Smart Car (http://www.smartusa.com/smart-fortwo-pure.aspx)
Not really alternative in the sense of a different energy source, but alternative in the inexpensive and economical department. :D I've seen two of these around town. In Europe they put a turbo on them and they get almost 70mpg! Who is going to be the first Forum member to get one? ;D
Dave
Dave, it'll be someone else. I personally think they are hideous! ::)
One of our motoring programs made a report on the Smart Car and the consensus was, due to it's very short wheelbase, it had some very obscure handleing characteristics when cornering at speed. Primarily designed and built as an urban car.
Daily, I see quite a few here, so their popularity must be increasing. I think people are buying them for their 'safety cell' feature and fuel economy. Not very practical as a touring car for a family greater than two though!
We see them too. Seem to be a useful urban commuter but some apparently want them more for the funky factor. As Timburr said, handling would be scary at speed and I sure would not want to be in it in a wreck.
A buddy of mine took me along to check one out ( he'd put $99 down to "reserve" one ).
First off the US version has this tiny Mitsubishi ( ? ) * * gas * * engine that gets 3X mpg. Hardly any kind of award winning mpg. The EU or Canadian versions got ( turbo ? ) diesels so they could get 7X mpg.
They're small . Around town is about the only thing they seem to be good for - though I suspect a young'un could take a trip in one.
He got his money back - he'll be waiting for the next round of clean diesels ( EU has small Volvo wagons that get 70+ mpg and diesel vw's that get 50 - 70 mpg depending on model ) . Why Chevy and Ford can't do it is hard to tell.
I didn't realize the US versions had gas engines, big thumbs down on that idea. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( For only 30~ miles per gallon, you could buy a much bigger car that seats four. They've sold close to a million of the diesels so far, and it makes sense- 70mpg+ $12k, = cheap local commuter.
Dave
I just looked at the picture in that link. ............Where's the rest of it? :D
Why is it that we always seem to get the worst versions of every car here in the US? Instead of a cool turbo diesel, we get a gasser. The more I travel outside the US, the more I realize how much cooler (and smarter, and more efficient) everyone else's cars & trucks are. On my recent Japan trip, I saw TONS of cool diesel trucks and vans... from familiar names... Isuzu, Toyota, Nissan... why can't they import them here??
Let me guess... "the big three" have lobbyists that make sure this isn't done, right?... OK, so why can't Toyota, et al build some cool ones here in the US like they do with their cars?
-Norm.
There are many small diesels you can buy that get over forty MPG. Problem is they are available only in the rest of the world other than North America. The reason is not because of any conspiracy or oil companies blocking them from the US. It is simply because we or rather the EPA has chosen clean air over fuel economy and the ultra low sulfur emission regulations are preventing any of those very high mileage diesels from being sold in the US. The Volkswagon diesel just barely passed for this year and may be in trouble in the US for next year. :) :)
We passed a smart car at 75 m.p.h. on I95 around Richmond Va a couple of weeks ago, I said to my wife "that boy ain't right" :o It looked to me that not much would have to go wrong at that speed and the boy was dead.
Quote from: breederman on April 27, 2008, 07:04:43 PM
We passed a smart car at 75 m.p.h. on I95 around Richmond Va a couple of weeks ago, I said to my wife "that boy ain't right" :o It looked to me that not much would have to go wrong at that speed and the boy was dead.
Was he doing 75 and you passed him? :o He's not the only that's not right.
It was on I95 ;D Heck I passed him on the right. Sure am glad I don't get on those highways very often!
I suppose 75 ain't really that fast. I jsut hardly ever go that speed any more. Living out away from all the rush and hurry sure is nice. As far as that goes, I hardly drive at all any more. Lindy does most of the driving while I'm home.
That is nascar speed to me. I drive these hills all day every day for a living and hardly ever get up to 55.
I work for a Toyota affiliate, and I am frustrated by the fact that Toyota markets diesel vehicles in every country I have ever visited outside the U.S. But will not market them in the U.S. I would love to have a Toyota Hi Lux pickup (old Tacoma) with 4wd, 5 speed and diesel 4 cyl. (available in Kenya and El Salvador). Or a diesel Yaris (avaialble in U.K. and EU).
As I posted in a separate thread, why not a Hino 5 or 6 cyl diesel in the new Tundra ?
I am not generaly a conspiracy theorist. But something ain't right...
Warren
toyata marketed a diesel PU here about 20 years ago. My dad had one. Good engine but the transmisssion weren't so great.
The TD version has a top speed of 90mph! :o I wouldn't want to venture out onto the highway with it, but ugly or not, it's cheap transportation. I don't like commuting in a 3/4 ton gas sucking gutless pig. ;)
Dave
QuoteI don't like commuting in a 3/4 ton gas sucking gutless pig.
Me either, but I wouldn't like running around in 1/2 of a car either. :D
It'll look just fine with two Arky Super Sticks from LogRite in the ski rack! ;) (Which are longer than the car, by the way.)
Dave
Now I'm sure not a rocket scientist but let me see if I got this epa thing down right.
A Hummer [1,2,3] can get say 15 mpg and let's say thats 100 units of pollution for that gallon.
A diesel has 150 units of pollution ( way too much - probably only 15% higher than gas ) but gets 45 mpg.
So if they both drive 45 miles
the gasser puts out 300 units of pollution
and the diesel puts out 150
hmmmmm methinks the EPA is worried about the pollution per gallon and not the pollution per mile ???
Guess they know what they're doin - wish I could figure it out . . .
I believe it is particulates that they are after with the diesels. Ever see someone stand on the throttle on an old Mack? That's particulate matter. :D
Dave
Bill, that is called qualitative verses quantitative analysis. I never did understand why the government uses that method when measuring the polution from a vehicle. I think that part of the reason we don't see more high MPG small cars sold here in the U S of A.
Quote from: Warren on April 27, 2008, 08:42:52 PM
But will not market them in the U.S.
Tundra wil be available with a diesel engine soon.
Sorry, I can't cite the article where I read this.
But, just remember Ron's post of what we get from a barrel of crude:
Finished Motor Gasoline 51.4%
Distillate Fuel Oil 15.3%
Jet Fuel 12.3%
Still Gas 5.4%
Marketable Coke 5.0%
Residual Fuel Oil 3.3%
Add more diesel vehicles and the price of diesel fuel will go up even faster.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on April 27, 2008, 09:34:29 PM
I believe it is particulates that they are after with the diesels. Ever see someone stand on the throttle on an old Mack? That's particulate matter. :D
You are correct, but the means to achieve lower particulate emissions requires the highly refined and cleaner burning ULSD as the higher sulfur distilates will contaminate the clean burn and special exhaust filtering systems on these new diesel engines.
Quote from: DouginUtah on April 27, 2008, 10:40:53 PM
But, just remember Ron's post of what we get from a barrel of crude:
Finished Motor Gasoline 51.4%
Distillate Fuel Oil 15.3%
Jet Fuel 12.3%
Still Gas 5.4%
Marketable Coke 5.0%
Residual Fuel Oil 3.3%
Add more diesel vehicles and the price of diesel fuel will go up even faster.
