Has anyone heard of this stuff.......?

[Steven A.]

The forest products laboratory at the University of Wisconsin might be able to give you information about the usefulness of the product.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/

[PineNut]

Has anyone had any experience with CedarTreat?

[turningfool]

read the cedar oil treatment article and it was very interesting..it soulds a lot like pentacryl.and in the same price range excepting that with pentacryl non oil based finished work well too..i use woodturners finish myself ..a type of padding laquer that goes on quickly and dries rapidly..some folks like "sheen"..i like "shine".

[Nudgewood]

Hi, I found this thread (and this site) while Googling "CedarCide" a couple of days ago and joined just to add my two cents.

I bought a gal each of CedarTreat and CedarSheild. I cut a lot of one-eighth square by six-inch long pine stakes, half from dry wood and half from fresh cut. I dipped four stakes of each (wet and dry) into each gal for thirty seconds and stuck them halfway into soil in a mudbucket, covered it in plastic and set it in a warm place to grow some fungus.

I also got one gal worth of LifeTime and did the same:
http://www.valhalco.com/index.htm

So (on Dec 19) the bucket was baited and tagged with:

4X dry Cedarshield
4X wet Cedarsheild
4X dry CedarTreat
4X wet CedarTreat
4X dry LifeTime
4X wet LifeTime
4X dry Control
4X wet Control

So far all eight of the Control stakes have sprouted a healthy growth of fungus on the above-ground parts and all the treated ones are still free and clear. It's only been a week so I won't be looking at the underground parts for some time yet, but I reckon the results should be clear in a month or two. So far it looks good.

Thanks PineKnot for starting this thread and FWIW I felt reassured by my conversations with Dave Glassel that this stuff was indeed the real deal and not snakeoil. We'll see!


%<

[Furby]

I'm wondering if there would be a problem with this stuff if for some reason it didn't penetrate all the way through the lumber and then created it's water proof barrier and some moisture was sealed inside.
Would the lumber or timber rot from the inside out?

[scsmith42]

Nudgewood, welcome to the forum and thank's for leaping in with both feet!  I'm looking forward to hearing what your experiences are, as well as what Pinenot came up with.

Regards,

Scott

[seb]

Have you any further results it has been many months since your last post??

[FC_PineKnot]

Hey Guys,

Sorry I've been so long in updating this thread with my results.  I sent an email to Dave Glassel at Cedarcide over a week ago, and I've been waiting on some answers to a few questions before I posted all the results.  Since I still haven't heard from him, I'll try to get all my notes together and post them and some pics this weekend.  Please be patient - I've really been overloaded lately and just can't get everything done!

I will say that I've had mixed feelings about my results so far.  For one thing, it took lots of time and effort to treat the lumber, and then it took WAY MORE of the solution than the charts say it should.  But there are some things I liked.

Maybe I can finish up tomorrow and at least get some of it posted.

Nudgewood and seb - Welcome to the forum!  I'm also anxious to hear how Nudgewood's treatment turns out.

[TexasTimbers]

Well heck I discover another awesome thread I missed and PineNut teases us and nudgewood is AWOL.  :D

[FC_PineKnot]

Well, here's what I've put together so far:

I needed about 1000 BF of SYP 2x6's for the floor of the gazebo I planned to build for the wife.  I constructed a vat of 2 pieces of sheet metal, finished size about 17 ft. long by 18 in. wide.  I caulked the center joint and ends with silicon.  After several days I filled it with water to check for leaks.  Found none.  Pumped out the water and a few days later placed a couple of test boards in the vat and brushed on some CedarTreat solution.  I planned to partially bury them after curing so I could observe how well the solution protected them over time.  There was a very small amount of the solution that was left in the bottom of the vat when I finished (mostly just a light film on the sheet metal.)  Later, when I had planned to start treating, I noticed that the silicon caulking was beginning to turn loose from the sheet metal!  I guess the oil had seeped under the caulk and caused it to lose it's adhesion to the metal! 

