How do you all feel about this? I think this is wrong on so many levels, whats next 2nd amendment assault?
Not sure how this won't become a political thread and get moved but will leave this here for now.
As a strong Constitutionalist I disagree with the practice. Actually just had this discussion with my wife yesterday in regards to dealing with my father and his refusal of medical treatment at times. She wanted to know if we could force him. I explained to her that he has a right to refuse medical treatment, although there may be personal consequences as a result of that right and it's not a path we can turn down to change due to the slippery slope it becomes and this door to door is an example of where that path can lead.
That's something I'd expect to hear about in Canada, but even here I don't think that would work out. Sounds on par with something China would do.
Going door to door and offering to facilitate access to the vaccine sounds fine, similar to the way mobile blood drives are organized to reach a segment of the population that's willing to donate, just not sure how or when.
Its definitely not fine. Especially when pushing a vaccine that is not FDA approved with possible long term side effects. Yesterday they were in talks with cellphone providers to read all texts looking for people sharing side effects and talk about the vaccine. Social media is also removing posts about side effects now. Seems like they are hiding something just like a communist country. We can no longer trust the people in charge of this vaccine after reading recent news. I definitely will not get a booster if it's not FDA approved now. Send people door to door to pass out voter I'd is what should be happening.
If thy come here I will let Nancy deal with them and that ain't gonna be a good day for them :)
I agree with the above. If they want to help, post a number to call IF you want someone to come to your house to give you the vaccine. great for people with difficulties with mobility. what a waste to try and convince people, not to mention knocking on doors of already vaccinated people. where will they find qualified people to give the vaccine, and then have them go door to door. are they going to stay and watch for the 15 minute after shot time. if they have a reaction (very unlikely) I guess they call an ambulance. what if the pt. refuses to go to the hospital. Will they give a reward/cash to the door to door people. might get unscrupulous, like magazine sales. just make it easy for the ones that want it, answer questions for the ones that have them. do not waste your time trying to convince and coerce people who have already made up their mind.
I don't pay much attention to the news but the to the best of my knowledge what's being considered is going door to door to provide information rather than giving the actual vaccine.
Alan
In North Carolina yesterday they were giving the vaccine right there as well, news reports on it.
This has been in the works for a while. The Federal government doesn't get an idea and a week later boots are on the ground in multiple states, coordinating with local health departments complete with forms, training, etc.
What's next in the playbook?
If you don't agree just say so and close the door. Here the anti vaxers are picketing the centres and some are getting quite abusive. The news reported one had to endure a rascist, expletive filled rant about going back to India where he belonged.
this has become so political and emotional. that is why i do not wish anyone to show up on a door peddling the vaccine. we had store employees punched for asking shoppers to where a mask as was required by the store (so they could stay open).
Hopefully when there is the distance of time this period will be used as a teaching lesson on how not to behave in times of trouble.
As a practical matter this is a worldwide pandemic, the vaccination rates in Indonesia and Africa matter just as much as the rates in Arkansas.
I'm not much into thumping on the Bible or the Constitution, they are both heavy books full of nuance and people pull whatever tidbit out of both that seems to make their point. They are both based on a very simple premise though, it is my first check on my thoughts and actions. "Do not unto another man what you would not have done unto yourself". The rest is pretty much commentary. I would not hold you down and stick a needle in you. In that same thought, I also would not risk making you sick if I have the ability not to. Anything else in my own conscience would just be excuses for breaking that law.
our oath, "first do no harm"!
Quote from: sawguy21 on July 14, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
Here the anti vaxers are picketing the centres and some are getting quite abusive. The news reported one had to endure a rascist, expletive filled rant about going back to India where he belonged.
I haven't heard of anything like that here Roy. I know people that have gotten there jab and not been hassled at all. It seems most mind their own business although I have personally heard some wishing death on the pro choice factions
Quote from: sawguy21 on July 14, 2021, 05:32:18 PMThe news reported one had to endure a rascist, expletive filled rant about going back to India where he belonged.
Some groups will use any platform to incite and attack others, we saw a lot of that over the past year in the States. There is zero place for such behavior, and even if the group was supporting my position on a matter I would have no issue standing up to them.
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) it happened in Kelowna the other day, I saw the story on infotel. They even identified him and ran his picture, he is probably quite proud of himself.
I'll be completely frank to say that I'm one of those that will never get this vaccine. I have serious problems with the time frames of testing, the way it's being pushed, and whether the risks of the virus outweigh the risks of either catching it or getting the vax.
That said, I don't really care if they come door-to-door, I'll just say no thanks.
My perspective basically echoes @21incher (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24694) above, except I'm at the point where it'll be very tough for me to trust these vaccines getting FDA approval. Give it 10, 15, 20 years of study and open records of those studies and maybe I'd consider it, but I've seen these attempts to scare and vax the whole population far too many times for me to buy it.
I have no issues with either those that get vaxxed or not, it's none of my business. While I always hope that people won't judge me or dislike me based on these opinions I've been around on social media to know that's unlikely.
@aigheadish (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=53516) it is fully your choice, and I respect your decision. for what it is worth and for the record.
Thanks @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) that means a lot. I've read a lot of your stuff here and that's nice to hear coming from you!
I've got some admonishment from some folks in my family and it breaks my heart, but I guess that's the choice I'm making.
I got my jab when the County Health Department posted on Facebook they were taking appointments. Then I got notified almost daily via text msg my pharmacy was offering it, my PCP's office via email etc. Some folks don't have either of those things, especially regular wellness visits. Maybe calling it community outreach instead of door to door would be less inflammatory. The John Prine song Hello In There might best describe the target market .
I remember something I learned from my Dad. He was Secretary of a publicly traded corporation. The widow of one of the founders owned a substantial block of the stock, and he would call her every year to ask her if she would send in her proxy prior to the annual stockholders meeting. She just wanted to be asked nicely.
I agree with much of the above. It's a choice, no matter why you make it. Going door to door was intended, IMO, to offer 2 things. 1). Information about the vaccines to those open to receive it, and 2) administer the vaccine to those who request it. I see nothing wrong with that. If you don't wish them to provide those services just politely say "no thank you." You might put a sign on the door asking the vaccine outreach personnel to head elsewhere.
But I do think the issue of choice has been short-circuited by our politicized environment. If you choose not to take the vaccine, that's fine. But, without the vaccine, you should be diligent regarding your behavior around others to prevent catching and spreading the disease. I'm fine with your personal decision to abstain from the vaccine, but, in doing so, you should consider the consequences of your decision on others. It is this latter "follow-through" that I perceive may be ignored by those who choose to decline the vaccine. Just because we are, in general, not using masks and gathering in larger indoor and outdoor groups does not mean that non-vaccinated persons should act like they have had the vaccine. Choices have extenuating consequences.
smiley_beertoast
If you take the vaccine, you cannot hurt someone else if the immunity works. If you do not take the vaccine, you can hurt others depending on your behavior as an individual. In biological and evolutionary terms, what is good for the species can be better than what is good for the individual. But, we humans are focused on ourselves more than on our species or even other life on earth. I guess sapience can begat self-ness.
