Has anyone heard of this stuff.......?

[FC_PineKnot]

I've got about 2500 BF of green and air-dried SYP lumber that I want to use to build a fence and a large gazebo.  I can take the lumber to a place about 90 miles away that will pressure treat the dried boards for about $200 / MBF.  So after the green stuff dries, I can get this done for about $500 + my time and gasoline.

While looking for other options, I came across this website: http://www.cedarcide.com/wood.asp
The product listed as CedarTreat claims to penetrate green or dry wood of all species to scavenge the water, turn it to alcohol and purge it from the wood.  Among other things, it claims to completely solve the problem of future water damage while doing away with the need for kiln drying.  And the cost could be less than ½ of what the pressure treatment would be.  I can't list all the claims here, so check out this website before you get to my questions below.

I called Mr. Glassel of Cedarcide and spoke to him about his products and how they worked.  He was extremely patient in answering all my questions and very forthcoming with information.  It was so amazing that I was immediately skeptical!  So I began to search the Forum and the Internet for some references to this product.  I could find no mention of it on the Forum, and very few references on the Internet.  I did find a woodworking forum with comments on some trial uses in making wooden bowls.  I also found some info on using Nanotechnology on wood products from a Canadian news article.  I found no bad comments on the product, but I also didn't find any raving reviews like I would have expected from a product that does what this company claims.

In the course of our conversation, Mr. Glassel mentioned that he worked with Mississippi State University on developing the product.  So I called a professor there (got his name from the MSU School of Forestry website) and asked about Mr. Glassel and his product.  He did recognize Mr. Glassel's name, but was NOT very forthcoming with info (maybe because of patents, liability, etc. – I don't really know).  He did admit that MSU provided input to the development of the product, but that MSU did NOT perform any research or testing of the product itself.

I'm in no way trying to endorse OR slam this product – all I know about it is what I've been told in these conversations and emails with Mr. Glassel.  I'm not trying to promote it or sell it – I want to use it for myself!  What I want to know is, has anyone here actually seen, heard of or used this product, and if so, does it REALLY work? 

I always think of the old saying "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!"  But if this is for real, can you imagine the possibilities for its use in our profession?

Please let us know what you've heard or seen about this stuff.

[Tom]

It looks like you are setting yourself up to be the Forum testor for this stuff.  You're right.  If it is so good, It is either on the market for only a day or the man is a poor marketeer.  Keep in mind "snake oil".  It could be that he will have a path beat to his door, but silent sales don't speak very loudly.

I think it worth trying.  Just think of the real time it will take to prove the product.  Most treated woods are guarunteed for, somewhere in the neighborhood of, 30 years.  You might have to wait on your fence.  :D

[getoverit]

This really looks interesting...

the only part of the whole web page that I dont understand is that they say it will provide a "construction window" of up to 90 days...

Later in their hype it says it prevents everything  from decay to termites.

I see where they are willing to do a demo on their product. This might be a good way to get a sample of it to try out.

I also wondewr how much it is.... they never do say...

[Woodwalker]

Don't know anything about this product, but they (CedarCide) have been around a few years and they have been marketing several cedar based pest control products. Mulch, shavings, liquid. There was a set-up about 30 miles from here, where they were chipping the cedar.  Guess they moved their operation, last time I passed there the site was closed.

[etat]

It seems to me that they must be really smart, especially with the way that they use words like........

the closing and drying of the Hydrogen tails of the Hydroxyl Molecular group found in wood media

. 
 Heck they even sell a mosquito fogger to put the stuff in to kill mosquito's!     :P :P :P

[woodbowl]

I'm wondering if this is another product that is using sodium silicate in a form simular to "Timbersil". http://www.timbersil.com/ because it states the use of silicon and also mentions a glue like property.

To me it sounds like a liquid glass type product, (sodium silicate) the active ingredient in head gasket repair products. When added to the radiator, it makes it's way to a leaky area such as a hole in the radiator, heater core and even high pressure areas such as a blowen head gasket. It seals cracked blocks as well and holds up well as long as the engine does not run hot, opening up the crack again. It is availible at the drug store in a pure form and also used as a glue to paste card board boxes together.

Could it be that liquid glass, when formulated to penetrate wood by thinning, mixing with oil or other liquids, travels into the wood and solidifies, resulting in a sealed inpenetrable board?

