I would like to know how many of you use tractors to skid logs. I've got a Kubota L3750 and a Norse skidding winch. I've used this setup for sometime now and it's proven to be a very reliable setup.
I go after the smaller plots that alot of the larger companies don't want to mess with. This works out well for both myself and the landowner.
Gordon
There are too many limiting factors for the use of a tractor. Tree size and terrain come to mind.
For low impact logging, these smaller tractors may have some merit, but it should be coupled with some sort of forwarding system to make it truly low impact.
How many feet can you haul out with your setup? 36" butt logs are not uncommon in PA, especially on those small tracts. That's 450-500 bf in an 8' log. Weight around 3 tons. Then, how many trips do you need to get out the whole tree and how long for a turn? After a while, your logging costs get to be pretty high.
We had one logger who used mules. Low impact, low initial cost, and low operational costs. But, you have to be pretty close to your landing, and payloads are reduced. They can buy timber that other loggers can't touch due to the low impact.
More and more loggers are starting to cut those smaller jobs. The lower limit is about 20 Mbf, but if the timber is nice, is even lower. I once saw a large company logging out a 1 acre lot. If the wood is cheap enough or nice enough, they'll come after it.
Woodtick you are right there are limiting factors involved. The terrain around here is flat but traction alot of times is the limiting factor on how much I can skid out. But that goes directly with tree size.
There is no way that I could compete with a skidder for the amout of bf per skid. But you might be surprized on how close I could run!
Gordon
I'm new here on this forum so hope my post doesn't break any rules.
I use a tractor to skid, and load logs with. I mostly saw for my self, so if it's a little slower, no problem. I've not had any problem skidding any log i've hooked to yet.
I have some pictures on line that shows my tractor, and my mill and edger in action.
Hope you all enjoy them,
Robert
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1331114
Welcome to the board Robert! Great pictures!
Dad and use our 180 Massey Ferguson equipped with a Fransgard 4000 skidding winch. It works good for us. Last winter we used a friend's 240B TimberJack cable machine to cut some maple off Grandma's place. What a machine. Tha snow pack was a little much for the MF but it didn't bother the Timberjack any. 8)
My Grandpa skidded logs for years with his H Farmall. Just remember that farm tractors weren't designed with logging in mind and more care must be taken when using them in the woods.
Monday morning I'll be skidding with an Allis Chalmers B, with tire chains. I wouldn't recommend it for someone who is not totally familiar with the tractor and its capabilities, balance, etc. But under the right conditions, with the right hookup, it's amazing what that little tractor can pull. That tractor has been pulling logs for my family since the 40's.
Here is a truly numb question- I've pulled out brush with my tractor, but never a log- heard too many bad stories about accidents. Here's the numb part- which end do you pull it by? :D :D :D
If it's the 'top' end, you'd have to limb it or the limbs would dig in. If it's the butt, you have to elevate it some or the butt digs in. The higher you lift it, the worse off you are.
After I started this thread I began to wonder if anyone else used a tractor to skid with. Glad to hear from a few others.
Robert nice pictures, also thats a nice grapple on that loader, bet that thing is sure nice to have. Can you tell I'm dreweling at the sight of it.
Corey and Timberbeast bring up very good points as to the safety of using a tractor to skid with. One must be on his or her toes constantly when skidding with a tractor.
Gordon
Lets see a new thread in our safety section you tractor guys!
Glad you enjoyed my picts..
As far as safety, it all depends on what tractor you use. I've had a Red Oak picked up with my 3 point that was still 29" in diameter ten feet up, and the front end never did get light. You just have to be care full, and move slow.
I have 750 pounds of cloride in each rear tire on this tractor, and i've still picked up logs with the loader that lifted the rear of the tractor!!! I now know how it feels when it starts to lift, so i just stop lifting and let it settle down. My tractor has enough traction to let the forks and the log lightly skid on the ground if i need to move ahead to get close to the running gear before lifting.
The older tractors are where most of the problems are as all most all of them are front end light!! Add in some one who didn't grow up around them, and you have a "real" problem!
BTW, i always use my seat belt as this tractor has ROPS.
Robert
My Milling Pictures,
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1331114
Jeff, yes I've got a few items to add to the safety thread. I'll also start one on tractors. Got a few da-louies to add in that one. Don't you know a equipment operator named Capt. Nemo? Think that might fit pretty good under that thread.
L. Wakefield, yes you want to top the tree first to get rid of the limbs. What your interested in hauling out is the log itself.