Just watching the news tonight and they did a segment on how the Air Force is secretly transporting 1/2 million illegals on private planes to cities throughout the USA. At least 15% of them have covid or have been exposed to covid and should be isolated but they are dumping them in local communities without vaccines. If the government cared about covid this wouldn't be happening as it is a major spreader move. Could be they are doing this to keep the levels up. It is completely hidden from public but seems to be a way to keep covid levels up and cities locked down. It's all about money. Notice how the vaccine producers still have zero liability protection. Just real facts and my opinion after still having side effects. If the vaccine works and people are aware of the consequences no one should need to wear a mask. Masks actually increase the levels of co2 in children wearing then in a short period of time according to a recent study leading to long term issues. We are no longer using science to put an end to this pandemic..
I suspect somebody is using the media to spread conspiracy theories, that sounds like fake news to me. You have the right to refuse the vaccine but you assume the responsibility. You don't have the right to risk infecting me or others to protect your perception of individual rights, I have the right to expect reasonable protection from you.
So the science is just going to ignore the Israeli report on how acquired immunity is actually more effective at beating the Delta vareint than the vaccine?
Immunity is immunity, but that is being ignored.
Are you suggesting we all risk getting infected to build herd immunity?
Quote from: sawguy21 on July 15, 2021, 07:36:14 PM
I suspect somebody is using the media to spread conspiracy theories, that sounds like fake news to me. You have the right to refuse the vaccine but you assume the responsibility. You don't have the right to risk infecting me or others to protect your perception of individual rights, I have the right to expect reasonable protection from you.
This was real news with high level air force members questioning it. Socialists only believe what the government approves but free people look at all sides.
And if we don't behave they'll release another biological weapon to make sure of it.
What I am saying is that there is no need for everyone to get the gene therapy in order for everyone to be safe.
If one already has acquired immunity then they are the same threat to others, perhaps less even, than those who took the shot. So why do they need to be administered the shot in addition?
Quote from: aigheadish on July 15, 2021, 10:50:35 AM
I'll be completely frank to say that I'm one of those that will never get this vaccine.
Do you wear a mask or take any precautions to insure you do not spread the disease?
Easy answer, Southside. You are probably correct about immunity, whether acquired naturally or by vaccine, and wondering which type of immunity is better is pretty meaningless. The problem is that there are many areas of the country that have a significant percentage of people that have not acquired either. Until we have a high enough percentage of the population immune to Covid, regardless of the mechanism it was obtained, those subgroups within our population remain at risk. We won't have another surge like we had in March of 2020 or last winter. But lives will be needlessly lost to this disease that we now can, for the most part, prevent, or at worst diminish.
And, natural immunity and vaccine produced immunity often have a limited shelf life. The common cold has taught us this year after year. So the more disease we let hang around, the more we can expect a future resurgence of Covid in those we believe are currently protected.
I don't know if much antibody testing is being done these days to see if you have been previously infected. You simply don't hear much about it anymore. We still have much to learn. How long immunity lasts is a big question. Until that gets answered, I believe the experts will over treat those that have been previously infected by offering a vaccine shot months later and those that have been vaccinated will be offered a booster shot. This is the exact mindset why President Trump was given the vaccine a few months after his infection.
Yankees-Red Sox ppd after 3 NY pitchers test COVID positive (apnews.com) (https://apnews.com/article/sports-baseball-new-york-mlb-boston-red-sox-77478c3ca4983dd00122f8224eaa3853)
QuoteCashman said all three were fully vaccinated, as are most of the players on the team. Among the three, two received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, and the other was either Pfizer or Moderna, according to Cashman.
"The vaccines that we encourage everybody to get guarantee not getting hospitalized and not getting death coming from COVID, which is important, but it doesn't prevent you from contracting COVID," Cashman said. "It just obviously protects you from the severe worst-case scenario effects from COVID."
In Feb 2020 through April we were without any PPE except soap and water, no masks or hand sanitizer because it was unavailable although we looked high and low. Our industry was essential and our staff was given the choice to work or stay away until they felt comfortable. All chose to remain at work. Some in our town including a town councilor got covid although we never hear until two weeks later so we are darn sure we've been exposed last summer.
It seems the virus like the flu it replaced attacks the vulnerable and though we don't want to pass it on, people need people to remain at their posts to keep the supply chains open such as food, medicine, petroleum and everyday items.
Many I know have taken the vac and we respect that but I find it despicable to hear some hope that the ones that decline are taken out by nature. There is not an ounce of love at the heart of those thoughts only pure hatred.
I understand now why Shakespeare found mobs so vile.
LA county just reinstated the mask mandate for everyone vaccinated or not in public places. Apparently the officials don't have confidence in the vaccine. This really sends out a good message.
Doctorb - to me it seems the intentional overtreatement without any antibody testing creates un-necessary risk to the recipient. We threw $50 billion at this just as a down-payment, I think testing would not be an unreasonable procedure, and could create interest in receiving the treatment if people honestly believed they were vulnerable.
The official message going out now would give North Korean propaganda run for it's money.
Quote from: Southside on July 16, 2021, 12:29:56 AMThe official message going out now would give North Korean propaganda run for it's money.
Have you thought about who's actually promoting the anti-vaccine doubt in the US?
There are interests out there that would love to see the US disrupted by another 12 months of pandemic. Pushing some misinformation out on the internet is a very cheap and low risk sort of attack. Plant the seeds and let the social media distribute it. Next thing you have people fearing the "Vaccine Police" will start kicking in their door.
BTW, the country of Niue has just completed it's vaccine program with 97% of the eligible population receiving the Pfizer shots, with no serious problems. OK, that's only ~2,000 people, but when you live on an Island that doesn't even have a respirator at the "hospital", keeping the virus out is kind of a priority.
So the Russians implemented the two tier PCR procedure for testing that's in effect now? The one where un vaccinated tests are replicated more?
Or is it the Chinese that are saying to ignore acquired immunity?
Maybe it was an infiltration team from Castro that filmed themselves with the media force vaccinating non consenting residential home patients.
No Putin is personally asking to read text messages to dispel any non approved vaccine messages.
Naa, I think the administration is doing a fine job on their own of creating doubt.
There is a huge difference between vaccine immunity and natural immunity.
