What does steam mean?

[Digger Don]

The other day, I was getting almost as much steam, as sawdust out of the discharge chute. It was a rather large red oak. Obviously (I think), it's from the moisture in the wood. I measured some of the boards and they were in the 15-20% range. Is the steam normal, or does it mean something that I ought to know? Dull blade? Poor setting of the teeth? Something else? Thanks. Don

[GAB]

DD:
How cold was it in your sawing environment?
Did you per chance check the temperature of your blade exiting the log?
GAB

[Sixacresand]

Usually when I see steam, the blade probably should have be changed several cuts before.  

[Digger Don]

It was a cold morning, no doubt about that. Upper 20s, maybe? I did not check the blade temp, but guessed it had to be pretty warm. If it was turning moisture to steam, how could it not be? Am I missing something?

[moodnacreek]

I presume you are sawing with a mini band saw and there would be no board splitter so the saw can rub the wood.  On a freezing morning and unfrozen logs all kind of things happen most of them not bad. If you could saw straight lines I would think things where fine.

[Magicman]

I see this if there is a quick turnaround of air temperature.  If the air is much colder than the warmer moist sawdust, it's sorta like blowing your breath on a cold morning.

It's not unusual at all under the right temperature conditions.

[Don P]

Exactly, you were probably playing right around the dew point in that moment.

[Digger Don]

Moodnacreek - I'm not sure what you mean by a mini band saw. It's a Timberking B20. Is that a mini?

Magicman and Don P - I was hoping it was something like that. However, since I'm trying to sharpen my own blades, I figured it was a sign of something I did wrong. Thanks for the optimistic answers!
Don

[SawyerTed]

Last Wednesday was a cold morning here, in the upper 20s.  The logs were dead white oaks and had laid in the weather for a few weeks.  The logs had plenty of moisture in them.  Had steam with a new blade until the air temperature got up near 40 ish.

[Southside]

Moodnacreek - I'm not sure what you mean by a mini band saw. It's a Timberking B20. Is that a mini?

To Moodnacreek any bandsaw that runs a band under 12" wide is a mini...  

[YellowHammer]

Steam can be no problem, but is also an indicator of a possible band, alignment or sawing problem, most times either accompanied by excessive sawdust spillage in the kerf, or cutting slight waves, any reason for the body of the band causing friction and localized heating.  Look for packed sawdust, waves in the kerf, anything that would cause friction, or causes a higher load than normal on the engine due to sharpness or other absorbed horsepower reasons.  That HP is going to go somewhere, and usually manifests itself as steam.

I did a video on this very subject where I could take two different new bands, one "good" the other "not good" and the immediate indicator of reduced cut quality and performance was steam out of the cut, which I managed to catch on camera. 

Unusual and noticeable steam is an indicator, certainly only maybe of dew point, but maybe of more, and certainly warrants closer inspection. 

[Digger Don]

As a rule, there is quite a bit of sawdust left on the boards. From what I've read here, that might be a set problem. The mill's owner doesn't agree. Besides, neither one of us have figured out how to use the setter. 

[customsawyer]

Lots of things can contribute to sawdust on the boards. Sawing to slow is one of them.

[ladylake]

As a rule, there is quite a bit of sawdust left on the boards. From what I've read here, that might be a set problem. The mill's owner doesn't agree. Besides, neither one of us have figured out how to use the setter.

 More set   more sawdust

 less set less sawdust  Steve

[YellowHammer]

Yes, all things being equal and good, there should be very little sawdust on the boards, a scattering or light layer, at best.  Packed four like is very bad, and drives the band, and so is pitch buildup, bite of which really heat up the band.

Sawing slow is a main contributor, but most times people saw slow is because if they speed up they get waves, although some just prefer to ease along.  However sawing fast and clean lets the moisture in the wood help cool the band, so the faster you saw the cooler the band stays.  Set is also a contributor of sawdust, and sometimes more set helps, sometimes more set spills sawdust and keeps if from being ejected, but you'll generally be able to gauge proper set by speed.  Faster and straighter sawing is best. Sometimes even new bands are not good out of the box, use a set checker tool to  confirm the band is up to snuff.  The video below discusses these things, and it should be noted that it was shot with 2 brand new bands, both straight out of the box.  Steam at 7:38 in the video.

https://youtu.be/RpzucyxlTYc
 

[Magicman]

It was a cold morning, no doubt about that.