To your question of big end small end. So of course first you want to drop the tree. With the tractor on the skidding trail, if you drop the tree away from the trail then the stump will sometimes be in the way to start the pull out to the trail. If you drop the tree towards the trail then you don't have the stump in the way at the beginning of the pull. So sometimes big end sometimes small end. Depends on the situation
After you pull the logs towards the the tractor then you hook in the lower snatchblock and lift the three point hitch to elevate the butts of the trees. Even though the tree does weigh quite abit you are only lifting a portion of the weight. Another thing that is key is that the winch is close to the back of the tractor. This creates less of a counterbalance effect. When I'm skidding I've got a front end loader with a bucket loaded to counteract the weight on the rear. Also having four wheel drive and rear chains helps in the traction area.
Once moving one must be careful of snags or stumps of course. The nice thing about this area is that it's flat overall. Skidding logs with a tractor is not for everyone. Like anything else in the woods it is very-very dangerous.
Did I even come close to answering your questions?
Gordon
Yup, Nemo will surface when the time is right!
Yes, that was quite helpful. I've seen weights made to bolt onto the front end of the tractor, but haven't yet devised such for myself. Didn't actually think of putting something in the bucket :)
The contents of one post had suggested to me that maybe the safe way was to skid them out while driving backwards- that is, hook them to the bucket and then back up. Hmm, I will have to tell you sometime about the backwards steering tractor, brain damage, and why I DON'T LIKE TO BACK UP...
Had a serendipitous (good) effect from some high winds here. We still have a fair amount of standing deadwood prime to be felled and cut up for firewood. We had a major windstorm, and some of these puppies just laid themselves right down for me. Easy, huh? No worries abbout dropping it on my various body parts :D :D
My husband told me about walking near the hemlock swamp during this same windstorm- the ground is very wet and the trees, while tall, are very shallow rooted. The frost was just coming out of the ground, and he said as the wind was roaring, the trees were tossing so much the ground around their roots was actually lifting up- he said he could feel it under his feet! Tall tale? I'm not sure. I was torn between giving him 'heck' for not getting OUT of there- and wishing I'd been there to see. Rabbit running for shelter- and then peeking out to see if it really IS a tornado. Wouldn't be the first time. ;)
Loaders are NOT designed to take side stress! I've see tractors broken in half from this.
Pull from the rear, and unless you have a fairly big tractor with some weight on the front end, use the draw bar!!
Pull SLOW, and a skidding winch is a good investment of a smaller tractor!!
Robert
My Milling Pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1331114%20
Robert is right about the bucket being dangerous. It also changes your center of gravity whenever your pulling something with the loader or with the three point hitch. That's why if you don't have a winch it's always best to pull from the drawbar. It's under the axle and below the center of gravity on the tractor more likely to spin tires rather than flip the tractor.
Also have to remember that when using the loader even with loaded tires it's best to have weight on the three point hitch to counter act the weight your putting on the front of the tractor.
L Wakefield here is a page you might be interested in. Has some pretty good info. about farm tractor skidding.
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forestry/420-090/420-090.html
Gordon
Hi There, 12 years ago I bought a new Ford 5610 4WD tractor with frontend loader and attached a Norse winch with hinged dozer blade. Although I was mainly in the fuelwood business, I pulled some big wood with this outfit. It would actually pull as much as the JD 440 as long as had the material bucket full of blocked wood.
Both tractors and skidders have advantages and disadavantages, however if your lucky enough to learn how to skid properly with the right tractor and winch you will make an awesome skidder operator. A tractor is like a deer in the woods, while a skidder is like a moose and feels no pain. The concept is largely the same with both pieces of equipment, since its the winch that gets you out of most technical problems, by either droping the hitch or winching it in. The safety factors are different though. The tractor operator must be more aware of overhead dangers and spears.
I sold the 5610 after 6 years of use and bought a JD540A which I do commercial thinning with.
John
Gordon- thanx mucho for the MOST EXCELLENT webpage reference. Answers all my questions- and with pictures. I need pictures. I do have a 50-something HP tractor, but it's 2wd. I have lotsa acres, but timber is -NOT- mature- whereas I -am- mature, by far.
I wonder how the safety stats compare between logging and firefighting? lw
John, I like that analogy---the tractor is like a deer and the skidder is like a moose that feels no pain. I wouldn't have a skidding winch without a blade at the bottom of it. Comes in handy for a lot of stuff. You have to use finesse with a tractor thats for sure. Just don't have the brut force of a skidder.
Did you have a lot of hours on the tractor when you traded it? What kind of wood did you skid?
Gordon
I see Norwood is now selling skidding winches for tractors with a 3 point hitch.
I have several products that Norwood sells, and all have been very good.
Robert
Norwoods Skidding Winches
http://www.norwoodindustries.com/skidmaster.htm
My Milling Pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1331114
Robert that is a nice looking setup. Any idea what they run price wise? I do like the fact that they are hydraulic instead of pto. Pto hookup can be a hassle at times. But it comes with the territory.