Natural Immunity:
When a wild natural virus attacks your cells there is a chance it can infect a cell without our immune system even knowing. The wild virus has the ability to turn that cell into a weapons factory which then explodes that cells and causes complete chaos in the body. At this point you will know it by a fever, feeling tired, yada yada. It's at this point your body is in a war and if you win this war it stores this information in memory cells (M-cells). If another virus comes along your body has built this ability and knows this war tactic. For moms and wild life this is crucial because some of these do pass to the young. If it's worth passing then that is how it happens and that is how life evolves itself. With a statistic of a 98 or 99% survival rate from covid I do not believe mom will pass this to their young. It will be some other virus she landed in her life that her body thought was harmful.
Vaccine Immunity:
When you take a vaccine such as measles you might not get this experience. Typically there is a adjuvant in the vaccine that does cell damage and causes an immune response. This can go one or two ways... white cells come into the area and give it an effective percentage number. Sometimes the immune system forms to the adjuvant and just leaves the broke virus there. Sometimes it learns about the broken virus and this you now have immunity from it. With vaccines there is an issue;
- How long does immunity last after your immune system agrees
- Everyone is different, how does the body react to it
- Diet and vaccine immunity
The human genome project estimates a typical vaccinated person has strains just floating because it did not harm the body and it's unsure what to do with it.
Most moms coming into the hospital and before birth are titre tested against common viruses. 95% of them are not immuned anymore and are given the choice to vaccinate again. The hope is mom is protected and that mom can pass this onto the baby. Keep in mind that there are "ingredients" in them that will be in mom as well as baby.
As a human species we will not be able to sustain all the bacteria and viruses out there, logically we live with over millions of deadly viruses... we cannot administer those vaccines nor give the resources to cover them all. It's not just humans.. other animals are fighting the fight from viruses. Even bacteria has to fight this fight at such a small level. Some fox out in the woods who contracted some killer virus and beat it could have saved man kind? True.
Those that farm and have live stock know first hand about this and are the first to know greatly about life and death. Not a day goes by where animals do get sick, some farmers lose.. some win. I know I've spent many nights awake making sure live stock escapes death. I've been very successful with therapeutics (knock on wood).
Well yesterday at the press conference the white house stated they were telling Facebook what posts to remove. Any posts about side effects are for some reason being censored now from the top. Then the WHO made a statement they were told to ignore the Wuhan lab theory. Faucchi lied about his involvement with Whuan also but now we see he was funding Corona virus studies and was the one that signed the checks. This could have been contained earlier as top officials knew exactly what was going on. This virus has padded the pockets of many. Great way to get people to trust a vaccine.
Let's keep this as apolitical as possible. It's an informative discussion.
Quote from: doctorb on July 16, 2021, 08:40:54 AM
Let's keep this as apolitical as possible. It's an informative discussion.
So let's call the facts coming out that are driving many away from the vaccine so we don't have to discuss the real issues political and try to hide them. Destroying free speech to hide facts is not what America should be enduring right now.
Go back to last fall and watch some of the videos of Biden and Harris saying they don't trust the vaccine because of who was in charge of it. My grandson heard the same story on one of his shows about not trusting the vaccine. It's definitely another big reason for rejection of it. Politicians, Celebrities, and News reporters also deserve part of the blame that door to door visits won't overcome.
lots of info here. the antibodies moms pass via the placenta to offspring are made of protein, and last about 5 months in humans, and do not give them long term immunity. the children have to go on and get the basic infections and develop their own immunity. I tell parents their children need to get about 100 viruses between the age of 5 months and 5 years. some infections cross immunize with other related viruses. there are 104 types of strep, but you prob. only need to get 12 or so and cover the bases. My kids never had an antibiotic for strep and did just fine. If you treat on the first day of an infection like strep, you prob. also get less immunity and will get more types of strep. antibiotics treat bacterial infection. The immunity for viruses use antibodies to identify the cells infected, or to coat the attachment spike so it cannot attach. viral infection takes over a cell and its reproductive equipment. your own immune system destroys that cell to stop reproduction. It is seen as foreign. If you get the infection, you prob. develop hundred of different antibodies to help identify and protect you from that virus. the vaccines tend to be specific to some important part of identifier of that virus. yes, getting repeated infections improves the immunity. I was sick for 6 weeks when I started in pediatrics. all viruses I had as a kid. so getting an immunization after an infection mimics this natural phenomenon. as well after immunization, you can get the viral infection and this also builds on the immunity started by the shot. and you are less like to die or get very sick. you are probably less contagious as you never develop the viral load that a viral naïve person would get. After you are immune to a virus, the antibody level does not directly relate to the level of ongoing immunity. Lymphocytes do the heavy lifting regarding viral infection. b lymphocytes make antibodies. there are killer cells and memory cells. very complex. low levels of antibodies survey for the infection they were made for. then quickly increase and alert the body when it contacts an antigen that it fits. that is where you can get unintended consequences like attacking other organs. it is prob. immunity to a virus that causes your (usually kids) body to attack your pancreas and causes type 1 diabetes. All the inflammation from a vaccine or infection is from you immune system attacking and disrupting the structure of viruses and bacteria. It will likely take out the infected cells as well.
the mask thing is political. hard to tell who has the vaccine and who does not. the mitigation works as we have discussed as we had a very low season for influenza and RSV. even if it did not help slow the covid virus, we made it through a very busy time since we did not have to deal with people sick from these other viruses. there is a risk to any good medication. I could give you a glass of water and tell you it good for you (and it is, water is lifesaving, try to go without it for a week) and has no side effects, but it does not cure cancer. too much water can be deadly if it lowers you sodium, or causes congestive heart failure, or if you drown in it. So if you explore the extremes all kinds of things can be said. The government should be trying to look at the country and world as a whole and trying to save as many as possible. If the mortality of the virus was more like Ebola say 100%, and the vaccine mortality was 1% but effective, we would all get the vaccine if there was a prevalence of the disease. If the mortality of the disease was 1%, and the mortality of a vaccine was 0.001% the government would want you to take it. you might say you do not want it due to the mortality. there is no guarantee, that the person who dies of the vaccine would have also otherwise died of the disease. The goal of the vaccine was to shut this down. the mitigation including masks, was to slow things down pre-vaccine so the hospital could cope. the pattern of infection is to hit a part of the country all at once. we had to do things we would have otherwise never done to get through this. Lets hope the worst is over. in 10 years we will know all about this virus, and hopefully will no longer care. We still have a mask mandate in the hospital. I have developed a contact dermatitis to the masks. no one can see it cause I wear a mask at work. :)
I also want to add antibodies and breast milk.. very important. Few years ago it was unheard of that a cell so big as a macrophage could cross into an infants body through breast milk. This hybridization now days is known and with it carries many unknowns. With macrophages entering a body you now have a processor. Not only a processor but a carrier..