These are not fixed yields by any means. Recent numbers show the gasoline yields running at 44-47 % and distilate fuel oil yields between 26-27 %.
In fact there is a new method of distillation called "hydrocracking" that can be used to increase the yield of distilates. Hydrocracking equipment is now being used more in the EU refineries because they now are using more diesel than gasoline and shipping the surplus gasoline to the US because there are not as many light vehicles with diesels in this country.
Even back in 2005 about half of the light duty vehicles being purchased in the EU were diesels. The EU also has low sulfur regulations but I do not know why those same diesels will not pass EPA regulations for particulate emissions in the US. Perhaps the EU regulations are not quite as strict.
For every thing you want to know about energy, check out this site: http://www.eia.doe.gov/ (http://www.eia.doe.gov/)
Gary_C,
I'm either confused, or I just don't buy it...
I had been told the reason we don't have many EU diesel vehicles here is because... until just a few months ago, we didn't have ultra low sulphur diesel here, so the catalytic exhausts on the EU diesels would get clogged with the soot from our "dirty" diesel fuel. Now that we have ULSD here, this shouldn't be a problem. So it wasn't really that the EU cars wouldn't meet our emissions standards, it's that our diesel wouldn't meet their exhaust system standards?
The other part is, how can all these diesel vehicles from other countries not pass our emissions tests, yet like Dave mentioned, all our old Macks chug black smoke like a steam train? I own a couple of old sooty GM diesels myself, and in my travels to Italy, Germany and Japan, I've ridden in a lot of diesels, and NONE of them smell or look 1/4 as bad as the the exhaust from a typical American diesel school bus. Now Mexico... that's a different story! Not many small diesels there, all the big trucks smoke like a Mack, and 1/2 the gas cars smell bad, too. I think it's directly related to the number of tune-ups done... little to none?
-Norm.
Americans are SPOILED :) :) :) :) :)
When I bought a wrecked Caddy Diesel, my first wife said there was NO WAY she would drive that NOISY thing. Ed and I worked it over, got it inspected, and proceeded to get 37 MPG. Wife drove it once, and, that was HER car. :o :o
Women can't stand noisy diesels. (Farm Wimmenses is a different matter). ;) ;D
Diesels are NOT "Shot" outta the hole, like Dragsters, beating everyone else to the next stoplight. Diesels are NOT "instant start". Have to actually wait a few seconds for the glowplugs to heat the chambers. ::) ::) (Brand new ones may be instant start).
Down here, they are EVERYWHERE. Problem is, price is high. It's the preferred engine
in pickups, of most farmers.
Norm
I guess I am not very clear on my understanding of that either. Apparently the EU has been ahead of the US in requiring ULSD and so if they imported those diesel cars the emission systems would fail because of contamination from the higher sulfur content fuel. That was up until the 2007 model year as the USLD rules went into effect in September of 2007. This is all according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel) if they are right.
Perhaps we are now going to see some of those EU diesel cars in the US. 8)
I was just talking to the owner of the local International truck dealership and he is still very leary of the new low emission heavy truck engines that were required with this model year. He told me they have some kind of glass ceramic filter on the exhaust. I know the large fleet truck operators bought new trucks for some years ahead to avoid having to buy this new technology, but remember this only applies to heavy truck engines. Apparently the light duty diesel engine technology is better developed in the EU.
Stormin, the old trucks aren't subject to current emissions standards, that's why they are still chugging. I believe in Mass they have to be 40% opaque, or less, which is a lot of soot.
My former boss just took delivery of a 2008 Navister twin screw with a CAT. Apparently if you ignore the little light telling you to regen the exhaust, it'll shut down the power output and let you coast to the side of the road while it does the regen for you. :-\
Dave
Quote from: Gary_C on April 28, 2008, 01:58:58 AM
The EU also has low sulfur regulations but I do not know why those same diesels will not pass EPA regulations for particulate emissions in the US. Perhaps the EU regulations are not quite as strict.
The EU allows more Particulate. They do not need the exhaust filters.
Which is what most makers are struggling with to make the regen function work right.
Nothing like burning more fuel to clean a filter. ???
Back to the topic of the thread...
I test drove a Smart Car today. It did not handle or ride as goofy as it looks. The ride reminded me of your typical small german auto - most similar to a VW or older 911 / 914 Porsche. The performance wasn't bad.
What was really interesting was the shifting. It seems as if the car has some type of centrifugal clutch and a standard transmission, but it's packaged like an automatic (no clutch pedal). The car will automatically reduce RPM's when shifting, and you can tell that it's a standard type of transmission. Very different.
From inside, the car did not feel as small as it looks on the outside. The cab is relatively roomy; two wide-shouldered adults can sit comfortably without rubbing elbows. The turning radius is great.
There's just about zero storage space for anything of size though.
My opinion of the car is that it would make an excellent urban vehicle or commuter car for someone that did not need to transport much baggage. Would also make a good vehicle choice for a teenager or college student; the lack of being able to take more than one person with them is a plus, and it has a 4 start front crash rating and a 5 star side crash rating (lots of air bags). They would also probably be a good choice for a senior citizen, and they are not that expensive.
Wait time to receive one is somewhere between 3 - 6 months.
According to the sales rep that I spoke with, they are designed and produced by Mercedes Benz, and the service in the US will be provided by MB as well. Service intervals are every 10K miles or so.
The sales rep also stated that they had been sold for almost 10 years in Europe.
They are different - but I can see a place for them. Unfortunately, not a good choice for a farm vehicle...
On a side note, after waiting for months trying to find a new, imported diesel SUV/truck that gets great mileage (50mpg or better), I gave up for now and bought a Prius.. 45mpg is hard to pass up, especially when considering that between the wife's Diesel Excursion and my F450, I anticipate that we'll spend over 14K on diesel this year (and I can't run B100 in either of them).
Well, actually I'm going to lease the Prius for three years and then hopefully there will be some good diesel options available in the US. Considering the lease price plus the fuel price, if we can reduce driving our trucks by 50% we'll break even. For every additional 10% shift between the trucks and the Prius, we'll be about $700.00 ahead.
Scott
You won't just save in fuel costs, that's a lot of rubber and oil changes in those two trucks, plus devaluation due to mileage. What did the dealer say about fuel economy in the Smart Car?
Dave
Quote from: DouginUtah on April 27, 2008, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: Warren on April 27, 2008, 08:42:52 PM
But will not market them in the U.S.
Tundra wil be available with a diesel engine soon.
Sorry, I can't cite the article where I read this.
I have "heard" that there will be a diesel in the Tundra. But I have never seen anything to substantiate the talk.
A friend of mine is a died in the wool Cummins man. He has been driving a '97 or '98 W2500 100 miles per day since new. Over 250K miles and still cranking. Sunday night, he showed up at church driving a new Ford Focus. Said that in the 3 weeks the savings in fuel cost are already offsetting the cost of the car.