The one I have now is still working fine so far knock on wood.
Gordon
The price sheet i have list the,
Skid Master 28 $2,695.00
Skid Master 34 $3,295.00
I'm not sure how these prices fit in for a set up like that, but in Norwoods vidio they look pretty good.
I have a 25,000 pound rated winch that is now on a trailor, powered with the pulling tractors PTO. I've been thinking of putting a hydraulic motor on it, and powering it with my tractors remote. I would then build something like one of these skidding winches. So far my tractor has pulled every log i've hooked to it with out a problem, so my winch project never gets built. I did use it once as is to pull my stuck dozer out of the mud!!
Robert
My Milling Pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1331114
A Norse winch close to what I have would run about $3000.00 It has a pulling cap. of almost 10,000 pounds. If you do decide to go with a winch make sure you get one with a butt plate or blade. This really helps to anchor the tractor and also is a dozer blade as well.
A Farmi is probably pretty close as well price wise.
The main thing to consider in using your remote off the tractor is how much hydraulic flow you have available. In the case of the Norwood winch. But the construction of that winch in the pictures looks like it was very well thought out. It has a receiver for a trailer hitch. That in itself is a good thought.
Also has a slight vee in the rear plate this allows the logs to ride better and keep to center. All in all it does look like a nice rig.
Ever thought of hooking up a winch on the back of that dozer?
Gordon
I just returned from a trip to Norwood Industries show room in Kilworthy Ontario Canada. It was really great looking over all their products, and i spent some extra time looking over their skidding winches. I was very inpressed with how well they are designed and built. I like the way Norwoods winches are hydrualic powered useing the tractors remotes. They all so have a receiver tube welded in them, so you can pull your trailor behind to the wood lot. The paint is powder coat, and that should help hold rust at bay.
The people at Norwood answered all my questions, and were very friendly. If you are visiting near Kilworthy Ont., stop in and see them. They even have a Lumbermate 2000 set up out side for you to try out.
Robert
Norwoods SkidMaster
http://www.norwoodindustries.com/skidmaster.htm
Milling Lumber From My Wood Lot
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1331114
That Norwood winch does look like a nice one. The ability to pull a trailer is a great idea on their part.
Now I've got some fun ahead of me. Just got my new Kubota. It's a L4310 so I've got to get it ready for the woods. I've got to make a belly pan for it add some expanded metal to the front brush guard, add a save lid over my head, this one has no cab. I'm going to miss that. But the hydrostatic trans sure is nice. Let you guys and gals know how I like it once I get 50-100 hours on it.
The nice thing about having my old tractor for such a long time is that I knew every nook and cranny of it and also how it would react in unsafe situations as well. But there comes a time when your fixing it more than running it, and no more tax write off has a lot to do with it too.
Gordon
i started logging in 9191 with a john deere 3020 with a cab from a 440-a on it and a farmi winch and used a old 4by 4 pickup with a snow plow to pile with we got 3 wheeler loads a week was a lot of work but we did it like my 748 alot better but thats what i started with .
Timeless advice and information but what became of the Norwood skidding winch ???
Speak for them selves, discussion in that other post skidder vs. tractors...
International 1066 (100hp plus & 12,000 pounds) with double ring chains...much more effective than I thought it would be...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11485/Tractorwins.jpg)
The 1066 pulled out three loads like this November/December 2011
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11485/615/load2.jpg)
Massey Ferguson 1433 4x4 compact (33hp) for tops and smaller wood
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11485/615/0924001723.jpg)
My wood lot
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11485/615/med_gallery_640_10_205091.jpg)
I took a old hay lift cut off the bottom two spikes and put a large pair of logging tongs on the center spike. Just back up to the log and go. Works just fine.
Quote from: Bogue Chitto on January 13, 2012, 10:51:02 AM
I took a old hay lift cut off the bottom two spikes and put a large pair of logging tongs on the center spike. Just back up to the log and go. Works just fine.
You have pics? I was thinking of doing the same on the little tractor. Think the stuff I typically pull with the bigger one would either bend/break any tongs I could find or tear them out of the log going around trees or going up the really steep grades.
I will take some pictures for over the weekend. Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position) .
They won't pull out if there set good, and a good set of logging Tongs won't bend.
When logging big pine or hardwood is a good way to go with a skidder.
When cutting pine, I'd saw a 33 foot [2 16's] in other words saw the tree in two. We had to sets of Tongs on the skidder, back up where i sawed, instead of digging in the snow setting chockers, throw the Tongs on and your gone, pull on the landing and drop, they on hook them self, back out for another hook. [ Fast ]
My bad. S :-\ :-\orry Jeff. Want happen again.