There is another product that Sherwin Williams sells that stiffins weak and rotten wood to render it useful again. The name slips my mind at the moment, but I know at least one person that is a believer and uses it. This too sounds like a liquid glass product.

Since all this is new and I haven't heard much feedback from proven results, I am cautious but slill very optimistic about it. I'm already thinking about how to mix my own homemade treatment and how to apply it.

[FC_PineKnot]

Tom – very funny!!!!!!!!   :D  Maybe that's why the stuff is not well known – it takes years to find out if it really works!  I'm thinking about using it for everything ABOVE ground, so if it does fail, I won't have to dig up any posts with concrete around them!

There are several charts and descriptions on the website, but you have to dig around for some of them.  From my conversations with Mr. Glassel and what I can decipher from the web info, here's how my feeble mind thinks it is supposed to work: 

The proprietary mixture called CedarTreat contains the cedar oils (for fungicide and insect treatment) and a Dow Corning "small molecule" (nano-technology??) (with the silicons).  This is mixed in varying ratios with a readily available solvent like Calumet 142.  Supposedly the solvent "carries" the mixture through the wood fiber cells causing the H2O to be converted to alcohol, which then flashes off through the board (there's pictures of something foaming out of the treated boards as they cure.)  After the curing process – 72 hours or more – the silicon seals in the cedar oils and creates a barrier to any other liquid penetration.  This may not be exactly correct because I recently lost my rocket scientist license to practice chemistry.  : :P ;)

There are 3 different products, but the CedarTreat is the only one with the nanotechnology.  The varying treatment rates seem to be degrees of coverage for cost savings.  However, the differences in cost between the full treatment and the "180 day construction window" (which means treat it, stack it outdoors and build with it in 180 days or less) is so slight, it doesn't seem worth the risk to the lumber. 

What really intrigues me is that I could saw green lumber, immediately treat it with this stuff, then use it to build indoors or out in just a few days without using a kiln for drying.

If you buy the stuff premixed in a small quantity, it's pretty expensive - $200 / 5 gallons.  But a 55 gallon drum of the solvent and 3 gallons of the concentrate will treat everything I need and then some, at a cost cheaper than the pressure treatment process located 90 miles from me.  If it does perform miracles, then I can buy more of the concentrate to make another batch.

I'm leaning toward doing it just to see how well the stuff works.  If I do, I promise to post pictures and follow-ups on it – as long as everyone promises not to horse laugh me here if I get duped!   

[Don P]

A mason on one job described a science fair project he had done in grade school, for his age I would guess in the '50's. He had used formaldehyde as the solvent and sodium silicate to "petrify" wood. He said it worked great and seemed to stop shrinkage. I'm curious enough to watch  ;D.

[PineNut]

This looks too good to be true. Their web site seems to say cedar is good for what ails you (snake oil.)  They give several charts of treatment information but I can't seem to find anything about how well their product performs.

I would like to have a treatment setup that could use this type of chemical and procedures but for now I will stay with my borate treatment.

[beenthere]

So it is the CedarTreat that you are interested in trying.
I hope you try it, and also hope that you have a set of boards (or whatever you are applying it to) as a test set with no treatment, but all other things equal.  I'm not sure why, if it is so great, that the seller Mr Glassel, doesn't have such test results in his advertising. Maybe you can be his 'proof' that it either works as claimed or doesn't work as claimed.

It would be interesting to hear from others who have purchased this product, and evaluated its results, and who have then expanded their purchases to larger quantities based on the success of its application. If it works as claimed, then his business will (or should) be booming.

I hope it is real successful for you and am anxious to hear about the results. No horse laughs from here if it doesn't, I promise.  ;)

[getoverit]

I'm interested in the results too! I'm a beliver that there must be a less expensive way to preserve wood from the elements and insects than the current pressure treating method.

If this works, then I can truthfully say that I will soon be a customer. There is an abundance of free pine logs down here, and if I could sell a "green" treated product I'm sure it would sell great here and give me another revenue stream.

PLEASE keep us informed???

[LeeB]

I'm curious what the silicon does to blades. LeeB

[woodbowl]

I'm curious what the silicon does to blades. LeeB

I've heard that cedar has a lot of silica in the wood. I don't really know, but I do know it dulls my band blades a lot sooner.