In this instance, I doubt that the phenomenon that Don described had anything to do with the blade.  It was simply a cloud of condensation that occurred when the warmer moist sawdust hit the cold air.  I have seen it happen many times on a cold morning and as the temperature warms up, it quits.

I very well remember this cold November morning with the temperature in the 20°'s.  It was already foggy and when I started sawing I had my very own fog making machine.

[Chuck White]

I used to see steam exiting the sawdust chute, mostly in the Spring and Fall seasons.

Whenever I saw steam, there were usually ice crystals on the lumber, so I do believe that the steam is caused by the warm blade cutting through the frosty cant!

It's normal if you're sawing in cooler temperatures!

[Digger Don]

My ignorance is about to show itself, again. I suspect I might be sawing too slow, but if I go much faster, the engine stalls. Under no load the engine runs about 3,600 RPM. I try not to let it go much below 3,300, which means going slower. Me thinks me poor sharpening skills are showing through.    But, if that's the case MM might be mistaken. What a conundrum.

YH, if you'd consider moving to New Market, VA, I could pester the heck out of you! 

[moodnacreek]

Moodnacreek - I'm not sure what you mean by a mini band saw. It's a Timberking B20. Is that a mini?

To Moodnacreek any bandsaw that runs a band under 12" wide is a mini... 

Make that 2". In New York the D.E.C. lists bandsaw, circle and mini bandsaw.  Southside, how's that robotic milker going?

[Digger Don]

I guess it is a mini, then. 

At first, I didn't appreciate your comment. Then, I realized my 8,000 LB. excavator is considered a mini. I wasn't aware of how big a band mill could be. So, no offense taken. Thanks to all for your comments. Don

[Magicman]

This one may not be a Mini. 

[doc henderson]

It is probably just a very small hand!  

[Digger Don]

Good grief! How many logs can that thing cut at one time?! Maybe a giant sequoia?

[SawyerTed]

@Digger Don 

Check out this twin band mill.  It uses bands similar to Magicman's post.

https://youtu.be/kmNV68PJfhk?si=lAMFAbci_cVTbXNM

[Magicman]

My blade picture above was taken in Terrace, BC, Canada.  The sawmill shares the same location with FF member Percy.

[YellowHammer]

So you are sharpening the bands but not setting?

[Digger Don]

Guilty as charged. Let's just say I'm trying to sharpen. That may be part of the problem!   Or, the whole problem. I'm amazed at how fast you saw in the video. Can you go that fast in an oak log?

[customsawyer]

A 10X magnifier is your friend when you first start sharpening. Make sure you are getting a good grind all the way to the corners. Especially on your set teeth.

[Digger Don]

You mean my bifocals aren't good enough?!    I can get the magnifier, but I'm not sure I'll know what good looks like, if I see it.

[SawyerTed]

You need one of these to check set. 

[YellowHammer]

Yes, red oak saws very fast and easy, I smile everytime I put one on the mill.  Proper set is crucial to band performance.  What kind of setter are you using?  I bet there are lots of folks on here who may have it and maybe help you out get it dialed in.   

I had a couple guys drive from several states away to Alabama a couple weeks ago who had their own lumber and sawmill business and wanted to talk about mine and the subject of speed came up.  They had an LT70, just like mine, maybe newer.  Anyway, I had just sawn some boards and I pointed to the teeth marks and showed that that I was moving about 4 inches per band rotation.  They were shocked, they looked at each other and said they maybe got one inch of advance per band rev, sawing small diameter logs in soft softwood, such as cherry and walnut.  I mentioned they should be pushing easy 3 to 4 inches per rev in those!

By the way, looking at advance per rev is a very good way to "grade" and evaluate both my bands, my mill, and me.  I discuss it in several videos, but you also know when you are sawing dead on when you hear the very clear sound of the band, I have been told it is an E flat, and once heard is never forgotten.  It only happens when the band is right, sawing fast and flat.  It's music that I always try to push the mill to generate.