Warren
Quote from: Dave Shepard on April 28, 2008, 08:45:41 PM
You won't just save in fuel costs, that's a lot of rubber and oil changes in those two trucks, plus devaluation due to mileage. What did the dealer say about fuel economy in the Smart Car?
Dave
Dave, as I recall, somewhere in the high 30's / low 40's.
Smart cars have been around for about 5 years in Canada, one guy in my cubicle farm had one. Rides fine, he takes it on the highway no trouble except when there are 35-50 mph side winds. Its diesel, gets great mileage, he'd take his backpacking camping gear, gf and dog with him on trips. He'd take his scuba gear when he went diving but it had to sit in the passenger seat.
The thing was really zippy, had more hp than the 4 passenger car I had, way faster off the line than any of the sedans in the office. Packing was a snap, you just drive nose first into the curb and the butt doesn't stick out at all.
Ken
Slowzuki,
The first time I saw a Smart car was in Paris a couple of winters ago, and it was parked just like you say... perpendicular to the curb! It struck me funny enough at the time that I took a picture.
I wonder why Canada can get the turbo diesel Smart, but we can't? According to the Smart car international web site (http://www.smart.com) the diesel in Germany gets 3.31 Liters per 100km... so if my math is right, that's about 71 mpg!
I heard that Swatch (the watch company) originally designed the car, and wanted it to be all-electric... but the battery technology wasn't there however many years ago, so Mercedes bought the design from them and started manufacturing them as diesel and gas.
Since then, I heard some rumors about an all-electric version of the Smart car in the works, with lithium-ion batteries... there have even been some converted aftermarket by a firm called Hybrid Technologies... they are not cheap, however.
MSN article (http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=440939)
Hybrid Technologies web site (http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/)
-Norm.
I saw my first one today at the local supermarket. It looked pretty small, and I bet there are a lot of people in my town that won't fit inside of it. ;)
Somewhere on YouTube is a video of crash testing the little jewels. It is amazing how well the thing protects the occupants.
I am waiting for a diesel/electric hybrid. :)
My good friend Don Mclachlan bought one 4 years ago. Don's a mechanic by trade, and makes his living buying out-of-lease cars and trucks and selling them at a fair price (an honest used-car salesman!). He's also an authorized service rep for Smart cars. By the way, the model is the Smart "fortwo" ;D. Here's some facts:
He gets 90 miles per imperial gallon -- about 75 per US gallon -- with an equal mix of city and highway driving (he's got a diesel).
He has not found a highway in B.C. where he cannot maintain the speed limit, even up the really steephills.
Winter driving is not a problem -- this is snow country where we live.
I've been in his car, and you'd swear it was bigger inside than out.
The body panels snap off and can be purchased separately in a variety of colours -- change the colour of your car when you get bored ;D.
One reason they handle so well is that they're a mid-engine car, the same configuration as most racing cars. And that engine is right down at the bottom of the car.
Barb and I are seriously considering one for our next car purchase. Most of the time it'll accomodate our needs just fine. I've told Don I'd buy one if it came with a trailer for those rare times that we need to carry a bigger load. He's just discovered they sell a trailer hitch for it in Europe, and you can connect a motorcylce trailer to it.
As for gas in the U.S., versus diesel in Canada, here's the story Don gave me. The manufacturer did a lot of research before trying to market them in North America. The consultants survey's showed that Americans would simply not want to buy them, but Canadians would. So they started selling the high-mileage diesels in Canada. After about 4 years of this, Roger Penske decided the US was ready for this type of vehicle, so undertook to import them himself. However, he figured the high price tag of the diesel would put many people off, so he only imported the gas powered version (which gets much lower mileage).
Here's the Smart car I'm gonna get. :o :o :o
8) 8) 8) 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQIizRp9ck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQIizRp9ck)
Ed
Wouldn't bother me to buy one and drive it, I got over vehical appearances long ago. If my 6 foot 7 inch frame is comfortable, the mechanics are solid and reliable, can handle a bit of snow/ice, and alot of rain I'm happy.
I have a 07 prius I bought jan 02 07 and I'm very happy with it, I drive it 150 miles a day and average 51 miles a gallon or 515 +/- per 10 gallons. The only trouble I've had with the car is the passenger wiper arm (which is a bad design) which developed a squeek due to bad lubracation and stress on the bushings. I made some bushings on my lathe from high quality pre lubed brass stock and fixed that issue myself.
I make my passengers wipe themselves. :D
Wonder if I could buy one in Canada, bring it into the US and use it for my daily 60 mile commute??????????? The F250 SD diesel is killing me.
Bruce
I would imagine you could buy on here and take it back, after all Canadians can purchase some car models in the states and bring them back (after going through some gov't redtape). Don't see why it can't work both ways.
Actually, there is a lot of red tape.
For example:
You can rent a car in the US and drive into Canada (if the rental agent allows it) but you can not rent a car in Canada and drive it into the US.
All has to do with NAFTA if I'm recalling correctly.
So I'd look real carefully at the rules before putting $ down on one.
There's a catch when it comes to importing diesel Smart cars to the U.S.
The diesel engine uses a very special synthetic engine oil. If you put any other kind of oil in the engine, you'll trash it. So the engine is designed so you or your average mechanic cannot change the oil. You need special equipment and special training to service the engine.
In Canada, all Mercedes dealers can do the service. There are also independent dealers (such as my friend Don) who are trained and equiped to do the service.
Check very carefully before you buy.
There's also a Smart Forfour available in Europe, but sadly not in Canada. Maybe one of these days ...
Always a catch for weekend mechanics and simple maintenance. >:(
Sounds like we need to talk to Penske. ;) Although I bet the current U.S. diesel emissions also played a part in that decision.
Dave
Maybe this link will answer some questions.
Thislink] (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/4301033842?r=4301033842#4301033842)
Like many others, I don't understand why they won't offer the Smart Car Diesel in the United States. I have heard that somewhere near 60% of the cars in Europe are diesels. We rented a BMW Diesel when we were there in 2005 and loved it. It was quiet and had lots of zip.
Now back to the Smart Car. A friend in Hamburg has one. She gets well over 70 mpg and enjoys the car - especially since parking is a real problem where she lives. However, she would not take it on the autobahn - too light in her opinion.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned on this thread is the Smart Car Sports model. We saw one in Berlin in 2006 and it looked very nice. And like others have said, yes, you can park them heading into the curb.
In summary, if you commute in a crowded city environment this might be a good choice for you. In my case, I drive nearly 40 miles one way to work on the interstate and I wouldn't want to trust the size of this car.
I got to see a "Smart Car" for the first time yesterday.
Interesting vehicle. :)
I had a 20" Schwinn one time. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10026/tom-parade-bike.jpg)
I'll bet got good mileage, too, Tom. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FokorVaisRQ
The smart car VS a concrete wall.