[FC_PineKnot]

Well, since no one seems to have heard of this stuff besides me, I bit the bullet today and ordered enough to treat all my lumber, with some left over to experiment with.  I'll take lots of pictures and notes on how well the CedarTreat works.  If anyone has suggestions as to the best ways to treat and test various types of lumber, species of wood, etc, so I can make accurate conclusions, please feel free to offer them!

It will probably be a couple of weeks before I'm ready to start.  I have to construct some type of vessel to hold the solution and the lumber for treatment.  I'm leaning towards a vat/tub that will hold a dozen or so 2x6x16 boards (edged upwards) with a cover on it that has pvc piping with multiple spray nozzles.  By using a small pump to recirculate and spray the solution, I hope to minimize the total quantity of mixture needed as compared to filling up the vat with enough solution to cover all the boards.

I have to say that Mr. Glassel has been very patient to answer all my questions.  And he has been very consistent with his answers, which says a lot to me!  I've also talked to him personally and he has been very cordial.  He has assured me I won't be disappointed with the results.  So, time will tell.

LeeB  & Woodbowl– I did ask him about the effect CedarTreated lumber had on circular saw blades.  He says the solution doesn't actually contain silicon, but instead has Silanes.  I'm sure this is still some derivative of silica, but maybe not as abrasive (?).  Anyhow, he says the cedar oil in the treated lumber is a very good lubricant, therefore making sawing easier.  I'll know as soon as my first board cures, and I'll keep everyone posted.

Ctate – if this stuff works, I WILL be ordering some of that cedar oil mosquito spray to keep down these West Nile mosquitos around here!!!!!!!!!


: : : :

[Don P]

Hold the phone,
Silanes/siloxanes are great waterproofers for masonry. One of our members told me about them for some old masonry restoration we had going on, seems to work great. My only thought is that it was supposed to be bonding to the silica in the masonry (I think).
Well, you've really got my curiousity up, we even said we wished there was something like that for wood, that would penetrate, lock in, and waterproof from within.
Please keep us informed, throw my chunk in some good rich, damp, black, leafmoldy, hedgerow dirt  ;D.

[getoverit]

I also would like to see a piece of this stuff set into the ground like a fence post, in some somewhat moist ground and some of it left sticking up above the ground.
If it was in a place where mold is an issue ( as in the shade), so much for the better.

also a piece of it left in open sunlight as though it was a piece of decking material.
I'm really interested in this as it may be a market for "green" treated lumber that would satisfy those that are scared of chemically treated lumber such as CCA and creosote. 

Is there any information on the toxicity of this product? Is it safe for use around farm animals such as horses and cows?

[Stephen1]

Interesting how this all goes down.The coments from everyone, the interest it generates, Sure glad someone took the big step and bought some. What does it do the colouring of the wood?
Is there any UV protection?which is the biggest killer of all.

[beenthere]

FC_pineknot
Touch base with MSU again and ask them about a good experiment, as I'd think a set of non-treated boards to sit alongside the treated ones would give the best information. Adding variables than one only confuses any comparisons of the end results.

[DanG]

FC_pineknot, I'm interested in learning the results of your project, too.

One thing I noticed in an earlier post, you mentioned putting your posts in concrete.  My understanding is that you shouldn't do that.  It is much better to backfill the hole with gravel, so the water can drain away from the post.  If you need the vertical support, put the concrete in the bottom of the hole, top that with some gravel, put in the post and backfill with gravel. ;)

[FC_PineKnot]

One thing I noticed in an earlier post, you mentioned putting your posts in concrete. My understanding is that you shouldn't do that. It is much better to backfill the hole with gravel, so the water can drain away from the post. If you need the vertical support, put the concrete in the bottom of the hole, top that with some gravel, put in the post and backfill with gravel. ;)

DanG - the DIY book I bought at the box store said "put 3 inches of gravel in bottom of hole, then set post.  Add 2 more inches of gravel around post, then pour concrete around post, sloping it at the top to drain away water."  It sounds like a lot of work to me!  So I'll try it your way without the concrete bottom.  I'm sure this old hard red clay will be enough vertical support!  I guess the main thing is good drainage away from the post.