On another note, (pun intended) last year at Jakes Project, Customsawyer, I had a couple guys come up as he was sawing and they were asking about the note of the band I keep talking about in my videos.  I said watch Jake a second and you will hear him hone in on it, and sure enough, the very next cut in that 40 foot long cypress, he hit and maintained "tune" for most of the cut, and the sound was ringing clear as a bell from 30 feet away, and one of the guys exclaimed "I HEAR IT!"   

[moodnacreek]

I guess it is a mini, then.

At first, I didn't appreciate your comment. Then, I realized my 8,000 LB. excavator is considered a mini. I wasn't aware of how big a band mill could be. So, no offense taken. Thanks to all for your comments. Don

I think there are band saws 12" wide and even larger and with teeth on both edges [double cutters]. My excavator is 4000 lbs. and very handy.  There are members here with 'swing' sawmills that use small circle saws. Some of the Amish mills have carriage mills [like circle mills have] with a 2 " to 4" fixed vertical bandsaw.  Doug

[Digger Don]

Red oak saws fast and easy?! Boy, we are definitely doing something wrong! We were sawing it today and going about as slow as possible. I doubt that we were getting one inch per rotation. If we went any faster, it drug the engine way down. I suspect the fact that the cant was 16 X 18 may have had something to do with that. It was leaving a LOT of sawdust on the boards, too. At one point, I checked the blade after it came out of a big cut. It was a little warm to the touch, but not hot. 

I'm not certain what the setter is, but I think it's something from Timberking. It came with the mill when we bought it. I'm not sure if it does three teeth at a time, or just two. We messed with it once or twice and gave up. I think it's time we take the time to figure it out.

I love the videos, but I have a pretty low data limit, so I can't watch nearly as many as I'd like. I'm hoping we get better internet in the next year, or so.

Pardon my ignorance, again, but if our mini can cut a 2 1/2 foot log, what size can a 12" band cut? I would think trees of that size are pretty rare. Or, do they just cut the log a LOT faster?

I suspect the note is something that if I ever heard it, I didn't know what it meant. I certainly wouldn't know an E flat if you hit me with it. Don 

[beenthere]

Google "play an E flat" and you will hear it. 

 
E flat sound

[Machinebuilder]

Digger Dan 

AS far as the speed that Yellowhammer saws at, remember he has a 55hp diesel engine.

He will be able to saw much faster than you can or I can with my 19hp gas engine.

I agree red oak is fairly easy to saw. Because I tend to have pretty big logs I can not saw fast enough to clear the sawdust.

I have learned that if I add a glug of dawn to the water tank and keep the drip very slow it helps and I can mostly dump the sawdust off as I remove the board.

I try to control my cutting speed to keep the engine RPM above 3300RPM, I adjusted things so the engine is always WOT when engaged.

I enjoy watching different sawmilling videos and have learned much from many of them. I just have to also realize there are some techniques that don't apply well to a fully manual hobby mill.
For example I don't try to use the reverse roll quarter saw because its too much effort for me with a cant hook and manual clamps.

I was just thinking about chip load, IE how mach each tooth is removeing, at 4" per rev the chip is 4x bigger than at 1" per rev.
This is where YH talks about corn meal consistancy sawdust where mostly I see flour consistancy.
It also will take 4x the power to make the cut. (disclaimer very rough estimate)

[Magicman]

I have a 38hp Diesel.  I saw as fast as the engine can handle without reducing the speed and it does not approach YellowHammer's sawing speed.  Maybe half but honestly I know that the engine is doing all that it can do so I seldom look.  I know for certain that my sawing speed reduced when I had to go back to a non-turbo engine in November. 

[Digger Don]

It makes a lot of sense that the bigger engine will cut faster. We have a 25HP Kohler, which I'd say is less than half of what YH has. We keep it at WOT when sawing and try to maintain at least 3,300 RPMs, too. Is there a rule of thumb concerning how much the engine should be allowed to slow? I'm thinking about 10%, but that is just my uneducated guess.