About ten years ago I knew a doctor that did research in breast milk(20 years). He no longer studies but he did say.."it is amazing what a female can do.. more amazing what many could do".
There is a lot of good information here and I will tell you hands down.. it's not something you can figure out OR talk about in a day. Is a doctor going to write you a slip for your natural immunity even when you're producing antibodies. Nope. Is that natural immunity going to get you a hot ticket to France or Canada.. nope. Nature is very complex but I hope doc henderson is right and this thing is short lived. Otherwise we will be very divided.
P.S. I put no trespassing signs on my land.. I think that should keep them away for now.
most of the antibodies in breast milk are IgA, and protect surfaces and do not go systemic. Most of that is early and in the colostrum. yes breast milk is good. lots of research being done. You always have to use caution if a life long researcher makes conclusions first and spend a lifetime trying to prove it vs the other way around. I am not saying about your doc, but there are many things touted about breast milk that are vastly overstated. usually nature has it figured out long before we do.
Nearly 11,000 Deaths After COVID Vaccines Reported to CDC, as FDA Adds New Warning to J&J Vaccine • Children's Health Defense (childrenshealthdefense.org) (https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vaers-deaths-injuries-reported-cdc-covid-vaccines-moderna-pregnant-women/?utm_source=salsa&eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=9c4528c4-637d-4aed-858a-a2383936adf0)
Data released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) included 463,457 reports of injuries and deaths, across all age groups, following COVID vaccines — an increase of more than 25,000 compared with the previous week.
Paul the numbers do not seem right at all. if you read about the information it is not from the CDC, but the defender sighting the "national vaccine information center" all appear to be anti vax propaganda. The wording is not accurate and designed to make it sound terrible. a reported adverse event, is even a little pain at the injection site, not an injury. they throw in the phrases FDA and CDC to make it look good. each article is designed to scare people.
US COVID-19 cases climb steadily all week | CIDRAP (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/07/us-covid-19-cases-climb-steadily-all-week)
"becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated" (CDC) Director Rochelle Walensky, MD, MPH.
" Pfizer and BioNTech announced that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has granted priority review designation as they apply for full approval for their COVID-19 vaccine in those 16 and older. The goal date for an FDA decision is January 2022.
Expected to come around the same time (early to midwinter) is an agency decision on whether both the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines will receive emergency-use authorization (EUA) for children under 12, NBC News reports. Results from trials by both companies are expected in the fall."
"White House public health leaders are continuing their call for vaccinations. During the briefing, the speakers re-emphasized that almost all COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths in the country are in unvaccinated people, with Fauci highlighting UK and Israeli data indicating that vaccinations drastically help curb the impact of COVID-19, including the Delta (B1617.2) variant."
"Data show 388,738,495 COVID-19 vaccine doses have been delivered and 336,054,953 have been administered in the country, with 160,408,538 Americans fully vaccinated."
I get my second Pfizer shot next Friday. :)
Dr. Osterholm Podcast
https://open.spotify.com/show/0ymlroFYVlSAnoq0uqECGx
Quote from: SwampDonkey on July 17, 2021, 03:39:50 AM
US COVID-19 cases climb steadily all week | CIDRAP (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/07/us-covid-19-cases-climb-steadily-all-week)
"becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated" (CDC) Director Rochelle Walensky, MD, MPH.
" Pfizer and BioNTech announced that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has granted priority review designation as they apply for full approval for their COVID-19 vaccine in those 16 and older. The goal date for an FDA decision is January 2022.
Expected to come around the same time (early to midwinter) is an agency decision on whether both the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines will receive emergency-use authorization (EUA) for children under 12, NBC News reports. Results from trials by both companies are expected in the fall."
"White House public health leaders are continuing their call for vaccinations. During the briefing, the speakers re-emphasized that almost all COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths in the country are in unvaccinated people, with Fauci highlighting UK and Israeli data indicating that vaccinations drastically help curb the impact of COVID-19, including the Delta (B1617.2) variant."
"Data show 388,738,495 COVID-19 vaccine doses have been delivered and 336,054,953 have been administered in the country, with 160,408,538 Americans fully vaccinated."
I get my second Pfizer shot next Friday. :)
Dr. Osterholm Podcast
https://open.spotify.com/show/0ymlroFYVlSAnoq0uqECGx
Fear mongering. Pandemic is over wether they want to let go of emergency powers or not. I just don't understand how it could still spread rampant with 70%+ vaccinated, it won't, so even the unvaccinated will be fine so long they don't go around licking every gas pump and door handle, and even if they did get it why does it matter to a vaccinated person? Time for things to go back to normal. Of course my habits will be altered life after COVID now, I won't be going out in public using doors, pumps, debits machines without washing my hands especially in flu season. It's been nice not having been sick for 1.5 yr
Media is grasping onto anything too, after a long 1.5 year of news worthy and catchy headlines/crazy things happening, life is getting more normal again and they aren't getting big spotlight like they were.
Hemlock
I just want to point out that, for the most part, Covid is an airborne respiratory virus transmitted through inhalation. If it were widely transmitted via touch contact, we would know by now. The guidelines fortreatingcommonly touched surfaces have pretty much been removed. I'm not saying you can't contract the disease via touching a freshly contaminated surface. I'm just reiterating that contact transmission is a very, very small part of this global infection
The unvaccinated need to focus on protecting against airborne transmission with masks and distancing in crowded situations.
we are seeing an uptick. admitted a 75 y/o overnight, and treating a 38 y/o with a dual antibody product as he has comorbidities. He had covid last year early, but now has it again. Neither were vaccinated.
Quote from: doc henderson on July 17, 2021, 03:27:52 AM
each article is designed to scare people.
I think we have seen that very same thing from both sides. I put this link up to the light to gain insight and I appreciate your response. The virus and the cure have caused harm and whenever something is kept hidden from people they become suspicious. I believe what the president said yesterday was over the top and causes further division and suspicion. We went from flatten the curve last year to no vax no job no freedom. (Impfstoff macht frei)
I would love to find a simple daily updated chart on vax numbers that can be trusted,not fudged to control a narrative and or agenda. Trust has been hard to find in these past years of media driven fear and misinformation.
A good part of my income is from machine sales but if I don't like a certain model or if I think it's a poor fit for the customer I will give them all the information knowing that the sale lost as well the time and money that it took to lose it. When a new model of chainsaw comes out and my customers want to be first in line I advise them to consider waiting a year and see how they hold up to real testing because I'd rather they be happy in the long run than temporarily.