It survived fairly well, a real driver would have been killed, but the doors still opened making it easier to remove your body. :D
Ian
I never tried that with my bike. :-\ :D
C'mon Tom.
Ya never put a 12' 2x6 across a ditch and tried to use it as a short-cut on the bike, goin to the house? Didn't work...!!
Ditch was about 5' deep, and the bike made it about half way across...then took a nose dive with me right behind it. Lots of rock and dirt ground inta da skin for a facial, of sorts. ::) ::) :D
Yeah, I used to ride boards a lot, when I could find a board. Favorite fun was to get going down the driveway and around the house as fast as I could and then slam on the brakes when I reached the dirt under the Oak tree. The bike would slide and turn and end up going sideways before it stopped. What was the fun part? It was to see who could leave the longest skid mark. :D
Quote from: Tom on May 08, 2008, 03:47:07 PM
Yeah, I used to ride boards a lot, when I could find a board. Favorite fun was to get going down the driveway and around the house as fast as I could and then slam on the brakes when I reached the dirt under the Oak tree. The bike would slide and turn and end up going sideways before it stopped. What was the fun part? It was to see who could leave the longest skid mark. :D
Yep, on gravel roads we did that too...then graduated to cars. ::) ::)
Not just the longest skid, but as many or as much of a rotation as possible. :)
link (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/429605551/m/4301089842?r=4301089842#4301089842)
I find it interesting that whenever a car of this type, i.e. low cost, tiny, and fuel efficient, the first two comments are about looks/image, or how well it will hold up in a cross country demolition derby at 100 mph. Then people talk about how much they like their motorcycles. ::) >:(
I think that a car of this type, while not ideally suited for freeway traffic, serves a desperate need anywhere people commute on anything other than a camel. I drive a 3/4 ton gas pickup. It's all I have until I can fix my personal diesel 3/4 ton truck, which will get a little better mileage. I do many things that require a truck, like move my backhoe. I also do a lot of things that don't, like scoot to town for pizza. food6 I wouldn't want to give up the pickup entirely, but it wouldn't take too long to pay off a car like the Smart fortwo just in fuel and tires. Using the last mileage numbers for when I was in business, and adjusting for current fuel costs, supplementing with a Smart would save at least $4800 per year in fuel, oil changes, and tires.
I think the people worried about their image should research the miles per pound of oats the average plow horse gets. ;) :D
Dave
Quote from: Tom on May 08, 2008, 03:47:07 PM
... It was to see who could leave the longest skid mark. :D
I think I won but never could be sure since I didn't want to drop my drawers to measure the mark...
I'll add somemore to get this of topic that much more. :D Growing up I was not allowed anything with a motor.Good thing too.I actually broke a bike in two pieces.I went to a friends house and we was tearing down an old building.One of us found out that we could lay a alpaht shingle on the tar road and hit the brakes on the shingle and that would lay a nice black mark with no wear and tear on out tires.I put a slick tire on the back of one of my bikes.That thing would really squeal when you slammed the breaks on.That tire did not last long. ::)
Quote from: Dave Shepard on May 08, 2008, 10:18:38 PM
I find it interesting that whenever a car of this type, i.e. low cost, tiny, and fuel efficient, the first two comments are about looks/image, or how well it will hold up in a cross country demolition derby at 100 mph. Then people talk about how much they like their motorcycles. ::) >:(
I think that a car of this type, while not ideally suited for freeway traffic, serves a desperate need anywhere people commute on anything other than a camel. I drive a 3/4 ton gas pickup. It's all I have until I can fix my personal diesel 3/4 ton truck, which will get a little better mileage. I do many things that require a truck, like move my backhoe. I also do a lot of things that don't, like scoot to town for pizza. food6 I wouldn't want to give up the pickup entirely, but it wouldn't take too long to pay off a car like the Smart fortwo just in fuel and tires. Using the last mileage numbers for when I was in business, and adjusting for current fuel costs, supplementing with a Smart would save at least $4800 per year in fuel, oil changes, and tires.
I think the people worried about their image should research the miles per pound of oats the average plow horse gets. ;) :D
Dave
I no longer care what my car looks like, If I fit in it, I'll drive it. Personal tastes are changing slow but sure as economics make certain tastes unobtainable for most of us.
Things have been happening around here.
- Last week my 14-year-old Cavalier developed a $1000+ repair problem.
- Diesel Smart Cars are no longer being sold in Canada -- they're going to sell the same gas-powered version in Canada and the U.S. (and the gas version has lower mileage).
Don has a used Smart coupe on his lot.
I was planning to replace the Cavalier next year with something quite a bit more fuel-efficient -- it only gets 36 MPG (30 MPG US). But looking at that kind of repair bill, I decided it was time to make a decision.
Will the Smart fortwo work for us? If so, buy it now. If not, fix the DanGed Cavalier one more time, and start researching other fuel-efficient cars for next year.
On Tuesday I was 4th on Don's waiting list. By Thusday #1 had put off buying ('cause there might be a strike at her workplace), #2 wasn't replying to phone messages, and #3 was suddenly having second thoughts. Don suggested we take the car home overnight and give it a serious test.
Barb liked the
idea of the car, but really didn't think it had enough space for our needs. When we went to pick it up, she realized it had a lot more room behind the seats than she thought. When she came back from her "training run", she had a big grin on her face. On the way home with the car, she was already rationalizing around the few situations where we'd need a bigger car.
This is from a woman who hates trying out new cars, and sees them as a necessary evil at best.
Here's a random selection of impressions.
A
whole lot more passenger space inside than you'd think. A hefty six-foot plus driver will have lots of room. There's room for a couple of big suitcases behind the seats -- or a fairly large dog. Barb has two artificial knees and has to position herself "just so" to get in and out of our Cavalier, or any similar car. It's not much better when she has to climb into a bigger vehicle like our truck or an SUV. But she just stepped right into the Smart and sat down (and then realized she'd done it ;D).
Amazingly easy to drive. Very intuitive steering, nice feel to the brakes.
Shifting gears took a little getting used to at first, hence the "training run" with the salesman. Standard or automatic? "Yes", or "both", or for people who still don't quite get it, "It's a semi-automatic." Actually, it's got a 6-speed manual transmission, but there's no clutch pedal. You can operate in "manual", where you select the gear you want to be in, or you can set it to "automatic" mode, where it behaves like a conventional automatic transmission.
However, even in manual mode the car won't let you do something stupid (like downshifting when your rev's are already way up there).
The body is plastic panels attached to a steel "cage". Want to change the colour of your car? You can buy a complete set of panels for about $1500. It comes in a box that two people can easily carry. And it takes about 3 hours in a properly equiped shop to change the panels.
The car is full of nice little touches. For us folks with serious winters, you don't have to wait for the engine to warm up before the heat comes on. There's an electric heater in the air duct that will provide instant warm air while the engine gets up to temperature.
There's no sunroof, put there's a window in the top -- along with a sliding panel that you can position to keep the sun off the top of your head.