We used to used water and liquid soap, but have changed to using diesel. It seems to keep the blade cleaner and doesn't freeze like water.

We've never tried to quarter saw anything. Whatever comes out quarter sawn from our regular sawing is what we get.

MM - I don't remember the actual number you mentioned as to what you can saw in an hour. But, I do recall being amazed by it. When I'm by myself, I'm happy if I can get 150 bd. ft. That rarely happens. The turbo diesel might be a big part of that.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Yes, red oak saws very fast and easy, I smile everytime I put one on the mill.  Proper set is crucial to band performance.  What kind of setter are you using?  I bet there are lots of folks on here who may have it and maybe help you out get it dialed in.   

I had a couple guys drive from several states away to Alabama a couple weeks ago who had their own lumber and sawmill business and wanted to talk about mine and the subject of speed came up.  They had an LT70, just like mine, maybe newer.  Anyway, I had just sawn some boards and I pointed to the teeth marks and showed that that I was moving about 4 inches per band rotation.  They were shocked, they looked at each other and said they maybe got one inch of advance per band rev, sawing small diameter logs in soft softwood, such as cherry and walnut.  I mentioned they should be pushing easy 3 to 4 inches per rev in those!

By the way, looking at advance per rev is a very good way to "grade" and evaluate both my bands, my mill, and me.  I discuss it in several videos, but you also know when you are sawing dead on when you hear the very clear sound of the band, I have been told it is an E flat, and once heard is never forgotten.  It only happens when the band is right, sawing fast and flat.  It's music that I always try to push the mill to generate.

On another note, (pun intended) last year at Jakes Project, Customsawyer, I had a couple guys come up as he was sawing and they were asking about the note of the band I keep talking about in my videos.  I said watch Jake a second and you will hear him hone in on it, and sure enough, the very next cut in that 40 foot long cypress, he hit and maintained "tune" for most of the cut, and the sound was ringing clear as a bell from 30 feet away, and one of the guys exclaimed "I HEAR IT!" 

Got a pic of the cant on what that 4" per rev looks like? 

[GAB]

Question and comment:
Mr. Milton I believe that you have a wide head saw.  How long is your blade?  A ratio of one's blade length versus his times 4" would be what your equivalent to his 4" would be in my estimation.  That is if I'm not all wet as I have been known to be in err more than once.

A few year back at Bruno's I was sawing with another FF member's LT40 with the Kohler engine and I learned real quick that I could not go as fast with it as I can with my LT40HDD34.  That gas engine just did not have the torque that my diesel has.
GAB

[Machinebuilder]

I think the answer for what RPM is Just above the torque peak of the engine.

That way when it starts to slow down the torque will increase and the RP will not drop as much

[Magicman]

MM - I don't remember the actual number you mentioned as to what you can saw in an hour. But, I do recall being amazed by it. When I'm by myself, I'm happy if I can get 150 bd. ft. That rarely happens. The turbo diesel might be a big part of that.

I have no idea because productivity is not one of my goals.  My only goal is to saw quality lumber for my customers and meet their cut lists. 

[Digger Don]

I think the answer for what RPM is Just above the torque peak of the engine.

That way when it starts to slow down the torque will increase and the RP will not drop as much

I don't know what RPM that would be. But, the engine on the mill is very similar to the engine on my track loader. The torque peak on it is 2,400. At 3,300 RPM, it's just under 38 FT-LBS. At 2,400 RPM, it's just under 40 FT-LBS. Is the two extra FT-LBS worth letting the blade slow that much?  

[doc henderson]

you want to get their and not go under.  that is getting all the power out of that engine.  most have a graph you can look up.

[Digger Don]

I understand that 2,400 is the torque peak, but won't that slow the blade too much? I'm thinking (right or wrong, I don't know) that keeping the blade speed up would be more important than those last two FT-LBS.

[doc henderson]

there is a relationship between RPMs and HP, and HP and torque.  look at graphs all you want, but you may just have to push when all things are right to see the limit.  I did that.  I will occ. push with a dull blade and that does not work.  you have you watch the sawdust and listen to the blade and motor.  push a little at a time and see how it goes.  If rpms drop a bit and torque goes up, it should keep things form going slower.  keep pushing and rpm and torque drops and you are done.