I've been deciding on building a vat  vs.  some type of sprayer system to apply the preservative solution.  I think it will be a lot easier (and cheaper), just a little slower (less boards at a time.)

I hope the CedarTreat will be here next week.  Maybe I can have everything ready by then and start treating a few boards for testing.  I plan to cut some 4x4 posts this weekend for the fence.

I'll keep you posted.

[mur]

DanG makes a point that my Electrical Inspector and BC Hydro folks used to make.  When you dug an underground trench up to BC Hydro's post (CCA treated?? - green treated pine) they made you put heavy plastic sheeting between the pole and the concrete to "set" the underground conduit - sort of a "thrust block" affair.  They maintained the concrete and the wood "reacted" and weakened the wood if the plastic barrier wasn't there. 

[FC_PineKnot]

Well, I guess everyone thinks I bailed out on the CedarTreat preservative, but I didn't!  Just been real busy.

I received the 50 gallon barrel a few weeks ago.  Since then, I've decided to build a vat to soak the lumber in.  I'm building it from sheet metal and will secure it in a wooden frame for support.  We started cutting the frame out today.  I'm supposed to meet a neighbor with a metal brake first thing in the morning to bend the sheet metal pieces for the vat.  I hope to have some pics to post tomorrow night, but I noticed the photo gallery is "under construction".  Does that mean I won't be able to post the pics?

I put some of the CedarTreat in a 5 gallon bucket today to treat the ends of the 2x4's I'll be using for feet on the frame.  The stuff is almost clear, with a distinct cedar smell.  I was amazed at how fast the stuff penetrated the wood.  The 2x4's had been air drying for several months, and still the stuff penetrated to a level several inches above the liquid level in the bucket.  You could almost see the stuff moving up the board!  And there was a definite reaction with small bubbles foaming out from the boards.  I left one 3 foot 2x6 piece in the bucket tonight.  I'll cut it up in increments tomorrow to see how well the preservative penetrated.

Hope to be able to post more results and some pics tomorrow night.

[beenthere]

Glad to hear about your progress. Hope you know for sure that the sheet metal being used for your vat will not react with the treatment. Sometimes their is a reaction that will cause the solution to turn black. Just a 'heads-up' as I don't have any information, just past experience with other wood treatments. Either stainless steel or plastic vats were needed. Sometimes a fiberglass lining in a plywood vat or just a plastic like Visqueen was used to keep the solution away from metal.  Try a steel nail in some solution and see what happens for a test.

What color is the preservative? 

Yup about the gallery. We all miss it and am sure da Boss is working very hard to fix it. Hope he is doing ok with it.  :

[getoverit]

I'm still *VERY* interested in this stuff and am waiting on results from some of your tests to see if I want to spend the cash on it. I sure hope it works out for you so I can finally find a use for all of this pine I have mounded up around here ;)

[FC_PineKnot]

Well, I got the metal bent, and the frame constructed yesterday.  Got some pics - will post them when the gallery is fixed.  Still have to assemble the metal for the vat, and attach it to the frame.  Got to put the ends on and then seal them and the center joint.  I'm making the vat 17 feet long, but I used 2 ten foot pieces of metal so I can extend it if necessary (probably won't, but you never know!)  Hard to explain all the details of construction(typing!) - the pics will do a better job of explaining.

beenthere - I asked Mr. Glassel about the solution reacting with the galvanized metal before I purchased it and he said there should be no problem.  But I did place a piece of the galvanized metal and a couple of galvanized nails in a small amount of the solution, and there was no visible reaction with either.  Oh, and the solution is clear, almost colorless, just a slight brownish tint.

I treated the 2x4's for the frame legs Friday.  I was amazed at how quickly the stuff penetrated and traveled up the part of the boards that were above the fluid level.  I also treated a few scrap pieces and cut them up Saturday to see how deep the penetration was.  Looks like it was all the way through.  Supposed to let them cure for at least 72 hours, so maybe tomorrow I'll slice up a few more and see what it looks like.

In all honesty, I guess the only way to know it works is to treat my posts and boards, build the fence and gazebo, stain it or paint it (for UV protection), and then wait to see how well it holds up to the elements!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, how could I ever convince someone else to pay me to treat their lumber if I won't use it on my own!!   ;D  And, if it doesn't work as advertised, I can at least keep someone else from wasting their money!   :-[ :-[ :-[