Ground clearance -- now that's an issue for me. I have a quarter-mile driveway composed of dirt and/or mud, with some good sized rocks thrown in. No problem -- the Smart has 15" wheels and a belly pan.
Safety. Well, you saw the 70 MPH crash. Think about it for a minute. How many times have
you been in a serious, high speed crash? A small car doesn't
attract bigger vehicles. Maybe it doesn't worry me, because I grew up driving a Mini, and my first new car was an early Honda Civic. In any case, I saw the photos they took of Don's car when they were changing all the body panels. That's one heft safety cage.
I'll shut up now. If you've got any specific questions, fire away.
Oh, yeah. We decided. Just gotta arrange the financing and the car is ours. Anyone wanna buy a slightly rusty Cavalier that needs a new head gasket?
Quote from: Brucer on May 12, 2008, 02:11:39 AM
Oh, yeah. We decided. Just gotta arrange the financing and the car is ours. Anyone wanna buy a slightly rusty Cavalier that needs a new head gasket?
No ::), but I do want to be able to buy what you're buying :) :-\
I was changing my serpentine belt on my 03 Ford Powerstroke a couple months ago. I used the diagram sticker under hood to replace correctly. The sticker contained diagrams for all different engine sizes. There was one for a 4.2 L diesel.
I thought , wow, never heard of that one. Did some research, turns out they are sold in S. Africa on 1/4 and 1/2 ton models!! They get between 45 - 70 mpg!!! Man, are we Americans gettin hosed!! It's a disgrace. These EPA regulations create more fuel shortages than anyone. How much farther off is our clean air when you have to burn more fuel.
Social Issues
You gotta have some quick comebacks saved up for those smart aleck big-car-drivers. Here's a few ...
During my test drive, waiting to make a left turn at a stoplight. Guy pulls up beside us in an F350 diesel 4x4, looks down and says, "That car's smaller than my engine compartment. Sorry, man, but I need to drive a real car." My comeback line: "Hey, the amount of fuel you burn getting to the next light will take me half way to Vancouver (200 miles)."
Last year Don was filling up his Smart at the gas bar next to his dealership. Guy walks past, having just paid his bill at the kiosk. Nods at Don and says, "Electric car, eh?" Don's comeback line: "Yep, I'm just topping it up with a few move volts." The guy stopped, smacked himself on the forehead, and said, "I can't believe I just said that. I sure hope my wife didn't hear me." Then a female voice came drifting out of the guy's Suburban, "I heard it alright, you idiot."
;D
Quote from: Toolman on May 12, 2008, 01:51:36 PM
I was changing my serpentine belt on my 03 Ford Powerstroke a couple months ago. I used the diagram sticker under hood to replace correctly. The sticker contained diagrams for all different engine sizes. There was one for a 4.2 L diesel.
I thought , wow, never heard of that one. Did some research, turns out they are sold in S. Africa on 1/4 and 1/2 ton models!! They get between 45 - 70 mpg!!! Man, are we Americans gettin hosed!! It's a disgrace. These EPA regulations create more fuel shortages than anyone. How much farther off is our clean air when you have to burn more fuel.
Amen. and why can't ford and chevy do it here ? Seems they need to certify the engines anyways - and the pollution per mile ought to be the criteria not something else.
leastways my $0.02
As of 5:00 PM today, Barb and I own a 2005 Smart fortwo and the Cavalier is somebody else's problem :).
We were walking out of the dealership, Barb in front, me with the keys in my hand, when Don says casually, "So who gets to drive it home." Barb stuck her hand behind her back, palm up, and wiggled her fingers for the keys. First time I ever saw that woman take to a car like that ;D.
I find there's a certain context to things people say, and it's fun to watch their reaction when you don't quite fit into their perceptions. For example, a conversation I had today ...
"What car did you say you got?"
"It's a Smart."
"Oh, yeah, isn't that some kind of Chevy?"
"Nope, it's made by Mercedes"
"Oh ... so what kinda engine's it got?"
"It's a point 8 litre turbo diesel."
Then there's a pause, while the guy is trying to put together the "turbo diesel" and the "point 8 litre" (that's 49 cubic inches for you folks in the US of A). 'Cause he's associating "turbo diesel" with 6.2 litres and things just aren't coming together for him.
Barb filled it up on the way home. 14.9 litres (just under 5 US gallons). "That didn't take much," said the attendent. "Naw," said Barb, "it was already a quarter full."
Now I'll see how far I get before the next fill up.
Sounds like an great little commuter car.
Heck, one time I had a 1100cc diesel (no turbo) Daihatsu loaner while my work car was being fixed. Crazy underpowered.. I drove for 15min with the pedal flat to the boards before I found it had a speed alarm at 65 ;D. OK some of it was uphill, but not the whole way.
I suspect it was the same engine Mahoe use in their sawmills. ::)
But after 2 days I could get the speed alarm after 5 mins, I guess the engine just needed freeing up ;)
But seriously, 90% of the time a car like that would do me to get to work. As a second car in the house it's 99%.
Smart move 8)
Ian
Congrats, Brucer.
Sure wish we could buy that car with the diesel here in the good ole US of A. :-\
Quote from: OneWithWood on May 17, 2008, 09:07:31 PM
Congrats, Brucer.
Sure wish we could buy that car with the diesel here in the good ole US of A. :-\
Me too! Unfortunately, it sounds like they're pulling the diesel out of Canada as well. I wonder why?
John Mc
Maybe the same reason they are not going to have the diesel in the Jeep Liberty anymore.... it was a good idea.
Congrats Brucer - wisht they had the diesel version down here.
and I agree - it'd be too good of an idea.
Latest I heard - and that makes me guilty of repeating "gossip" - is that the enviro folks say diesel exhaust has particulates and they're bad for you - like there's nothing in gas cars exhaust that wouldn't kill you !
I like that line where the guy in the movie says " Follow the money . . . "
Oh - almost forgot - the other side of the particulate coin I heard was that at least the particulates fall out of the air where as the " gassers " exhaust stays in the atmosphere to cause all sorts of bad things ( like smog and such ) .
Particulates reflect sunlight and reduce the greenhouse effect. Maybe all we need is a few more diesels on the road and we'll have this global warming thing licked ;D. Seriously, though, I would buy one of those diesel Smarts in a heartbeat if they offered them in the U.S. I could drive it 95% of the time and buy an old pickup to use if I ever needed to haul something.
I'd buy one tomorrow if they offered the diesel in the US... assuming they didn't modify it for the US market it by putting in a larger engine and otherwise monkeying around with it to screw up the great mileage they supposedly get with the diesel version sold in Europe.