[Ben Cut-wright]

Question and comment:
Mr. Milton I believe that you have a wide head saw.  How long is your blade?  A ratio of one's blade length versus his times 4" would be what your equivalent to his 4" would be in my estimation.  That is if I'm not all wet as I have been known to be in err more than once.

Correct, the surface speeds of both lengths is the same but the length traveled is farther. 

[Ben Cut-wright]

I understand that 2,400 is the torque peak, but won't that slow the blade too much? I'm thinking (right or wrong, I don't know) that keeping the blade speed up would be more important than those last two FT-LBS.

Your question is often asked and (I think) you are correct in your thinking.  RPM (and) torque results in HP.  In other words, horsepower is work done over time. I find NO information instructing operation of the band saw mill in the "peak torque" range.  What I have repeatedly found is a specification for "surface speed".  3,000 to 3,600 is normal max RPM for these small gas engines. If the engine RPM is reduced to a peak torque of 2.400 RPM's  blade *speed will be significantly reduced. 


Saw blades running out of the cut don't require max governor operation.  I adjust travel until the governor has the throttle at wide open *during cutting but RPM's only drop slightly. There are other factors/indicators one must take into consideration but governor throttle control is a major one for me.  A tachometer can monitor when the governor has the throttle at max.  Eventually most sawyers can 'hear' and feel correct load on the engine. 

[Digger Don]

Doc, Our problem is that we haven't been around well running mills enough to know what that sounds like. So, until that time comes, I'm going to keep it WOT and the RPMS, while sawing, no lower than 10% below the unloaded speed. That's around 3,400.

Ben, we do have a tach so keeping the speed up isn't too hard. One thing I wish our mill had was a different throttle control. It runs wide open, or wherever we set it, whether it's cutting or not. No slowing between cuts. 

[doc henderson]

DD, my 2000 has a dc solenoid on the throttle.  It has a momentary on off on switch to reverse polarity for the dc part.  up and down throttle.

[YellowHammer]

Most of my videos will show me cutting in the 3" to 4" advance range, unless the log gets big or hard, then I have to slow down.  Here are a couple photos I took today, between 3 and 4 inches of advance per band rev on some wood I had sawn previously.  I have the LT70 wide, 55 hp diesel and have a few teeth out on the band I was sawing the red oak, which has since been kiln dried and hit or miss planed.  Ugly band but good for showing advance using poorly set teeth.   

Red oak, 3.125" of band advance per rev.
Red oak, about 3.5" band advance per rev

Pic 3 is really cool, a detailed close up tells a good story's and shows how much I change advance during the cut, and also why faster is better.  This cut was with a good band, very few offset teeth.

There is a tooth mark about an inch in front of the tip of the tape measure, where I slowed down for the ugly knot, so I had decreased to 1 inch per rev, then at the tip of the tape, I was about through the knot, so started accelerating my feed, and on  the very next cycle, was up to what looks like almost 1.75" advance per rev, which means I was starting to increase feed rate quickly.  Then after that, I put the hammer down, and really increased feed speed and the teeth marks pretty much disappeared, or at least shallowed out where I can't discern them anymore.  I would guess with my eye I was thinking it was back to to over 3" per advance, but I can't pick it up in the photo.  However, the cool thing is that it shows as advance increases, the cut quality also goes up.

Pic 4 is one I have on my latest video, and shows how little sawdust I have left on my boards, virtually sawdust free.  With the teeth on this band, I can't tell what the advance it, but its pretty fast.

I think the key on all this is that it doesn't matter quantitatively how fast you saw, it matters that you are sawing as fast as possible, balancing the band performance, the hp of the mill, the species, all that stuff plus more to get flat cuts and nearly sawdust free boards.

