

 I finally got the Hydraulics Anywhere upgrade installed.   Since I am portable, the welding cable method made the most sense.   Mounting a second battery would have approached the cost of the welding cable method.  This way it's done without the battery management- the copper strip is gone.

It is exactly as Bibbyman described. 

Two 1/0 "super flexible" welding cables.  I measured and measured again and thought 75' total would be about right.   I had 8 feet left over. 

Go ahead and get lugs from whoever you get the cable from.  There are two cables from the copper strip, 1 goes to each solenoid in the hydraulic box.  Replacing this end was simple and straightforward.

I had two pieces of liquid tight pvc conduit left over from other work.  I Rand the cables through these.   One was 1" and one was 1/2".  The welding cable was a snug fit in the 1/2". I'll be replacing the 1" with 1/2" next week.  These conduit rest on the brackets that hold the energy chain track.  There's plenty of clearance there. 

The solenoid box on the head was the challenge.  It's tight and the cable is tough to get the radius needed.  Eventually I worked the cables and lugs onto the solenoid post. 

Besides the cable, all that's needed are 4 cable lugs, a grommet for the second cable to go into the solenoid box in the head, two sticks of conduit and an abrasion protection sleeve for the cables in the energy chain.

As far as fuses, the hydraulic circuits are already fused in the solenoid box on the head.   The addition of the cables only replaces the copper strip so no additional protection is needed.



 

 

I'm thinking there may be a method to spice to the cable that connects to the contact for the copper strip and avoid the connection issues in the solenoid box. 

[YellowHammer]

I took my copper strip off, as it seems that removing a possible cause of arcing and sparking would help protect the electrical system. 

[stavebuyer]

The best upgrade you can do is to eliminate the DC hydraulics and plumb in an independent hydraulic system. Whatever works best for your system be it a 3-phase electric power unit or 5 hp gas. Hydraulics anywhere, higher gpm, ability to power ancillary decks and best of all eliminate the arcing that leads to premature failure of the h-bridge.


Bibbyman was a pioneer and I shamelessly followed his lead.

[Southside]

Ted, I am a little slow so not understanding why the cable would be in the PVC instead of the energy chain itself.

[SawyerTed]

The cable does run through the energy chain. 

The cable runs from the hydraulic box where the two hydraulic pumps/solenoids are located  to the stationary section of the energy chain. Then through the energy chain to the head.  At the head the connection is made to the solenoid at the head. 

So the run from the hydraulic box to the stationary end of the energy chain runs in conduit.

[Southside]

Ahh - that makes sense.  I was thinking of my 70 as the hydraulic valves are in the center of the mill, along with yet another CPU, and not at the head like on the 50, basically where your hard conduit ends, forgot about that difference. 

[SawyerTed]

I overlooked posting the total cost of the upgrade. 

Cable 75' including tax and delivery - $301.46 (8 feet left over)
Cable Lugs- $5.20 ($1.30 each)
Conduit - $27
Abrasion protection sleeve - $10.50
Grommet - $1
Total $345.16

Compared to second battery
200 amp cable connector-$32 recommended
Cables - $36 (per foot cost same as above)
Lugs - $5.20 4 as above
Battery - $160 equivalent to Woodmizer OE Deka
Battery mount and box - $63 (for portable sawing)
Total - $269.20

It cost more than twice Bibbyman's original estimate of $150.  He got his cable for half what I paid and I shopped around for two weeks.  His costs were 2006 prices and I included the conduit and abrasion sleeve.

As Yellowhammer mentioned somewhere, the welding cable solution is "one and done."  No worries about battery charging etc. 

It took about 2 1/2 hours, 45 minutes of that was putzing around with the cables and solenoid in the solenoid box.   It's tight in the box and cables need convincing to make the necessary radius.  It might be easier to make a large loop in the box. 

[YellowHammer]

Great job!  You will go so used to it so fast, you'll never understand how you got along without it.  It's a huge upgrade. 