I keep reading about the high mpg diesels over in Europe. I don't see them in this country. I'm gettin fed up with our Federal government regulations. The EPA is spending way too much time regulating emissions. If they regulated the COMPLETE combustion of fuel in an engine, there would be no need for cat converters, smog pumps, EGR systems and other silly gadgets they add to vehicles that rob you of power and actually decrease fuel economy. I have an 03 Ford 6.0 PS diesel pickup. Now listen to this! There is a diesel mechanic in our are that patented an EGR delete kit for the 6.0 l . I bought vehicle with 19,000 miles on it. I would get 18mpg hwy 15 city. I had him delete EGR. My mileage went up to 21mpg hwy 18mpg city. I added a fuel warmer device that I bought from Brightgreen.us. My fuel line runs through a heat exchanger that warms fuel by using heated coolant from top radiator hose. UNBELIEVABLE RESULTS!! Lou LaPointe, a retired fuel chemist is a genius. I now get 24 mpg hwy, 20 mpg city. Read Brightgreen.us web site. This guy has good info. I spoke with him on phone numerous times with questions. He is a darn good guy. If a dummy like me can get this economy, why can't Detroit and EPA produce the same. I use acetone in my fuel and synthetic motor oil to add lubricancy to this low sulfur diesel fuel. I submitted report to my local congressman, Todd Platts, he admitted to me over phone that there is a real problem in this country concerning fuel standards, etc. I now have 98,000 miles on my truck, no problems with excellent fuel efficiency for it's size. I'm fed up with the corruption in our government. I plead with you all to contact your state and Federal representatives and complain, complain and complain. Check their voting records, ask them questions, put em on the spot!! Don't be afraid to tell them they are dead wrong. That's your right, by god use it! You put them in office, you can put them out of office. Please read Brightgreen.us, he is non-profit. He shares good info. on fuel economy and politics of the Oil industry. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Early market research showed Canadians would go for the high mileage, but Americans wouldn't be seen in a car that small. So the diesel-powered Smart came to Canada around the end of 2004.
Not too long afterward Roger Penske began negotiating to bring the Smart to the US (with his organization being the exclusive distributer). However, he figured Americans would still want a higher performance car, so he arranged to bring in the cheaper gas-powered version. It's got about 60% more power, along with higher fuel consumption.
Now Smart Canada is only going sell the gas version in Canada. I don't know if they're worried about Canadians buying the cheaper vehicle in the US, or if it's just cheaper to bring just the one model to North America.
If you're interested, but not quite ready to buy, why not try one out this year. Then, if you like it, tell them you'd consider buying one if it came in the more fuel-efficient diesel version.
Random experiences:
Don't lose your key! This was a leased car and it only arrived with one key. The replacement procedure involves:
- proving I actually own the car -- fax a copy of the registration papers
- proving I'm me -- fax a copy of my driver's license
- prepay for a new key -- give them a credit card number
- wait 2 weeks for a key to be programmed
- make a 4-hour (one-way) drive to the dealer so they can program the car to accept the new key (and also de-program it so it will no longer accept the missing key).
The new key costs $280, and the dealer charges $60 to re-program the car :(
Another silly reaction. Guy who used to work for my customer (and knows what I do for a living) saw the car and said, "So you finally replaced your truck!" My response,
"Yep, you'd never guess a car that small could pull a 3500 pound sawmill around." ;D
I can't believe it. Barb is talking to people about -- cars ??? This is a woman who isn't interested in cars. Thinks they're boring, a necessary evil. Actually, I think she gets a kick out of having something really different to drive.
Several of our friends have knee problems. Barb's got two artificial knees for that matter.
everyone finds the car easy to get into and out of.
It's got a pretty neat seat design. Basically it slides at an angle. When a short person pulls the seat forward, it also rises up, giving him or her a better view of the road. When a tall person pushes the seat back, it sinks down, giving the tall driver more headroom.
People have suddenly clued into the fact that you can't buy new diesel Smart cars in Canada anymore. I could easily sell this car for $2000 more than I paid for it.
I took a couple of pictures of the car parked next to my truck -- I'll post 'em as soon as my daughter figures out how to get them off her camera into my computer.
The side of the car is all door, no wonder it's easy to get into. :D I hate having to go anywhere in my fathers car. I almost have to take a running leap and wiggle sideways at the last minute. Sure puts the ick! in Buick!
Dave
So I've got a few questions. I don't want to sound confrontational, so please do not take it that way. I am starting to think about what our next car will be, even though it is a long way off, God willing.
From the tech specs on that car I got the following:
"Recommended fuel premium unleaded gasoline (min 91 octane)"
and
"City/highway (mpg) 40/45 (EPA 2007); 33/41 (EPA 2008)"
First off... why the "minimum" 91 octane fuel? Do you know how much extra that costs here in Alaska?
Secondly, why the difference in MPG from 2007 to 2008? 33 MPG in the city is pretty good but not quit double what my car gets.
Thirdly, they claim the car costs around $10,000 to $11,000. Is that what it is actually going for at the dealer? Even if it really is going for $10k, I still can't justify that cost when my current vehicle is bought and paid for. See, I don't do a lot of driving compared to the average American. We are already conservatives in how we drive, car pooling, etc. So for the number of miles I drive, even consuming 12 - 15 MPG less, $10k is a *lot* of money.
*edit* Couple more I just thought of...
Forthly, is there any documentation on how those cars work in extremely cold environments? It is a huge problem with hybrid type cars (ie. they suck up here), so I'm curious how this one performs. Does it stay warm in the cab at -50 F? Does it even continue running at -50 F? What happens to its fuel mileage at extreme temperatures? What is its real gas mileage running on oxygenated fuel?
Fifthly, can you haul 2 people and enough groceries to feed a family of four for a month in it? We often buy bulk to save money. From the photos, I can't tell how much real storage the vehicles has.
*edit 2*
Last one, I promise. :)
Sixthly, is there any indication yet on how well the car is engineered? How long does it last? How easily repairable is it? Can you do it yourself or do you have to get the car to a dealership 200 miles away and pay exorbitant prices to get it fixed? How much do replacement parts cost? Are replacement parts readily available?
Quote from: Warbird on May 31, 2008, 01:14:35 PM
"City/highway (mpg) 40/45 (EPA 2007); 33/41 (EPA 2008)"
...
why the difference in MPG from 2007 to 2008?
Most likely it's due to the fact the the EPA tightened the standards recently for how MPG is calculated to make it more realistic. You'll probably notice the drop across the board on all automakers, even those who made no changes to the car in question.
QuoteForthly, is there any documentation on how those cars work in extremely cold environments? It is a huge problem with hybrid type cars (ie. they suck up here), so I'm curious how this one performs. Does it stay warm in the cab at -50 F? Does it even continue running at -50 F? What happens to its fuel mileage at extreme temperatures?
I can't help on the cold weather info, but this car is not a hybrid.
Still wishing they'd sell the diesel in the US (and without ruining it first by upping the engine size or similar "for the american market").
John Mc
Thanks John. I know it is not a hybrid but it is still different enough from a 'normal' car that I thought to ask the question. I hear you about the 'american market' stuff.
Another question might be, "can a hitch be installed to pull a small trailer for groceries that don't fit the car".
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2008, 06:13:46 PM
Another question might be, "can a hitch be installed to pull a small trailer for groceries that don't fit the car".