By the way, when sawing fast, there reaches a point where you can actually hear the advance is faster than the band can cut, especially in smaller cants and logs.  The cut isn't lugging the mill, but you can hear and even feel that the band has reached cutting capacity, the sound changes to a dull sound, and the feel of the mill gets "hard" for lack a more descriptive term.  I call it "stuffing the band" although there may be another name for it, it just can't eat faster, like the gullet is full and literally can't carry anymore.  It's a very distinctive feel and sound.

Anyway, you guys may think I'm off base, but I just call it the way I see it.  Also, there are guys on the Forum who can cut a board in a higher gear than I can, I've seen it.       

[Digger Don]

Doc, our mill doesn't have that feature.

In order to get back on topic, I'm going to say that the steam I saw is not necessarily a problem. But, it could be indicative of one. There's no doubt we need to get better at sharpening and, especially setting. As to the speed, we'll just keep increasing as we get the blade issues improved upon. At this point though, decent lumber at slow speed is better than poor lumber at a faster pace. 

[customsawyer]

I have raised more than one eyebrow at my sawing projects over the years. I think my friends have probably answered more questions about sawing speed than I have, at the projects. Folks tend to not want to mess up my concentration.   Which is a good thing. A few will ask why I'm sawing so fast. The answer is always the same. Because I can, and everything performs better when I'm at max speed for my mill and blade.

[Rhodemont]

YH your posts put in words what I have been slowly learning on my own.  I have never seen a band mill run other than my LT35 so have to drop down the performance of your HP to that of my 25hp Kohler.  I saw mostly red oak and work the 25hp hard without being close to your travel speeds.  But when I get everything just right I get that feel and sound from the mill that gives the nicest cut.  Increase travel rate and engine will bog down, too slow and get chatter, too much lube and get wet dust clogging up the cut and the engine bogs down.  

As far as steam I do not think I have ever seen steam.

[Magicman]

Water boils at 212° so I do not buy into anyone seeing actual "steam".  Condensation yes, but not steam.

[DHansen]

Water evaporation can and will start below 212° F.  The heat will aid in the evaporation process.  What can be seen is the water vapors coming off the item being heated.  And I agree the water will boil at 212°F.  Temperature differential also will come into play.  

[Magicman]

You are correct.  Evaporation meeting a colder environment produces condensation that we can see. 

[YellowHammer]

People can call it what they want...I think we are all saying the same thing, just different words? 

As soon as a band heats up due to a significant amount of increased friction during a bad cut, two things will generally happen.  If the log is more or less dry, the band will get so hot, black smoke will violently come out of the cut where the pitch in the log will literally burn, if not the wood fibers themselves, and the band will come out of the cut, black, burned and generally ruined.  There will be burn marks on the wood.  The band will be smoking hot, and will burn your hands if removed from the mill with bare hands before it has cooled.  Been there, done that many, many time early in my sawing career.   

However, in a high moisture content log, if I remember my old Thermodynamics:
As soon at the band body wanders and drags, the increased load is immediately heard in the power absorbed by the engine.  The metal band is absorbing the increase power as friction, and that produces instantaneous heating of the band.  The heated band is then cooled by the water in the log and if it absorbs enough energy to change from liquid phase to invisible gas phase, that is the thermodynamic definition of steam.  However, steam in its true sense is not visible, and it only becomes so when it exceeds the local atmospheric dew point immediately outside the kerf, then recondenses, and produce the visible "mist" generally know as steam, just as from a boiling pot of water.

Either way, in answer to the original question, "What does steam mean" in my experience, if a cut is not producing recondensing visible water vapor immediately in the vicinity of the kerf exit, and then it suddenly does start producing recondensing water vapor during the cut, then friction is suddenly increasing, and not good things are happening.   

   

[Magicman]

I 100% agree, but I have never had a band in such a condition.  If it got to that extent my by belt would slip and the engine would bog.  That is when I would have to shut er down and drag out the chainsaw. 

[Digger Don]

Jeez, I certainly didn't mean to start a debate as to whether it's steam, or condensation.    Whatever it is, I could see it and it wasn't sawdust. 

I guess I can safely say our belts are tight, because it will stall the engine. The one time I checked the blade, it was warm, but certainly not hot. Maybe, the whatever we're calling it, kept it cool.