Thanks for your posts Doc
I watched a good video about how the Covid vaccines work and how the side effects are caused by not by the vaccine but the body reaction to the vaccine and no one can actually predict the future outcome for this type of fast tracked vaccine. The spikes seem to be a big part of problems when the imune system doesn't shut down the response to this type of vaccine quick enough in some. Also for the most accurate tracking of side effects look at the EU And Germany figures that are actually tracking 100% of them accurately and not hiding issues and under reporting like the CDC. The EU has good stats on children also. Apparently the HHS gets paid for every vaccine administered here and many side effects are not properly tracked to push the vaccine in the US.
Looking at the numbers for Georgia there's a huge correlation with median household income and vaccination rate by county. The local health dept outreach in my county (Forsyth) was mostly a post on Facebook, they might have done Insta-gram also.The first clinic was a mess, long lines, some people got turned away, they figured out what they doing and it was pretty well organized. 48% fully vaccinated here as of July 19. Not quite where we need to be but way better than say Charlton at 14%. Residents of wealthier areas have more access and opportunities to get the vaccine if they choose. The expanded outreach programs are just trying to level the playing field.
With respect, I am a vaccinated person to whom it does matter for several reasons:
The more people who are infected, the greater chance for additional variants which could lead to one I'm not protected against. Less people vaccinated, more "petri" dishes running around, increase probability of variants. It is a numbers game.
While I'm reasonably well protected, especially against chances for serious complications or death, there also are break though exposure risk as no vaccine is 100%. The more people spreading it, the greater chance of a break though case for me and those in my family even if vaccinated.
Most importantly, I have two children too young for a vaccine as of now. While we take reasonable precautions, the simple fact is another persons choice to not be vaccinated, especially those who don't believe in the danger and take little or no precautions, greatly increases the impact on my children's lives and the lives of others who can't yet be vaccinated due to age or heath reasons. From impeding their freedom of movement and ability to enjoy life as fully as if we had much higher vaccination rates, to greatly increasing the probability of their exposure of current and potential future variant strains, the choice is more complicated then you do what you want and I do what I want.
While I am by nature a pretty independent minded and freedom loving person, and greatly respect one's right to whatever choice. This is one that has greater impacts than on just myself or on one's self, I don't have all the answers, but I would submit that the ethical question is much more broad and complicated.
Quote from: Lostinmn on July 17, 2021, 12:39:59 PM
With respect, I am a vaccinated person to whom it does matter for several reasons:
The more people who are infected, the greater chance for additional variants which could lead to one I'm not protected against. Less people vaccinated, more "petri" dishes running around, increase probability of variants. It is a numbers game.
While I'm reasonably well protected, especially against chances for serious complications or death, there also are break though exposure risk as no vaccine is 100%. The more people spreading it, the greater chance of a break though case for me and those in my family even if vaccinated.
Most importantly, I have two children too young for a vaccine as of now. While we take reasonable precautions, the simple fact is another persons choice to not be vaccinated, especially those who don't believe in the danger and take little or no precautions, greatly increases the impact on my children's lives and the lives of others who can't yet be vaccinated due to age or heath reasons. From impeding their freedom of movement and ability to enjoy life as fully as if we had much higher vaccination rates, to greatly increasing the probability of their exposure of current and potential future variant strains, the choice is more complicated then you do what you want and I do what I want.
While I am by nature a pretty independent minded and freedom loving person, and greatly respect one's right to whatever choice. This is one that has greater impacts on just myself or on one's self, I don't necessary have all the answers and just saying the question is much more broad and complicated.
We have a flu that goes around and mutates every year, we haven't restricted people of crossing borders or making flu shots mandatory for jobs in the past? If it mutates then we can re assess and go from there, it's time to go back to normal.
The recent stats I saw for Canada was a 97.8% recovery rate of the infected and that % would be of recorded cases just slightly above NZ at 97.4% The gene therapy is still in the test stages and there are many unknowns in the short and certainly the long term effects.
I have a longtime friend that lives several hours from here that told me he was having very dark thoughts and hadn't been able to meet at AA for over a year, zoom wasn't working for him. Two main things that have helped him in our visits since is don't watch MSM and stay in the Word. There are many like him, isolated from friends and society tossed about by fear and despair of the virus.
I'm thankful for this respectful place for discussion.
Quote from: Lostinmn on July 17, 2021, 12:39:59 PM
I have two children too young for a vaccine as of now. While we take reasonable precautions, the simple fact is another persons choice to not be vaccinated, especially those who don't believe in the danger and take little or no precautions, greatly increases the impact on my children's lives and the lives of others who can't yet be vaccinated due to age or heath reasons. From impeding their freedom of movement and ability to enjoy life as fully as if we had much higher vaccination rates, to greatly increasing the probability of their exposure of current and potential future variant strains, the choice is more complicated then you do what you want and I do what I want.
While I am by nature a pretty independent minded and freedom loving person, and greatly respect one's right to whatever choice. This is one that has greater impacts than on just myself or on one's self, I don't have all the answers, but I would submit that the ethical question is much more broad and complicated.
I understand your fears and have 5 children from 19 to 35 years old. There are many dangers in the world and you really can't protect them from all things. It is not the unvaxed that impede their freedom of movement or keep them from enjoying life.
My son works in a high risk industry, one daughter worked alone on nightshift at a 711 and they all drive automobiles out on busy highways. We caution them to be aware and alert but not fearful.
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) thanks for you level headed assessment and to all for your thoughts. It becomes hard to know who to trust. It is bad when things are so political and you have to evaluate motive with each source. For today I will leave it at that. Thanks Gentlemen. and women.
I guess 3 of the Tx Dems that flew to Washington (to avoid a vote) on a plane with no masks, and a 30 pack of natural light, have tested + for covid after meeting with the VP.
Quote from: HemlockKing on July 17, 2021, 12:46:48 PM
We have a flu that goes around and mutates every year, we haven't restricted people of crossing borders or making flu shots mandatory for jobs in the past? If it mutates then we can re assess and go from there, it's time to go back to normal.
This is more like the 1918 pandemic. There WERE restrictions put in place during that, even though the exact cause wasn't known. Medical treatment was primitive, and if you needed what's now routine hospital care, you probably just died. Without vaccines at the time the flu virus DID mutate into the multiple and still mutating variants that are still a problem. Most of the population now has some resistance, so it doesn't crop up as a pandemic any more, just random. outbreaks. That would eventually happen with Corona, but it took 3 years and X million deaths for flu to get there.
So I'm suggesting there is probably one good chance at actually controlling the virus, in the same way smallpox and polio have been controlled. And that's right now, when we have effective vaccines. A new variant might appear tomorrow that evades the vaccine, and the more cases currently spreading, the more likely this is to happen.