I use a 40hp MFWD tractor with loader and Wallenstein FX90 skidding winch. Central Indiana is almost all flat so I don't have much hill issues to deal with.
The winch is perfect for this tractor at 9,000 pounds pull. I rarely use a cable choker and only now and then on small logs do I use a choke chain. I almost always skidding tongs. Once those are sunk into the log, they do not come out, but come off easily when you get to the log yard.
For anybody new to skidding, get a self releasing snatch block to redirect the logs around other trees. It's great for doubling the pull force if you need it too. Like when you get one tree hung up in another tree.
My dad and I used a 1948 John Deere B for about 25 years (circa 1985-2010) with a 3-point mounted, home built chain arch. They are easy to make. He welded it out of scrap steel. You set two (or more) notches to hold chains, and you can lift the front of the logs off the ground.
Having spent so much time at it over the years, and having learned some lessons the hard way, let me see if I can break it down for you.
First, the tractor. 1948 John Deere B, with rollomatic narrow front end.
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/006/9/8/6989-john-deere-b.html
Adjustable rear wheel tread. Ours was set around 6 ft wide. (important). 27 engine horsepower. fuel, gasoline. No external ballast. No loaded tires. Approximate weight 4,300 lbs. plus operator. 38 inch rear tires. Decent tire tread. No chains. No four-wheel-drive. No diff lock. No power-shift. No synchro transmission. 6 transmission speed forward, one reverse. Low gear speed: 1.75 mph. High gear speed +/- 10.5 mph. Transmission-drive (non-independent) PTO. PTO-driven (non-indpendent) hydraulic rockshaft with home-made 3-point hitch, no down pressure. HAND-operated clutch lever. 2-cylinder engine, 190 CID, 1250 rated RPM (rarely attained in daily use). No ROPS, roll-bar, or operator protection of any kind. No fenders. No power steering. (steering was quite manageable while moving).
On the plus side, the tractor had several notable capabilities. The home-made three-point hitch, attached to the rudimentary hydraulic rockshaft, was strong enough to lift any logs the tractor was capable of pulling out of the woods. If the weight was too much, it could actually lift the front end of the tractor off the ground, so hydraulic power was acceptable. The big rear tires of the tractor gave a considerable amount of traction, and it could forge through 18 inch snow. Due to its narrow front end and adequate rear wheel brakes, it could pivot on either rear wheel to turn 90 degrees to either side. The narrow front end gave it more tree clearance when making these tight maneuvers. The horizontal 2-cylinder engine gave it a much lower center of gravity than one might expect, making it adequately stable. The roll-o-matic front end suspension, a John Deere exclusive, allowed the dual front wheels to pivot independently for shared load-baring and steering traction. The hand clutch, when the operator became well accustomed to it, was actually a quicker and safer way to stop the tractor than a foot clutch (our hand reflexes are quicker than our foot reflexes).
We would cut our firewood, saw-log, and pulp trees down, and completely limb them before backing the tractor to them. We preferred to skid from the butt end of the logs since they were heavier, and we would get better traction. we would pull the logs out tree-length except the very rare occasions (central Maine, here) when we would cut a tree too large to pull out in its entirety. The tractor could generally haul an 18-inch white pine or hemlock, 50-60 ft. long, or two or three 12-15 inch balsam firs, 30-40 ft. long. For hardwoods, we could haul two 12-inch maples tree length, or one larger one. This we did under just about every imaginable tractive condition, from deep mud to deep snow, frozen bare ground, and glare ice. Sometimes we would have problems, but we would have to learn our way around them. We got stuck sometimes, but we always managed to get out. Usually without going back to the house for additional resources. I operated this tractor in the woods from the time I was 10 years old until I was 16, when I left home and went to college, and intermittently after that. We never used a winch.