So, I went out and bought some heavy plastic sheeting to cover the inside of the vat.  Placed 2 layers over sides and ends.   

In the picture, you can see an old frame over the vat.  I planned to use it for lifting and lowering 8-10 boards at a time into and out of the vat.  Purchased a cheap chain hoist from Cabela's.  Hung it on the frame to try it out – hung up and quit before I got the first load off the ground!

Desperate to begin, I manually placed the boards in the vat one at a time (2x6x16).
Set them on small dowels to raise them up and to help prevent puncturing plastic.  Managed to get 8 or 9 at a time, but had to be VERY careful because of plastic.  NO WAY to describe how tedious this was, but again I was desperate to get some treated boards to begin construction with!

I let them soak for about an hour, then CAREFULLY raised them up to rest above the vat so the excess solution could drain off.  (Remember, this stuff is EXPENSIVE!!)  After another 30 minutes or so, I stacked and stickered them (under a roof) so they could cure for several days.  I placed some more plastic sheeting under the stack to catch any solution that might drip off as they cured (Remember, EXPENSIVE!)  (Only recovered about a cup, so probably wasn't worth the effort.)  Took me 2 weekends to treat about 77 boards!

During the next week, while these boards were curing, we put up the framing for the floor.  Had planned to use more of these Cedartreated 2x6's for this framing, but after all the time and effort we had already been through, and being behind on our construction schedule, we decided to just buy the green pressure treated stuff and work on the frame while the stuff we had already treated cured.

We started in the center of the floor, cut 4 boards to come together in a point.  We did this for appearance, and so we could use whole boards from center to outside, with no butt joints.  After the first 4 boards, we just filled in by cutting the angles on 2 boards at a time.
There were no problems in either cutting or nailing down the boards.  The sawdust did tend to stick more to the saw blades, and sometimes a drop or 2 of solution would ooze out as we drove in a nail.  But really, no different than cutting or nailing the green stuff.
When the floor was finished, I brushed on an oil based semi-transparent stain with UV protection (the one thing CedarTreat does not claim to protect from!)

Here are my conclusions on MY experience with CedarTreat:
Good Stuff -
1.   The boards had a very pleasing appearance after curing.  The color and grain were much more appealing to me than the green pressure treated woods.
2.   The treatment did SEEM to make the boards stronger and lighter (maybe just my imagination!)
3.   Cost (NOT including any consideration of time involved!) was just slightly cheaper than buying the green stuff.
4.   Remains to be seen how well the stuff will hold up in the weather.

BAD Stuff –
1.   HUGE amount of time and manual labor involved in the process.  Prepare the vat, load in the boards, pump in the solution, brush on solution to tops of boards when they floated, drain the boards, pump out the solution when finished.
2.   Boards absorbed about 3X as much solution as stated by CedarCide.  It took almost 30 gallons to treat roughly 1000 BF.  CedarCide charts state it should have taken around 8 gallons.  This is a huge difference, and really ruins the chance of a cost savings for me.
3.   Now, after several weeks of exposure to the sun's heat, the pitch in the boards has begun to leach out.  I was worried about this before I began, and now this is probably the worst part.  The appeal of the finish is greatly lessened by the white, sticky residue on a large part of the boards now.
4.   The boards have not shrunk at all, as far as I can tell.  BUT, I think they may swell some when they get wet!  Really haven't made any precise measurements, just my observations.



I wrote to Mr. Glassel a couple of weeks ago to ask about these problems, especially why it took so much more solution than it should have(according to their charts.)  I still haven't gotten a reply.  He has been so quick to respond to my questions previously, that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I'll resend my email this week.

I'm not ready to say all this effort and expense were wasted.  But I'm sure I won't be doing this on any kind of larger scale until my questions have been answered and a better, cheaper way of application has been developed.