Its possible to eliminate this virus in a population, even without the vaccine. Its NOT easy, but it's been done multiple times. But while the virus is still active in other populations there is a high risk that it will reappear via international travel. This has also happened multiple times.
I will also say that currently living without the virus (and No local restrictions) is good.
Quote from: Ianab on July 17, 2021, 04:58:15 PM
Quote from: HemlockKing on July 17, 2021, 12:46:48 PM
We have a flu that goes around and mutates every year, we haven’t restricted people of crossing borders or making flu shots mandatory for jobs in the past? If it mutates then we can re assess and go from there, it’s time to go back to normal.
This is more like the 1918 pandemic. There WERE restrictions put in place during that, even though the exact cause wasn't known. Medical treatment was primitive, and if you needed what's now routine hospital care, you probably just died. Without vaccines at the time the flu virus DID mutate into the multiple and still mutating variants that are still a problem. Most of the population now has some resistance, so it doesn't crop up as a pandemic any more, just random. outbreaks. That would eventually happen with Corona, but it took 3 years and X million deaths for flu to get there.
So I'm suggesting there is probably one good chance at actually controlling the virus, in the same way smallpox and polio have been controlled. And that's right now, when we have effective vaccines. A new variant might appear tomorrow that evades the vaccine, and the more cases currently spreading, the more likely this is to happen.
Its possible to eliminate this virus in a population, even without the vaccine. Its NOT easy, but it's been done multiple times. But while the virus is still active in other populations there is a high risk that it will reappear via international travel. This has also happened multiple times.
I will also say that currently living without the virus (and No local restrictions) is good.
To clear up my status on this I will add I did agree with restrictions right up until about 2 months ago, when we started having lots of vaccinations going on, peak pandemic here was 90 cases in one day I believe, and that was mostly in the city, I can’t even be sure I’ve been in close contact with COVID once.
The restrictions still being dragged out now here are ridiculous, still masks indoors. Have been low in COVID numbers over the last few weeks especially, strong vaccination numbers too.
with a 5 to 11 day incubation period, when it hits and area, it will be well underway before anyone knows it. we are seeing an uptick here. be careful out there. I stand corrected, it was miller lite. smiley_beertoast
Quote from: doc henderson on July 17, 2021, 04:03:24 PM
I guess 3 of the Tx Dems that flew to Washington (to avoid a vote) on a plane with no masks, and a 30 pack of natural light, have tested + for covid after meeting with the VP.
Bless their hearts....
If they were all really vaccinated 3 out of 60 gives a 5% chance that is within the advertised rate. Let's wait a couple more days for final stats and quarantines. There were over 100 of them huddled on the steps with no masks to monitor now.
I got to thinking about the smallpox pandemic and have been reading. History can sometimes predict the future. A vaccine was developed in 1796 which could eradicate the disease. It wasn't until 1949 that smallpox was eliminated in the US. Smallpox was officially declared eradicated in 1980. 184 years to get rid of a terrible disease when it could have been done in just a few years.
In 1901 some localities started mandating shots with a fine if ya didn't get one. Ended up in the Supreme Court with a ruling I don't fully understand.
Newspaper editorials at the time, characterized the smallpox vaccination controversy as "a conflict between intelligence and ignorance, civilization and barbarism." The New York Times dismissed anti-vaccine activists as "a familiar species of cranks" who were "deficient in the power to judge [science]."
I think a true statement that can be applied in 2021.
In any case, smallpox is no longer a worry. How long do we let covid be a worry?
Some communities are not out of the woods yet. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. ;)
The Delta Variant Is Surging in Missouri - The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/delta-missouri-pandemic-surge/619456/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
Jefferson sent a supply of kine-pox vaccine (kine=cow) with Lewis and Clark on their 1802 expedition west to vaccinate the tribes they met along the way. Jefferson had self administered the shot. I've read that the supply was spoiled before they left but am not entirely sure. When they had their run in with the Blackfoot, Lewis threatened their chief with it. I'm not sure he understood what he had. Can't say better or worse but history would certainly be different if they had been vaccinated.
One take away from the TX senators travels. You don't have to be symptomatic to be a carrier infecting those around you. The director where I'm working got it twice before finally getting off her high horse and getting the shot. I didn't necessarily appreciate the exposure.
the tech of today rests on the shoulder from stuff way back. most things like penicillin and the small pox vaccine, were luck (serendipity) so the word "develop" is a reach. got to start somewhere. these days we make a vaccine bit by bit. should be better and cleaner with fewer side effects, but we will see. Most if not all folks that claim PCN allergy are basing it on rumors passed down by generations of mothers that remember reactions to the medication (made with horse serum containing proteins) that caused the reaction. "if you ever get a rash on PCN and you take it again, you will probably die". most kids get a rash with viruses, so part of the reason to not use antibiotics for a viral infection. besides the fact that they do not help. beta-lactam antibiotics are 80% of the oral antibiotics.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on July 18, 2021, 04:19:42 AM
Some communities are not out of the woods yet. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. ;)
The Delta Variant Is Surging in Missouri - The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/delta-missouri-pandemic-surge/619456/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
Reading that article I'm surprised they just now started using Churches. When the vaccine eligibility expanded here the Mega Church and the Large Baptist Church both hosted clinics. Only places that had enough parking and indoor seating to handle the crowd size.
Here in northwest Arkansas we are just a few miles from Missouri and conditions are just as bad. Tonight's news was that some hospitals are full.
To fight covid, our state has passed a law that masks can no longer be required in schools. They also passed a law that schools cannot require teachers to get a vaccination.
So....in the coming school year we have students and teachers that won't need to wear a mask. We have kids not old enough to get the vaccine. An estimate is only 50 - 60 percent of the teachers have got the vaccine. We have 30 kids in a small classroom where it's going to be near impossible to practice social distancing. Anybody see a problem?
Look up Dr Robert Malone - he invented the mRNA gene therapy and has been rather vocal about the significant side effects the public is not being told about. He is obviously pro vaccine, however he is against forced vaccination, and he just said the data shows something is wrong, very wrong - the countries with the highest vaccine rates have the highest Covid rates now too.
The PCR testing is being done with two different thresholds, meaning if you say your are vaccinated then the test is run at a lower level to look for the virus than if you say you are not. Why would that be the case?
You can also look up the studies that have shown a significant issue with mask contamination and kids, especially at school. PPE serves a very good purpose, when it's used properly, and in serviceable condition, does not matter if it's chainsaw chaps or the legitimate use of a mask, but when misused or not in serviceable condition that PPE can be a greater hazard.
The six foot social distancing has been de-bunked numerous times, in reality it would be more like 30', which is not possible in modern society.