[doc henderson]

DD I was suggesting you could look into a DC servo for your convenience.

[Digger Don]

I'll mention it to the owner, but that sort of thing is well above my pay grade. It would be nice, though. Is your throttle on the control panel, or the engine itself? Ours is on the engine.

[YellowHammer]

It's all in fun, and we all know each other, it's no different than debating which tastes better, grits or oatmeal.  (Grits wins).

[beenthere]

Also was not relating to the "steam" description, but what I found between steam, fog, condensation, mist as follows.


[color=var(--bbQxAb)]Fog: slightly larger than mist but far more widespread over an area and reaches much higher above ground. Steam: water vapour driven off boiling water. Hot, possibly scalding hot. Smoke: not water vapour, gases and particles given off from burning something. [/font][/size][/color]

[doc henderson]

The switch is on the control panel and the wire goes along with the fuel lines and other controls as well as hydraulic lines in the energy chain that goes to the engine.  the solenoid is mounted on the throttle on the motor.  I am happy to get more info like a pic or number if desired.  TK could also steer you in the right direction.

[doc henderson]

That is good Been there.  I think some of the debate, is what is visible.  If the air is at 80%, we do not see the water.  at 100%+ we see it.  and the 100% we speak of is relative humidity, so the surrounding air conditions dictate at what point we see the water vapor.   Hot water vapor cooling off in air will cause condensation after falling below dew point and be visible until it dissipates.

[Magicman]

Jeez, I certainly didn't mean to start a debate as to whether it's steam, or condensation. 

Not a problem Don, just a discussion where many members are offering possible scenarios regarding your phenomenon.  Even the contributors are also learning.

I notice that we did finally get to food and even Grits where we are unanimous concerning it's taste and nutritional value!!         

[Digger Don]

Doc, the pictures might be helpful, but I wouldn't know what I was looking at. the best I could do is pass them on to the owner. He knows electrical stuff.

I'm going to upset the apple cart and say grits is not unanimous. You guys can have the grits. I'd prefer sausage gray and biscuits. 

[beenthere]

I use the term "steam" or "steaming", when I see the fog arise from a freshly opened manure pile, or mulch pile. Or similar to seeing ones' breath on a cold morning, or the lathered-up horse that is sweating on a cold day. Steam is quite descriptive, so no problem with the subject title or the discussion. 

And sausage and gravy over biscuits is good, as well as grits topped with some soft-yolk fried eggs. mmmm good

[doc henderson]

just remember when you see a fresh pile of crap and no steam is coming off it, it is still putting off water vapor, that cannot see but you can taste and smell.  "food for thought"!  smell is just another form of taste.  hard to smell really dry stuff.  particles are interacting with taste cells in your nose.

[TimW]

Y'all are making me hungry. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Wait what? Where did I miss this declaration? Let's just say I fall in a 'different demographic' and would lean on the biscuits and gravy as a first choice.

 This whole conversation reminds of a slight divergence within my own family which is divided by hereditary lines into two groups which also overlap. There are the Lindtveit's on one side and the Elliott's on the other. We all get along just famously, but the joke is that if you ask an Elliott what time it is, after some mildly sarcastic comment like "Why, do you have a date or something?", but then will tell you the time. If you ask a Lindtveit what time it is he will likely tell you how to build a watch in the process. Guess which side I am on.

[doc henderson]

Prob. both Tom!!!!         

[Old Greenhorn]

Nope, good guess but no. It's funny but our family has branches in many corners of the world, and those kids developed within micro-groups, but being them all together and it is amazing how similar the parents raised and treat their kids. When I was young, uncles and aunts I had 'just met' would talk to me the same way my folks did. Very few in our families (until recently treated their kids like precious china dolls, they let them go out and learn things and get some bruises and then have a supportive conversation about how that might be avoided in the future. Stuff like that. I think that's why weather they are in Texas or Vermont or Maine I have been close to all my cousins, aunts, and uncles.

[JD Guy]

Doc, the pictures might be helpful, but I wouldn't know what I was looking at. the best I could do is pass them on to the owner. He knows electrical stuff.