I still have a few gallons of CedarTreat left, and I'll try a few more experiments with it later, probably on hardwood and not SYP!

I'm sure I left out lots of details, so feel free to ask and I'll try to fill in the blanks.  I'm anxious to hear if Nudgewood's results are any different than mine.  I sure hope so!

Here's some pics.  Check out the CedarCide album in my gallery for more:

Vat Construction




Finished Floor




Boards in Vat


Just been stacked and stickered after treating


Leaching pitch




Cut end of a board after several weeks under wet leaves.  Lots of mildew.

[TexasTimbers]

Does the Cedarcide claim to protect against mildew on the surface?

This is a great write-up FC. Thanks for taking the time to share it. Sory it did not turn out as you had hoped.  :(

[boardwalker]

PineKnot

Where did you get your solvent and how much did it cost per gal. I talked to Dave and he told me that the premixed stuff was very close in price to buying the solvent and consentrate and mixing it yourself.  What I found for a price on solvent was $5.05 per gal./ $278 for 55 gal. + 6 gal. consentrate at $480 = $758. That is a far cry from what he charges for 55 gal.  of premix. Not to make him sound bad because I liked the way he handeled himself and answered my questions, but if I decide that I like this stuff I think I will buy the consentrate. I have a 5 gal bucket of CedarTreat coming for a trailer deck that I cut for a friend and 5 gal of Turners choice coming to test on some turning blanks. Dave seams to be a really nice guy.

[FC_PineKnot]

Kevjay - on the website it specifically states it prevents "surface mold".  Would mildew be the same thing?

boardwalker - I think I pestered Dave so much with calls and emails that he finally sold me a drum of the premixed CedarTreat for about the same price as I could mix my own (Because he DOES seem like such a nice guy, I won't tell you the EXACT price he gave me  ;D ;D ;D)  I did find a company with an office in New Orleans that would deliver the solvent to me.  I'd have to find the notes and prices I made if you need that info.  Just let me know if you do.

Notice that there are 3 different solutions offered on the Website.  Dave suggested that the CedarTreat was best for what I needed.  He also said this was the only one with the "nanotechnology" that enabled the solution to displace ALL the water in a board.  He said it would be almost like the beginning stages of petrification.

On the website, CedarTreat is mentioned as a "color treatment" but Dave told me they were still having problems with the dye/color, I think because it was hard to keep it from leaching out of the board as it cured.  He offered me some dye to mix with the solution so I could see how it penetrated the wood, but said it was messy, so I decided not to try it.  Anyway, the solution I purchased had no coloration added to it.

I can only say good things about Dave's patience and helpfulness in answering all my questions and concerns.  I'm sure he had more important customers than me, but I never felt that way when talking to him.  Still, I'm not sure I got what I expected from the product itself.  Maybe my expectations weren't realistic?

Oh well, it's still a work in progress!

[beenthere]

FC
Yes, I think you can assume mildew and surface mold are essentially the same thing.

The photo you showed "just stacked and stickered", shows blue stain which is not surface mold/mildew such as shown in your pic of the cut-off that laid under the leaves.

[boardwalker]

PineKnot

The one question that I forgot to ask Dave was if the premix was the full strenght mix or if it was mixed at one of the lower ratios.

Craig

[Nudgewood]

Kevjay wrote:
"and nudgewood is AWOL."

So you think I'm awol hey? Is that "A Welly Odd Looser", or "Another Wuz Out Logging", or maybe "A Wanabe Outa Luck"? Hehe... I'll have to ask the Missus what other ones she can come up with. Or maybe not; my ego might not hold up!