The method of skidding logs was like this. We would back up to the log, drop the 3-point hitch with chain arch as close to the end of the log as we could get to, set the brakes, engage the clutch in neutral with the PTO turned on (thus also enabling the hydraulics), hop off, unhook one end of the chain from the arch, snake it around the log, take out the slack by pulling the chain taught, and snag it in the notch in the chain arch as tight as possible. Then, we would reach up to the rockshaft lever (which could conveniently be accessed from behind the tractor, unlike on many tractors) and raise the 3-point, thus dragging the log closer to the tractor. If the log was still too far away after that, we would drop the hitch, take the newly obtained slack out of the chain, resnag it tighter, and retreat the process. Sometimes if the log was bound up by other trees, we could only gain a link or two each time. When we got the log close enough to where the tractor could actually lift the end off the ground, we would then hop back on, put the tractor in first or second gear, depending on terrain, and ease forward until we got the log out to the relatively smooth logging road, where we would shift up to 3, 4, 5, or sometimes even 6th gear if conditions allowed. (yes, I routinely twitched tree-length logs in road gear on our smoother woods roads in the winter). One log was not enough, unless it was a huge one, so we would drop the first log in a safe flat spot where we could get by, then go back for a second one, bring it out alongside the first one, then rehook the first one alongside the second one, to have two tree-length logs bouncing along behind the tractor all the way to the landing, which was typically at least a quarter mile away. If we were doing firewood or pulp and had some smaller logs, we would take as many as 4 smaller ones at once. But 2 was a typical load out. When we got to the landing, we would drive up beside or even over the top of the logs that had been brought out previously. For pulp wood, we would have to consolidate the pile so somebody's wheeler could get in to pick it up, but when we were just doing firewood, we would let it sprawl out all over the landing. We would make it as dense as we could by straddling and sometimes even driving up over existing logs to lay the new ones in between or on top of the old ones. On years when we actually had a functioning bulldozer at home, we could start it up and push the pile up as needed, especially to accommodate wheelers, but we usually didn't cut more than a single wheeler load of pulp per year, and not every year. we typically cut 4-6 cords of firewood for our own use each year, the intermittent pulp load (usually fir or popple) and occasionally saw logs, which we never cut more than a few at a time, maybe a small truck load.
Now, having said all that, I can't recommend it to anybody, because it just isn't safe. But we were poor desperate starving people who didn't believe in asking for handouts. Dad bought the John Deere B for around $1,000 in 1980 or 1981. He did some work on it over the years, fixed the transmission, and a number of other things, and designed and built the 3-point hitch and chain arch himself, but it gave him 30 years of stellar service, after it had already given somebody else 30 years of stellar service. I was mad at him when he sold it in 2010.
Now all you people with your nice 4x4 Kubotas with winches, ROPS, hyrdrostatic transmissions, and things of that nature, you all be safe out there, you hear? You can't do what a skidder can do, in terms of production figures, but you can go places a skidder can't go (like between 2 trees that are six feet apart). You can go places a skidder isn't worth it, like on a half-acre lot. You can put your Kubota on a trailer and tow it behind your pickup. Try that with your Timberjack! And you can mess around and log a small parcel on the amount of fuel it would take to drive the skidder there on a low-boy, offload it, reload it, and haul it back home. As someone said already, just
REMEMBER THAT YOUR LITTLE TRACTOR IS NOT A SKIDDER, and it is BREAKABLE, unlike a skidder. Like was said, the difference between a deer and a moose, or, I say, the difference between a pack-goat and a draft-ox. Don't ask your tractor to do more than it ought to be able to do. And don't treat those little over-seas tractors like antique American made machines-- the cargo-container tractors will never have the resillience and charisma of an antique John Deere, Farmall or Oliver, but they are much safer and more productive, so long as you don't treat them like skidders. ;)
We did have loaded tires on the NAA Ford,but just about the same way we brought logs out of the woods. My Father was on the tractor and I was the chain man. Than we bought a Norse 3pt winch and a 40 hp 4wd tractor with a loader. What a treat that was. He only got to use it for about 3-4 years before he died. He could of bought it 20 years before that. These old thread just pop up and off they go.
I may have implied, but I may as well state, that the amount of logging you intend to do in a year should also be a factor when deciding on a tractor. We were weekend warriors, so to speak, hauling out 4-15 cords of wood per year, or so. If you only plan to do a little bit of logging, part time, either for your own use or to sell a little, then a tractor is a relatively inexpensive way to get your foot in the door. The tractor has the additional benefit of being useful for many other things besides logging, such as gardening, haying, and so on. Skidders-- well, they do have other uses, but not typically those, and any use besides logging for a skidder is typically inefficient, except a few specific uses with a very narrow demand.
If you buy a tractor with the intention of logging with it, be sure to buy a brand and model that is very common, so that you will have no trouble buying parts WHEN it breaks down. For most tractors more than 20 years old and smaller than 60 hp, that were commonly sold models, buying parts is usually fairly easy and not typically as expensive as replacing parts in a big log skidder. You're also more likely to have the tools and facilities to do the work yourself, if you're so inclined. Want to know what models of tractors are common? (in USA) Go to
http://www.tractorhouse.com/drilldown/manufacturers.aspx?ETID=1&catid=1100
Select a brand that you know is common, or that has more than 100 listings. Then you will be at a subpage, such as this:
http://www.tractorhouse.com/drilldown/models.aspx?ETID=1&catid=1100&Manu=MASSEY-FERGUSON
And you can look at the different models listed and notice which models have a lot of listings-- like, say, 10 or more. In this example, you can see that the most common used Massey Ferguson available on this website at this time is the model 135. (no surprise, to those of us who know tractors). There are many other models with, say, 10-30 of them for sale. Those are the more common models available.