Sounds like Arkansas is listening to the science and trying to find a path forward that allows personal responsibility, choice, and the reality of how a working economy are necessary to move beyond this.
Dr Malone was talking about the vaccine on Newsmax and was basically saying that if you are 20 or under the side effects of Covid are not as dangerous as the side effects of the vaccine for most cases. Something to do with the different spike used in the vaccine. I tried reading some of the papers about it but they were way over my head. The different spike used in the vaccine sounds to be the cause of side effects in the brain and heart membrane. The US is for some reason hiding information on side effects and trying not to follow science anymore. It's all about money and control. Good to see areas trying to get back to normal and hopefully they will succeed.
It would be nice if the government would release the number of infected illegals distributed to each city to see if that has anything to do with recent spikes.
A little late to my long reply to @Larry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=125)
Other than being a decent human being, not up in people's faces, covering my coughs, washing hands etc. I've followed the rules to the letter. I'm usually socially distant, masks make it very difficult to breathe and I have some existing breathing issues already.
My work has been considered essential, we have customers in Wuhan, where things are shipped back and forth repeatedly, and we never stopped showing up. We've got a diverse group of employees, where I work and interact on a regular basis with about 30 people every day. A few of them have tested positive but a positive test, in the world of conflicting PCR cycles, doesn't mean much to me. I don't think that anyone doesn't know the vaccine exists at this point, so I'm not sure who I'm infecting (if anyone) that isn't willing to take the risk of not getting the vax.
I'm certainly not trying to be an a-hole by not taking the vax but I've seen a lot of signs that point to the powers that be ARE being a-holes by looking only at science and only reporting on that that supports the sale of more vax or the removal of more freedoms. When guys like Dr. Malone, mentioned above, makes noise like he does I tend to listen.
I really feel like we've been scammed. I'd like to think I'd say the same thing if I were in the hospital, but who can know. Looking back at similar powers that be, years ago when trying to do the exact same thing, at least a few times, leads me to a distrust of those powers.
I have kids who I worry very much about getting one of these vaccines (not to mention future mRNA ones), there don't seem to be any studies of really any side effects, the VAERS database is essentially voluntary and subject to fraud, and I worry about vax effects that build up over the course of years that we don't understand. Am I willing to take my chances that my kids may get sick from the virus over the chance they'll not be able to have kids, go blind/deaf, get a swollen heart, get diabetes, a stroke, shingles, or who knows what else, because we don't seem to even be looking? Yup.
It's nice to have a community where these discussions can be had civil-y. If anyone doesn't want me to show up at a Forestry Forum meetup they can just let me know, I'll be ok.
It is refreshing to have a place to chat where personal attacks are prohibited. Most folks that stay here are in it for the shared knowledge, not to one up someone.
There's a spike protein conspiracy theory that was started on social media, claiming it is cytotoxic. That's been debunked.
So is it always conspiracy when one independent scientist questions government scientist or does the MSM decide when the term conspiracy comes in? Even when it is Dr Robert Malone the discoverer of in-vitro and in-vivo RNA transfection and the inventor of mRNA vaccines who is voicing concerns?
https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us
I notice that those opposed to his concerns drop the Doctor from his name.
Generally it's considered a conspiracy when it goes opposite the MSM view. When it's in line with the narrative it's considered a consensus.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on July 19, 2021, 03:35:10 PM
There's a spike protein conspiracy theory that was started on social media, claiming it is cytotoxic. That's been debunked.
That's not how it was described. This vaccine is supposed to be out of your body in a couple days leaving the rest up to your immune system but in some it actually lingers longer and attaches to cells it should not be was what I took from the interview for us that don't know medical terms. Only time will debunk issues with this vaccine the way it was engineered. Truthfull information analysis of all side effects over the next several years would be a helpful start. Seems some in Congress are making big bucks off areas of this vaccine distribution and protective apparatus investments so there will be paid troll attacks also. The EU, Germany, and Denmark seem to be handling that better then most countries at this point in time. Read the doctor's Twitter feed and there are many from both sides posting but most of them have never worked on a vaccine like this and just blowing smoke.
It's up to 5 dems from Texas now testing positive. Harris and Pelosi had contact with them also. It doesn't seem like the vaccine is as effective as promised after seeing the proof we now have if they were all really vaccinated.
Y'all appear much more involved in digging on this but when I got the vax the nice nurse told me it won't keep me from potentially getting the virus, it'll hopefully keep me from getting deathly ill from it.
The son of a friend was scheduled to give his Dad a kidney last week, he's randomly popping up a positive so they had to postpone till they figure it out.
On conspiracy or not, peer review. That isn't our peers folks. If a million people on facebook or the forum say a thing, put on your tin foil hat grab some popcorn and enjoy the show. If a group of professionals working in their area of expertise agree, that is consensus, sit up and take notice.
It is my responsibility to judge the information on something that could have long term positive or negative effects on my body and part of that is to decide which group of professionals is right because there certainly is not a consensus between them all.
Y'all got the vax and I'm ok with that. Many in my family have too so I wish them very well. Some that have taken it are still in hiding and I'm at peace with that also.
I wouldn't even be involved in the discussion except there is a growing hatred and vitriol (not here on the FF) against those that have chosen to decline the gene therapy that remind me of the early 1930's in europe.
Quote from: btulloh on July 19, 2021, 04:47:36 PMGenerally it's considered a conspiracy when it goes opposite the MSM view
but MSM spouts what government (Dr Falcui) says as fact, who is already been proven to lie even under oath in front of a congressional hearing (fact, not politics).
If I hadn't been vaccinated back in March I wouldn't be getting it for myself today.
That group of Texas Democrats that flew to Washington DC all were vaccinated and they contracted and spread the virus anyway. Then Biden said "the epidemic of outbreaks was only among the unvaccinated people." Another obvious lie. Now they're telling us that being vaccinated will keep us from severe symptoms which now just feels like them covering up another blunder because we KNOW they are incapable of straight talk.
Dr Fauci has been so discredited and yet they keep him and still expect us to trust the science. Biden and Harris both said they would never get the vaccine if Trump recommend it, but they accuse Republicans of making this political.
What in the world are we supposed to believe?
Well, you can believe Sean Hannity, if you choose, who, along with a few of his Fox colleagues, suggested yesterday that people should take Covid seriously and consult with their doctor as to whether they should get the vaccine. Now that's a switch! Then there's cartoons like this....
https://digitaledition.baltimoresun.com/html5/mobile/production/default.aspx?edid=856fc75b-a8c7-4477-b72c-657a441b98f4
....which I find both humorous and sad.