I actually just returned from WVA last night (would still have been there if the weather was better) where we only have a cabin and so no internet. Anywho, here's what's going on in my bucket so far:

My little experiment is a bit different to that of Fc_PineKnot's in that I am primarily interested in whether or not this stuff is capable of protecting wood underground. I have a lot of pine (in VA) that I'm busy harvesting before it all dies and thin stuff and tops are just going to waste as selling it for pulp isn't worth my time. The idea is to treat that wood to market as grape trellises, fencing posts or poles for pole construction. Hence my preoccupation with what will happen underground. I also don't want to wait three to five years to see results so I have very thin stakes in a closed container sitting above my hot-water geyser, like an incubator.
So far, about half the sample stakes have some mould discoloration, which is discouraging, BUT, what's encouraging is that the untreated Control stakes have much more mold than the others (except for one of the CedarTreat stakes) and it's a different type of mould than that on the treated ones (treated stakes showing mould have gray blotches and a seperate, fuzzy, white growth, the control stakes have (much heavier) blueish-gray blotches and streaks that have turned a rusty yellow along the edges of the infection plus, where they enter the soil there's a wet, black area much like you see in rotting wood and on the underside of leaf litter, like compost.)

One problem I thought of is that it's getting no sunlight, so maybe I'll put a bulb in there sometime, or start another bucket going in the spring.

So... that's my spiel. Now you can "Attack WithOut Laughing".

%<

[beenthere]

Nudgewood
That is a pretty good controlled test. Similar to the USFS stake tests and soil block tests that are used to evalutate treatments.
I hope you have weights of each stake, as weight loss is a real good indicator of decay. Strength tests are another, along with the visuals that you are doing.
Good to hear you are back. 

[TexasTimbers]

Typically we don't attack each other here Nudgewood.
I have a twisted sense of humor that can rub folks the wrong way sometimes; a knack for being misinterpreted you might say.
I was making an observation that I had just discovered a great thread that seemed like it might go dormant.

Of course I should know by now good threads never die, they just sometimes take a little rest.
Thanks for sharing your test.

I Always Was Overtly Looney

[Nate Surveyor]

I'm intensely intrested in the outcome of your tests.

I have kids, and need to build a deck, that is NON TOXIC to children.

Nate

[beenthere]

Nate
I think ya got the wrong impression of what is toxic about treated deck wood.  I don't mean to say ya can't just believe what ya want, but the treatments are chemically bound up in the wood, and I don't think anyone could eat enough deck planking in a lifetime to notice any effects (but that's just from what I know and think).
It's the names of chemicals that provide the fear and the hype about being toxic. Not the practical side and the numerous tests that indicate no problem, but the media fear that wants to be extended to control our lives (and it works well for them, as the treating companies just opt to not fight it. So they turn to less effective treatments that have more friendly names of chemicals other than arsenic).
Think what ya want der. 

[Nate Surveyor]

Thanks Mr. Been There.

You are probably right.

OK, so it comes down to cost.

Is this stuff cost effective?

Well, from what I read above, maybe not.

I'd sure like to build a house complete. The only things bought being the plumbing, wiring, and a few light fixtures.

Mill and treat the deck, and the shingles too.

O well, just a fantasy.

Nate

[FC_PineKnot]

Hey Nudgewood and Boardwalker - how about an update on your Cedartreat usage?

Still no significant changes on my flooring so far - maybe a little shrinkage, but not very much.  It's been about 4 months now and it seems to be holding up well.  No splits, warping or cupping.  But that hot Mississippi summer sun hasn't gotten here yet!

[Nudgewood]

I recently moved my bucket-o-slime out into the sun. All the stakes are still firm although showing signs of mould. In fact the mould is eating away the masking tape tags so I've had to color code them with paint. As I'm really only interested in how well they hold up below ground it'll be a while still before I have quantifyable results; even if all the untreated stakes rot off I will still need to continue with the treated ones to see how much longer they last. Don't fret, you'll hear from me whenever there's something to report.

I have also put some old 1 X 3/4 pine stickers, treated and untreated, in the ground as tomato stakes about a week ago.

%<

[Radar67]

How are the experiments coming?

Stew

[twobears]

i thought i,de bring this to the top.

delbert