Then you can look through the common models and get a feel for which model might best suit your needs, at a price you can afford. To get more data on tractor specs, check the specs at
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/index.html
Personal preference comes in to play, as well.....
Okrafarmer got it right. I grew up in the rural south, where most jobs were forestry related in one way or another. Nobody had skidders. For skidding out tree length logs, the machine of choice was 9N, 8N fords, Masseyferguson 35, 135 or a pair of big mules. A few folks tried small tracked dozers, they usually went broke. If you have enough work to keep a skidder busy, that's the way to go, but otherwise they are a money pit. I still own a 1960 massey 135 that I used for logging for many years. For just pure log skidding, it's still better than the bigger M series kubota I currently use. But the kubota has hydraulics, a front loader with forks (not recommended on the fords or masseys), and a winch to retrieve logs I can't quite get to otherwise. I never remember seeing a farmall or one of the early deeres in the woods, there were plenty of them in the cotton patches and corn fields.
In Maine, the JD and Farmalls were used heavily in the woods, along with Allis Chalmers, Oliver, and Massey Harris. The utilities were left home a lot. The little crawlers were used a lot too, JD MC, 40, 420, etc. and Oliver HG, OC-3, and so on. Cat D-2, D-4, International T-6, T-9, and the like. The crawlers keep going even when skidders are grounded.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28428/DSCN2516_28800x60029.jpg)
I took an old hay rake and modified it with logging tongs. I back up to the log lower tongs and take off.
That rig ought to work pretty well, Bogue. I might consider cutting off the remaining length of the bale spear past the tongs, to keep from hitting my head or other parts on it while walking around the tractor.
Quote from: Bogue Chitto on February 02, 2012, 10:05:34 AM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28428/DSCN2516_28800x60029.jpg)
I took an old hay rake and modified it with logging tongs. I back up to the log lower tongs and take off.
Are the tongs welded to the spear? It looks like you cut the lower spears off completely? That seems like a pretty simple arrangement. Guess I'm going to have to locate one I already have the tongs. Thanks!
Two bottom spears run all the way through frame and were bolted from other side. Top spear was the same way. When I made it I never took the sharp point off and backed it into a tree. Broke in half. Spear is much shorter and I cut the point off. Much safer now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28428/DSCN2515_28800x60029%7E0.jpg) No the tongs are not welded to spear. I welded a cleat to to the top so I can slide the tongs on and off.
For my use that seems to be the ticket! I'm searching craigs list now for the starter kit ;D
What would you figure the best length for the spear to be when cut off?
Also, for about $200 (less used) a 3 ph quick hitch works well as it comes with the top hook. No cutting, breaking, or welding required. Just drop the tongs over the hook when needed.
And use the hitch to easily pick up other attachments.. ballast box, rotary cutter, forks, etc.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/4300Logging.jpg)
My Kubota is a 43 HP 4wd, what class quick hitch would I need?
Believe they come in cat. I or cat. II whichever you have (likely cat I)
Speeco, Harbor Freight, Deere iMatch are some.
Also here is vid. It is in some foreign language, but the visual is good. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kam1f1uMyYE
Quote from: Raider Bill on February 03, 2012, 10:15:47 AM
For my use that seems to be the ticket! I'm searching craigs list now for the starter kit ;D
What would you figure the best length for the spear to be when cut off?
The cleat used to be further out from the tractor until I backed into a oak tree and broke it off. I used for about 6 years before it broke but that was due to sticking the sharp point into the tree. Now it is shorter and I cut the point off which I should have done when I made it. I liked it when it was longer because the tongs where further from the tractor allowing you to get a better grip on the log. I don't know why I left that much spear on the lift but it could be cut off at the cleat.
Quote from: beenthere on February 03, 2012, 10:50:14 AM
Also, for about $200 (less used) a 3 ph quick hitch works well as it comes with the top hook. No cutting, breaking, or welding required. Just drop the tongs over the hook when needed.
And use the hitch to easily pick up other attachments.. ballast box, rotary cutter, forks, etc.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/4300Logging.jpg)
We never had any tongs, but we built a framework to lift the logs by means of chains. A quick-coupler would have worked, and I thought about making the log frame into a quick-coupler. We always called the frame a log arch, even though it didn't have wheels.
Did it look something like this one?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/8NHitch.jpg)
Yes, that is exactly the concept, but ours was triangular, A-frame, with a cross-piece near the top where we hooked the chains, that way we could get some real height out of them. Later, we added a lower cross piece, about half-way down to add more chains. Early on, with just the one cross-piece, it had two chain notches, and we would use both ends of a single chain to pull two logs. Later, we added the second cross bar with two more notches, to add two ends of another chain.