I only can go by the facts I see. Locally the numbers of positive cases were dropping. The government dumped bus loads of illegals in Rochester and a couple days later the numbers start spiking up and the vaccination rate has not changed. Around here it shows that the facts are being hidden and the government is actually not testing them for infection that seems to be spreading covid for some unknown reason and then blaming it on those that that have chosen to refuse the vaccine. Why would the stats for this type of relocation not be included and infected rates be adjusted to be honest and go so far to remove posts from social media questioning it. I don't think many watch fox anymore since the change of management.
Edit. Just read they have finally started testing the ones they catch in the Rio Grande valley and the positive rate is 900% of what they were saying and that's just for the ones caught before putting them on busses and planes. Guess they are learning from social media posts they have Facebook remove.
Quote from: doctorb on July 20, 2021, 09:19:24 AM
Well, you can believe Sean Hannity, if you choose, who, along with a few of his Fox colleagues, suggested yesterday that people should take Covid seriously and consult with their doctor as to whether they should get the vaccine. Now that's a switch! Then there's cartoons like this....
I always wonder at stereotypes held against opposing views or even against those looking earnestly for the truth. Fox for the hillbillies or CNN for the woke or vice versa.Most people aren't watching either these days. It's best to not demonize either side in this discussion as both sides have loved ones that have made different choices
Paul-
No purposeful demonizing by me. Didn't mean my post that way. I was responding to the previous posts as to who or what to believe. I thought it important to demonstrate how those things can change over time. As I said in a recent post, I have no problem with personal decisions regarding the vaccine, as long as those who wish not to have it respect the health and decisions of those who do. For those of us who have decided to receive it, we should extend that respect to those who refrain from it as well.
For what it's worth Hannity has been using that line ever since the vaccine came out. He's, otherwise, stayed pretty quiet about it, pro or con, only saying "you should look at the data and discuss with your doctors to determine if it's right for you." (probably not a direct quote, but close enough for context). I'm not really a Hannity fan but I listen just about every day on my way home from work.
Quote from: Roxie on July 20, 2021, 06:49:07 AM
What in the world are we supposed to believe?
I have a large network of local highly trained and skilled health care professionals who try to keep me healthy. Since these people are in my local community, I get to occasionally interact with a few as friends. I trust them with my life if I were to have a heart attack or in a serious accident. They tell me to get vaccinated.
I also have a blood sucking, only interested in making a profit, health care insurer. One of their goals is to keep me alive so I can continue paying them. Their other goal is to keep me out of the hospital so they don't have to pay. They told me to get vaccinated. I think making money is important to these folks.
Who I don't trust is the health care expert I see on some fringe network that has a history of championing conspiracy's that later turn out to be false.
No disrespect @Larry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=125) but we should keep in mind that the lab leak option was a conspiracy theory to, essentially, all the non-fringe networks just as recently as a few weeks ago. They didn't even want to consider it an option.
How about posts or news about India using Ivermectin to great success? More non-fringe networks won't even touch it. Hydroxychloroquin (or however it's spelled) was mentioned as an option, therapeutically, turns out it kind of works... Nope, can't mention that one either or you'll get thrown off the social networks.
What in the world are we supposed to believe? is about as valid as a question gets when it turns out that a fair amount of these "conspiracy theories" have either turned out true or have been shown to not be as ridiculous as initially thought, but they still get people canceled.
I'm a huge fan of capitalism but in this instance the powers that be seem to have bought the ability to debatably change history, in the name of the holy vax being the only option. If you explored other options for treatments that have been around forever and have minimal side effects you were labeled a kook and kicked off the internet.
Larry, your choice needs to be respected, same as the teacher who decides not to take the shot.
@doctorb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10176) seems you watch a lot of Fox News, might want to look at other news providers. ;D I know they haven't made a penny of advertising income off me for a long time.
Can't say that I watch a lot of Fox, or any other "news" network, but I do try and tune into different networks from time to time to try and get the flavor of different outlets. A lot of it makes me shake my head.
Quote from: aigheadish on July 20, 2021, 12:28:09 PMHydroxychloroquin (or however it's spelled) was mentioned as an option, therapeutically, turns out it kind of works...
aigheadish- I realize that the message from your post was about cancellation of controversial ideas or treatments. I understand the point of your post.
But diving into one of your examples....I can find no study, or group of studies, published in the medical literature with acceptable scientific methodology that demonstrate any efficacy using Hydrochloroquine to treat Covid-19. I can find plenty of better performed studies that agree that there is no real effect by taking hydrochloroquine for Covid-19. Just because non-scientific studies have been touted by certain news outlets does not make the drug effective or give any credence to the conspiracy theory surrounding its use.
And you may be right, cancellation of ideas is a big deal. But somewhere along the line we have to try to agree what is real and correct, and what is not. Hydrochloroquine as a treatment for Covid-19 has been rightly "cancelled." Not about free speech, in this instance. It's about what works and what doesn't.
Quote from: doctorb on July 20, 2021, 01:54:18 PM
Can’t say that I watch a lot of Fox, or any other “news” network, but I do try and tune into different networks from time to time to try and get the flavor of different outlets. A lot of it makes me shake my head.
Pick your flavour of BS basically. All of them take things out of context for their own “argument” lol
Posted in the Guardian:
"That is the beauty of being vaccinated," said another state representative, Gene Wu. "Every single person who has tested positive so far have little to no symptoms, which is the point of the vaccine. If nothing else, we want this to be a reminder to all Americans: get your stupid shot now."
[me] No one mentioned that. ;)
What was the percentage of completely asymptomatic cases last year?
Quote from: Southside on July 20, 2021, 03:59:12 PM
What was the percentage of completely asymptomatic cases last year?
Ouch. Takes the wind out of that new outlets story after I looked that up.
Quote from: Southside on July 20, 2021, 03:59:12 PM
What was the percentage of completely asymptomatic cases last year?
I've found numbers from 1.4% to 78%, depends what survey you read.
A summary of the various stats suggested around 30% of cases are asymptomatic. Recent cases here arrived on ships from overseas, and had infection rates around 90% of the crew, with ~90% of them reporting "flu like" symptoms. So a large % infected, and a large % with symptoms. Small sample size and all that, but it suggests the 78% asymptomatic number isn't accurate. as 15 out 17 report some symptoms.
But that's not really the point, it's not how many cases are mild, it's the 10% or so that end up in hospital or with long term after effects that matters more. Whatever % is infected and don't know it are just unwitting carriers, don't know they are infected, but can certainly pass it on to the folks that might be seriously affected. As they don't show symptoms, they don't know to isolate themselves, so are the highest risk of spreading the virus.
For me, i dont allow solicitation on my property. I say it 1 time, please leave, the next is not so nice. BUT, i agree, be it vaccination, which i will not be getting, or information on when/where for those not able to get to X location could be a good thing.