Only if you wanna get out and push? :D j/k.
I'm waiting for the SmartStretch limousine. :D :D
It would be huge, maybe even as big as a Civic. :D :D
Dave
Last time I was in Cozumel, saw a 150 Honda MC with a ball hitch added on the back. Heard they passed a law so only 3 people could ride on a motor cycle.
Quote from: Warbird on May 31, 2008, 01:14:35 PM
So I've got a few questions. I don't want to sound confrontational, so please do not take it that way.
Nothing confrontational in your post, Warbird. I did a lot of questioning and pondering before I bought mine. It won't be a good choice for everyone, that's for sure. To answer some of your questions ...
I'd guess "minimum" 91 octane fuel is to deal with a higher compression engine. More power in a smaller package.
I expect $10,000 to $11,000 is in the ballpark for the bare-bones version. When the diesels first appeared in Canada, the difference between the bare-bones model and the "loaded" model was about $6000. I certainly wouldn't have given up my Cavalier simply to buy a Smart. It was strictly a case of the 14-year-old Cavalier giving up on me, with the Smart as something I'd been thinking about for 3 years.
I can't tell you about performance at -50 F. What I
can tell you is that Don's diesel ran fine when the temperature dropped to -25 C (-13 F). The car was clearly made for cold winters. Glow plugs on the diesel, rear-window defroster, special rapid defrost position on the fan are all standard. There's also several cold-weather options: electric booster in the ducting to give you hot air before the engine warms up, electric seat heaters, outside mirror heaters, and a plug-in interior heater that'll pre-warm your car before you get into it.
I suspect 2 people plus a months groceries for 4 would be pushing it. Barb just made her regular trip to the co-op market (an hour's drive away) and came back with a 3-week supply of groceries for 2-1/2 (my daughter's living here part of the week at the moment). Barb used the passenger footwell to carry some of the supplies, but she figured she could have got it all in the back without too much trouble. See the note below about trailering
The car is very well engineered. They've been around for 10 years or so in Europe. Don has seen one go through the auction with 400,000 km on the clock -- about 250,000 miles -- and it was in great shape. Mind you, that's the diesel version. Doing your own repairs would be tricky. Space is really tight and it has a
lot of computers. Warranty work pretty much has to be done at a dealer (80,000 km (50,000 miles) / 4 years for the diesel). The warranty says if the car cannot be safely driven, the warranty covers towing to the nearest authorized dealer. But then, when they fix it you have to go and fetch it since it can be safely driven then.
On the other hand, routine services don't cost any more than for a typical North American car ($125 / $175 for the A & B services). These can be performed by repair shops that have the necessary qualifications.
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2008, 06:13:46 PM
Another question might be, "can a hitch be installed to pull a small trailer for groceries that don't fit the car".
Yes, it can. They make a hitch especially designed for the car (costs about $800 :(). It was meant to pull one of the small trailers you can buy for towing behind motorcycles.
I haven't seen the hitch, but there are two hefty threaded sockets at the back of the car for inserting an eyebolt for towing. I suspect the hitch might attach to these.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Brucer. I'll have to check if we have a dealer 'round these parts. I'm 6'1" with long legs, so it'll be interesting to see someday how I fit into one.
Supposedly two 6'5" people can ride in comfort. When you look at the car, it's all front seat. :D
I've heard that the gassers are pushing 50 mpg. There are two around here, one right yellow, ::) , and a nicer gray one. I still think it would look cool with two 78" LogRites bolted on the roof. ;)
Dave
I've seen several different SmartCars in the last week.
Brucer, can you give us an up to date report on your Smart?
Dave
I'll add the diesel in the Canadian models although may not accelerate like a V-8 monster beat my Suzuki Samurai and our Sidekick with the 96 hp 16 valve motor. In town it was faster up to 30 mph than any of my co-workers normal family sedans.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 17, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
Brucer, can you give us an up to date report on your Smart?
Sorry, been out of touch for a couple of weeks.
A few quick impressions:
22.5 km/L = 64 mpg (imperial) = 53 mpg (US). That's an equal mix of city and highway driving, all on mountain roads (even in town -- Rossland's on the side of a mountain ;D). Don gets 70 mpg (imp) = 58 mpg (US). He lives and works beside the Columbia River and doesn't have to deal with the hills.
It feels like a "normal" sedan inside (yep, it's all front seat). That makes it seem like a regular car. You don't get any more intimidated by big trucks than you normally would. So it's a bit of a surprise when you're backing toward an obstacle and peer out the window to see you've got 8' more room than you thought. I pulled in behind a friend's car the other day, got out, and realized I could have been 6' closer.
Handling is excellent. It leans less on corners than a regular sedan -- probably because all the heavy items (except passengers ;D) are down low. The car has 15" wheels and the front discs are huge -- bigger than my brother's Chevy pickup.
We knew we'd have to make some lifestyle adjustments when we got the car. That's a given. You can offer a friend a lift, but not a couple of friends. If you weren't a creative packer before you get one of these cars, you
will be after you get it. But still, there's a surprising amount of room for stuff.
It's really interesting how many people smile when they see the car. I mean, just about everyone smiles, except the handful who make stupid remarks about the size. For them, I just say, "64 miles per gallon". It cuts the jokes off instantly ;D.
This car was on sale last November for $18,000. No one was buying then, 'cause they were worried about how it would do in the snow. By February, fuel prices were going up but the main local industry was in contract negotiations, so still no one was buying. Don brought the price down to $15,500. That's what I got it for. He's been trying to always have one on the lot, but they're really starting to move (contract was settled, no strike, people suddenly realized the diesels ain't gonna be available no more). That means he has to scramble to find them, and he's competing with several other dealers. Last week he managed to pick up 2 identical to mine, and has them listed for $21,000. And he just sold one for that price. All in all, I figure I did pretty good.
My wife just bought a used 2004 scion XB (the box) for 9 large that had 32k on it. It gets 38 mpg and hauls 4 people and gear pretty well. pretty peppy. And I fit in it just fine (6'4" 250) with room to spare
Problem is the new scions (Toyota) are bigger, have bigger engines and get low 30's per gallon. Toyota did the same with their trucks. I have a mid 80' sr5 longbed out back and it is dwarved by a new Tacoma
WHy cant they keep them small?
Yeah, sounds like Toyota "Americanized" that Scion. My wife had the same experience with her Saturn. She bought one of the first sold in her town, with a manual transmission, hand crank windows -- a plain-jane type of car. She was getting mid 30s MPG in mixed city/highway driving. A year or two later, they changed the design... bigger engine, loaded down with more options. Mileage not nearly as good. Some day, the car companies will realize that not everyone in the USA wants to drive Hummers as a commuter car.
Don't we all want bigger and faster cars? Tim
I'd like to think the majority of us would drive smaller fuel efficient vehicles if we could get them, but I'm guessing market research tells a different story. ;)
Ford is planning to introduce 6 of its European-only models to the North American market next year. Apparently 4 of them are diesels.