Is the class size difference for a bigger or smaller tractor or is it the quality of the hitch adapter?
Category 0 3 Point Hitch
This category is intended for tractors up to 20 Horsepower
Toplink Pins are 5/8" diameter
Lift Arm Pins are 5/8" diameter
Category 1 3 Point HitchThis category is intended for tractors 20 to 45 Horsepower
Toplink Pins are 3/4" diameter
Lift Arm Pins are 7/8" diameter
Category 2 3 Point Hitch
This category is intended for tractors 55-95 Horsepower
Toplink Pins are 1" diameter
Lift Arm Pins are 1 1/8" diameter
Category 3 3 Point Hitch
This category is for tractors above 95 Horsepower
Toplink Pins are 1 1/4" diameter
Lift Arm Pins are 1 7/16" diameter
If your tractor is equipped with category 2 and you want to use a cat 1 implement, you can insert bushings into the holes to take up the slack. These bushings can be made by a fab shop or are available from tractor dealers, Tractor Supply, and so on. But I would be careful about using any Cat 1 implements with a tractor over, say, 65 hp or so, as a more powerful tractor can tear up small implements not designed for that much power.
Thank You!
In thinking about this attachment does it help distribute the weight of say a bush hog or other heavy implement on the 3pt?
Quote from: Raider Bill on February 06, 2012, 09:14:44 AM
In thinking about this attachment does it help distribute the weight of say a bush hog or other heavy implement on the 3pt?
RB
Are you referring to the quick hitch?
If so, it puts the weight a few inches further back.
The advantage for me is the quick hitch and go - don't have to spend the time and effort of pushing and pulling to align pin holes. Only get off the tractor to hook up the PTO (and even those are being improved to quick attach).
For example, usually once a week in the winter, I'll drop the ballast box and attach the forks to move a pallet of firewood, and the drop the forks and pick up the ballast box without getting off the tractor.
Yes sorry the quick hitch.
I sometimes struggle getting the 3 pt pins to line up. I watch the locals they got it figured out but I don't have that experience. Maybe this will help. Also thinking it will "share" the strain between all 3 points.
I'm going to find out what size my pins are then buy a quick hitch to match the class and have it shipped to the Tenn property so it's there next trip.
Also looking for a old hay spear.
If'n you have the quick hitch, you won't need a bale spear for log tongs (unless you need to spear bales. :) )
Well I hope you're all happy...especially you, Okrafarmer. I was just sitting here minding my own business, perusing the forum (I find it interesting when 12 year old threads are brought back to life :D :D), when you had to pull the antique tractor card outta of your sleeves. One of my first memories is of learning to drive an old Ford 9N (I mean it was old in the 1960's). Drove it right through a split rail fence...another memory is how to rebuild a split rail fence :D :D :D. So now I've got an itch that I thought had been scratched along time ago...and I might have to take a look at the bank account!
Seriously though, I'm in the midst of buying a decent sized woodlot. Eventually, I'll clear out a couple acres for a building site and also manage the forest. I have a skid steer and access to a backhoe and an excavator, so equipment isn't an issue. I just like the idea of moving logs with an old tractor, hell I'd buy a team of horses if I had a place to keep them. So my question is-would a 1950 something Ford 8N or a Massey Ferguson 135 or 50 have enough HP to drag around some good sized hardwood logs?
Quote from: beenthere on February 03, 2012, 05:27:52 PM
Believe they come in cat. I or cat. II whichever you have (likely cat I)
Speeco, Harbor Freight, Deere iMatch are some.
Also here is vid. It is in some foreign language, but the visual is good. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kam1f1uMyYE
Beenthere, I used Google Translator... still sounds a little odd though :D ;D :D ;D
:D :D
The 8N Ford in reasonably good condition will pull out some pretty decent size logs. Everything has its limits tho. One limit I remember well is sometimes had to have two on the hood to keep the front end down. The 3 ph had plenty of power to lift and hanging weights on the front meant less traction moving about without a 3ph load (and no power steering or front wheel drive assist).
Just a bit of a nuisance was having to have the 8N PTO engaged to run the hyd. pump which also meant the clutch had to be engaged to lift anything. That or adjust it on the go to keep the log off the ground and the front wheels close to the ground. :)
Quote from: Tdawg on February 06, 2012, 10:48:07 PM
Well I hope you're all happy...especially you, Okrafarmer.
So my question is-would a 1950 something Ford 8N or a Massey Ferguson 135 or 50 have enough HP to drag around some good sized hardwood logs?
Yeah, man. Especially the 135 or 50. But read my big post carefully.