I'm going to upset the apple cart and say grits is not unanimous. You guys can have the grits. I'd prefer sausage gray and biscuits.

With a side of grits and two over easy

[customsawyer]

Just to throw one more wrinkle into this conversation. Water will boil at lower temps the higher you go in elevation. Where I grew up in CO. it is 7600' and water boils at about 198 degrees there.

[moodnacreek]

Steam is what they used when they didn't have water power 

[Don P]

All I want to know is are we talking yellow or white?

[Magicman]

As for me and my house, it's Yellow. 

[YellowHammer]

This whole conversation reminds of a slight divergence within my own family which is divided by hereditary lines into two groups which also overlap. There are the Lindtveit's on one side and the Elliott's on the other. We all get along just famously, but the joke is that if you ask an Elliott what time it is, after some mildly sarcastic comment like "Why, do you have a date or something?", but then will tell you the time. If you ask a Lindtveit what time it is he will likely tell you how to build a watch in the process. Guess which side I am on.

I'm still trying to figure out what side of the family I'm on.  Everybody knows I have zero sarcastic or smart aleck characteristics, and if you don't believe it, ask anybody.  Maybe not.... 


I don't think I'm on the other side either, the guy who will tell you how to build a watch, because really all you need is a little cesium or rubidium and a photon counter.  I mean not much to say about that, pretty easy.

I think I'm the other guy who, when you ask what time it is, I will have to ask how fast you are going and what altitude you are?  I mean gravity, as described by general relativity, distorts spacetime, causing time dilation near massive objects. Clocks in stronger gravitational fields tick slower due to the curvature of spacetime, so the higher you are from the center of the Earth, the faster time flows. Additionally, according to special relativity, relative velocity affects the passage of time. Time appears dilated for observers moving at speeds relative to a stationary observer. This phenomenon arises from the Lorentz transformation, which governs the relationship between space and time coordinates in different reference frames. So, both gravity and velocity profoundly influence the measurement of time. therefore, if you ask me what time it is, will have to say "I have no idea."

[Old Greenhorn]

Robert, you would most defiantly be on my side of the family.

[doc henderson]

or answer, "who cares"!!!!!!

[jpassardi]

It seems the water vapor discussion may have gone awry somewhere along the way...   

[Don P]

Ahh, of course, blue.

[GAB]

Steam is what they used when they didn't have water power 

Last I knew you needed water to make steam.
GAB

[YellowHammer]

The topic has fallen into a black hole.  

[caveman]

I had grits Sunday night and for lunch yesterday and today.  Accompanied with steaming hot, fried fish.  I guess tomorrow for lunch it'll be hamburgers and black-eyed peas.  I don't know too much about steaming blades or thermal dynamics, but I like food.

[Digger Don]

The topic has fallen into a black hole.   

I'll take responsibility for starting it, but I swear, I had nothing to do with where it went. I'll now go out in the woods and never return.      But first...






Does that mean your only talent (besides sawing, of course) is sitting on an ice cream cone, and telling us what flavor it is?  

[Digger Don]

Everybody knows I have zero sarcastic or smart aleck characteristics, and if you don't believe it, ask anybody.

Why did this quote not show up in the blank space, in my last post?

[Magicman]

There is a little trick to put two different quotes in the same reply.  Your way was by far the simplest. 

[Digger Don]

You're not even going to tell us the secret? I'll probably forget it anyway, but the younger folks might remember.

[Magicman]

Not a secret, just kinda awkward.  I open two tabs with the FF open in each.  Make the quote and then copy it back to the first tab.

It is much simpler to make two replies and also easier for the reader to keep track of the conversation without wondering ?? 

[Digger Don]

Thanks. I'll try to remember to just quote once.

[Digger Don]

Here we go, again. Yesterday, I was getting quite a bit of "steam". The band wasn't cutting as well as it should have, either. I put another band on and the steam was greatly reduced. Not eliminated, but reduced. So, unless weather conditions changed in the time it takes to change bands, it proves to me that the band itself contributes to it. I have no doubt that the other things mentioned above contribute, but I'm pretty sure my sharpening skills need some improvement.