[SawyerTed]

The best upgrade you can do is to eliminate the DC hydraulics and plumb in an independent hydraulic system. Whatever works best for your system be it a 3-phase electric power unit or 5 hp gas. Hydraulics anywhere, higher gpm, ability to power ancillary decks and best of all eliminate the arcing that leads to premature failure of the h-bridge.

Bibbyman was a pioneer and I shamelessly followed his lead.

I am a firm believer in R&D - ripoff and duplicate!  Bibbyman still sets the pace for some of us.  That's why I made sure to credit him.

For stationary milling the auxiliary hydraulic power unit would be ideal - either ICE or electric and especially electric!

Not so much for portable milling.  The 12 volt DC with alternator charging is simply more portable.   Elimination of the copper strip gets rid of arcing issues.   

A ground run through the energy chain is one more way to eliminate ground issues - redundancy (or deletion) of the ground shoe that rides on the bottom rail.

I have about a dozen personal logs to mill as of yesterday so I'm looking forward to exercising this modification

[Peter Drouin]

Bibbyman was there back when Wood Mizer came out with the CBN sharpener and setter. Working with them to get out the info to show us.
Very smart man.    :christmas:    And a    :new_year:
Bibbyman.

[fluidpowerpro]

Another option is a small engine driven hydraulic power unit. That is what I have on my mobile mill.

[caveman]

A young fellow in the southern part of our county (Polk) has an engine driven power unit attached to his older LT-40.  It sits on a pallet, and he attaches it with quick attach fittings.  When that engine is revved up a bit, that mill has lightning-fast hydraulics.  At idle speed they are faster than a Super.

[SawyerTed]

All things considered, is an internal combustion engine auxiliary hydraulic unit going to speed things up enough to pay for the operational expense, transportation expense and time to set up for a portable job? 

[fluidpowerpro]

Mine is mounted to my sawmill so there is no set up involved. Most mills could get by with a 6.5 HP unit, so not big gas hogs.

[SawyerTed]

Just the 6.5 hp engine will cost $400, plus pump, plus hoses plus mount for the motor.

So the auxiliary engine is more cost, ongoing operational costs and additional maintenance. 

Not for me.

[fluidpowerpro]

The last 6.5 HP engine I bought cost $99. I'm not trying to sell anyone on it. Just saying that if you want full time hydraulics, it's an option.

[Stephen1]

The last 6.5 HP engine I bought cost $99. I'm not trying to sell anyone on it. Just saying that if you want full time hydraulics, it's an option.

I like what you did Ted, but on my 40 I can not do that.
FP adding a small motor seems like a great idea to speed up hydraulics also, but the extra handling is not for me

I am portable quite a bit, even at my shop I am portable in that I put the mill away most nights, it lives in my shop when it is not sawing.
What do people do on a 40? Run a copper strip the whole way? Just add a battery to the Hydraulic box?
Running a copper strip seems like a heck of a lot of extra maintenance keeping the strip clean and underneath bar shinny.

[SawyerTed]

The options without an energy chain are a second copper strip, an external hydraulic power unit (doesn't require the copper strip) or adding a second battery (supplying power independent of the strip).

I used a couple of those $99 engines on a hydraulic log splitter.  They just didn't hold up.

[terrifictimbersllc]

In case more words and pics help understanding of the hydraulics anywhere modification......

Here's another description (PNyberg)  of creating hydraulcs anywhere on a front remote mill running welding cable through the cat track:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=44402.msg639595#msg639595


And where I did it to my 2001 front remote 40Super:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7789.msg1644493#msg1644493

[stavebuyer]

All things considered, is an internal combustion engine auxiliary hydraulic unit going to speed things up enough to pay for the operational expense, transportation expense and time to set up for a portable job?

Yes. DC motors are far from trouble, cost and maintenance free. You can be setting up your next log when the head is in motion cutting the current log. Just about all my lost time was due to DC related failures. The cost to run a lawn mower engine is chump change compared to the extra productivity. You will not find a single person who has run stand-alone hydraulics changing them back to running a 12v power strip.