GM is going to re-introduce the Camaro.
And GM can't figure out why they're losing money. :) They've sold the Hummer line to a company in India. The Indian company didn't buy it so they could build Hummers and sell them to Indians. They bought it for the brand name. They plan to build small trucks, put the Hummer name on it and sell it back to the Americans.
I think GM is putting all its eggs into the Volt basket.
Hmmmm I guess the U.S. Army maintenance crews on the military Hummers will be calling India for parts and customer service, eh? :D
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on August 07, 2008, 05:38:04 AMI think GM is putting all its eggs into the Volt basket.
If so, this is a dumb move on their part... a plug-in hybrid with 40 miles all-electric range? Why not introduce an all-electric car with 150 mile range, like others are doing? (or like GM had in 1996, with their EV1) Heck, there are even companies converting cars to all-electric that will outperform the Volt...
Like this converted Saturn (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/02/video-amp-leaves-drawing-board-hits-highway/)
For that matter, why not buy a used Prius
today for about $10k and then bring it to one of the places that will upgrade the batteries to make it a plug-in hybrid? The conversions range from $5k to $12k. The more expensive ones have bigger battery packs, which allow you to drive further on all-electric, without the gasoline motor kicking on. So for $15k to $22k, you could be actually
driving a plug-in hybrid car now, instead of waiting for the Volt in 2010.
Hymotion Prius PHEV conversion (http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion)
Plug-in Prius wiki page (http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Prius_PHEV)
Quote from: Tom on August 07, 2008, 10:14:11 AMHmmmm I guess the U.S. Army maintenance crews on the military Hummers will be calling India for parts and customer service, eh? :D
Americans call India for customer service on nearly everything else, why would the Hummers be any different? :D
-Norm.
Quote from: StorminN on August 07, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Why not introduce an all-electric car with 150 mile range, like others are doing? (or like GM had in 1996, with their EV1) Heck, there are even companies converting cars to all-electric that will outperform the Volt...
Where are these 150 mile all-electric cars? Is anyone selling them now, or expecting to have production models available in the next year or so?
Actually, 40 or 50 miles would do it for me, if it was actually 40 usable miles in rolling hills at 40-55 MPH. I'd also need regularly (5 days/week) take the batteries down that low without damaging them: a 40 mile range that left a lead-acid battery pack below 50% SOC would probably make for lousy battery life.
John
Then you should get a Tesla Roadster. It has a range of 220 mile on a single charge and does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. They use lithium-ion battery packs. It has a modest price tag of $100,000. Better hurry up and get one because the price goes up to $109,000 for the 2009 model.
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on August 07, 2008, 04:47:03 PM
Then you should get a Tesla Roadster. It has a range of 220 mile on a single charge and does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. They use lithium-ion battery packs. It has a modest price tag of $100,000. Better hurry up and get one because the price goes up to $109,000 for the 2009 model.
That thing looks like a Ferrari but not worth the price to me. That would pay for a nice plot of land or 3 new pick up trucks that I could do more with!! Probably a real chick magnet though.
If you can afford that car, you ain't worried about the price of gas. ;)
Quote from: John Mc on August 07, 2008, 03:33:47 PMWhere are these 150 mile all-electric cars? Is anyone selling them now, or expecting to have production models available in the next year or so?
John Mc,
The sad fact is, we had these all-electric cars available (albeit in low quantities) over 10 years ago. There was the GM EV1, the Honda EV+, the Toyota RAV4-EV, and some others with shorter ranges, like the Ford Ranger EV and the Chevy S10-EV.
Most of the existing or coming-soon all-electric cars that don't use lead-acid batteries have a range over 100 miles. The NiMh, Li-ion, and LiFePO4 batteries give them good range. There are a bunch of cars slated to be released in the next two years... here is a link to a summary of them, check out the Th!nk, Phoenix, Miles, and Smart models, especially:
EV summary .pdf (http://righthandeng.zftp.com/RHE-AvailableEVs-July-2008.pdf)
-Norm.
I saw a movie "what happend to the electric car?" a few years ago about why we dont still have those little EV1 Gems.
BAsically the movie says GM took them back from all the lease holders (who wanted to buy them) and crushed them because they were TOO good and they were afraid it would cut into their bread and butter gasoline lines.
GM deserves every thing it is is now (not) getting. They fought raising the CAFE standard so they could sell more suburbans and stopped making promising electric cars because they didn't profit from them as much as the suburbans. Hard to make any profit if you cant sell anything.
I seen one of those S10-EV trucks on e-bay the other day. Pretty neat truck. Had an $11,000.00 price tag on it. Didn't look bad at all. Few small dings and a scratch ot 2 but looked good for a route truck. I think that is what it said it was used for.
Shinnlinger,
You've got it exactly right. GM claims they didn't make any money on the EV1's, and that could be true... but they only made a handful of them, so they never got the benefit of the economy of scale for the components. I'm sure the first few thousand Prius' were expensive to manufacture, too... but who's making the money now?
GM's marketing for the EV1's was abysmal... I think that was shown in Who Killed the Electric Car? So once the CARB standard was repealed, GM scrapped the program (and all the EV1's) and instead chose to market and sell big SUV's and other vehicles... that they made a better profit on.
One thing I was wondering the other day was... where are all the Smart cars built, and where are the Priuses built?
-Norm.
Smart cars are made in France by Mercedes Benz. Prius is made in Japan, but will be manufactured in US next year.
Stormin,
It is hard to take money when you take a product from some one who wants to buy it and crush it so yeah I beleive they didn't make any $$$ with it. THey didn't want to make any $$$ with it.
They had all sorts of celebrities (and everyday people)offering big dollars to keep their cars (talk about endorsment!) but no, hauled them to the arizona desert and crushed them before the electric car thing caught on. MOst folks would be fine with a second car that got 150 miles on a charge. Drive to work and come home and then plug it in.
There was an electric car company in Eugene OR (The Gizmo) that made single seaters that could go 40 miles or so at about 1 cent per mile. I asked about rising electricity costs and he pointed out that if rates doubled it would be 2 cents a mile.
Quote from: shinnlinger on August 09, 2008, 08:08:33 AMThere was an electric car company in Eugene OR (The Gizmo) that made single seaters that could go 40 miles or so at about 1 cent per mile. I asked about rising electricity costs and he pointed out that if rates doubled it would be 2 cents a mile.
Not only that, but if push comes to shove, you can generate your own electricity... from solar, wind, PV. There have been a few articles in
Home Power Magazine over the years with people that have PV arrays to charge their cars. Pete Seeger was one of them, AFAIR, he has a converted Ford Ranger pickup.
Conversely, I don't know any people that make their own gasoline... or ethanol, or biodiesel from their own oil (oil they have grown themselves). I know there are people out there doing this, but they are few & far between... definitely less common that people that own both electric cars and PV arrays...
-Norm.
The Tesla Roadster folks are encouraging PV recharge systems. Tim