Quote from: beenthere on February 07, 2012, 12:27:28 AM
Just a bit of a nuisance was having to have the 8N PTO engaged to run the hyd. pump which also meant the clutch had to be engaged to lift anything. That or adjust it on the go to keep the log off the ground and the front wheels close to the ground. :)
It was the same for the John Deere B. You should always have your foot ready to jam on the clutch, and your hand ready to drop the 3-point hitch if you have a real heavy log on there. The JD B's hand clutch was safer than a foot clutch for that sort of thing (assuming you are accustomed to it) but if I were to do that kind of logging with a foot-clutch tractor not equipped with a roll-bar, then I think it would be wise to rig up a little wire with a kill-switch at the end of it to kill your engine ignition with a quick panic-hit to the switch. Then hold the little kill-switch in your non-steering hand while hauling logs. It is so hard to jam your foot on the clutch in time, your hand can react a lot quicker. All it takes is a split second to walk your tractor over backward and crush you. This can happen even if you do not use the 3-point hitch-- ie, using a chain pulling from the drawbar. Your log can snag on a stump or other obstacle and flip you over. People die that way.
Depends on how much you want to use it. I feel it's an old tractor,the metal is old on it and things break. I have a 1954 NAA Ford that is no longer in use. It's a little bit bigger and better designed than the 8 and 9n. But we use to haul out some good size logs without beating on it to do it. My land is hard to work on,uneven places,small knolls,rocks. My Father would get so called stuck with it. Get behind a rock sticking up and a stump on the other wheel and there he was. Would have to try to back up and set over or just unhook and drive forward. We use to put some 4 foot wood over some of the rough parts to get us over them.
Quote from: Tdawg on February 06, 2012, 10:54:23 PM
Quote from: beenthere on February 03, 2012, 05:27:52 PM
Believe they come in cat. I or cat. II whichever you have (likely cat I)
Speeco, Harbor Freight, Deere iMatch are some.
Also here is vid. It is in some foreign language, but the visual is good. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kam1f1uMyYE
Beenthere, I used Google Translator... still sounds a little odd though :D ;D :D ;D
I saw that video Speeco is actually the one I'm thinking of buying. $261 plus a few sets of extra adapters. Just a tad over $300 plus shipping.
I pulled out half a dozen or more cords of hardwood firewood and fir/spruce sawlogs etc every year for 20 years with my 8N; Logs of maybe 100 board feet skidded easily, traction was normally not a problem, double ring chains help after the ground freezes. The biggest issue was having to back down to the log, backing down into a ravine, backing into a spot where live trees you're trying not to damage, block your way, getting hung up on stumps, and trying to move a log stuck behind a stump or rock.
Compare to now with my Kubota and a Farmi winch: still a lot of hard work, but much safer! In any event, get a snatch block!
simonmeridew
I'm not overly concerned about the safety aspect. If I ever got into an issue, I have some gear with serious rollover protection. I have the equipment that can do the job but fartin' around on an old tractor just appeals to me for some strange reason. Before I spend any cash, I want to make sure that the old girl can actually pull something.
Well, just remember, some accidents happen when we expect them, but most happen when we don't expect them. You only have one chance, every second of your life, to keep from messing up. :)
Yes, if any of those old tractors are running right, they will pull logs if you do it in an effective way. My grandpa used to cut his firewood stove length and pull it out of the woods in a trailer with his Farmall Cub. ;) The Ford N tractors have 3-point hitch, and they may not be able to match the John Deere B, but they will still pull logs. If you really want to get your oaks out in a hurry, use a John Deere 60. One of my neighbors used a John Deere G-- that's a bit overkill, but it bridged the gap between a model B and the first skidders.
pulling with a tractor is ok but really you should be pulling with the draw bar or the lift arms. all the pics I see posted in this thread the pulling point is being put on the top link which puts a lot of stress on the top of the tractor housing. which all tractor manufacturers claim is a big no no.
Quote from: js2743 on February 08, 2012, 03:38:09 AM
pulling with a tractor is ok but really you should be pulling with the draw bar or the lift arms. all the pics I see posted in this thread the pulling point is being put on the top link which puts a lot of stress on the top of the tractor housing. which all tractor manufacturers claim is a big no no.
The top link takes a lot of stress any time you are using a heavy 3-point implement. I don't really think it's a big problem. Now, as I have stated before, you must not treat your tractor as if it is actually a skidder. It is not as strong as a skidder.
The top link for the John Deere B does not attach to the rear central housing. It attaches by means of a Y-shaped yoke to the rear axle, where there are bolts for mounting fenders, a loader, or other mounted implements. We never had any problem with that. Did break the actual top-link itself once, but it was home-made, not factory.
I was pulling a low tired trailer behind a Allis Chalmers B when i was 12 yrs old. It reared up on me a couple times, all most went over one time [ scary] it was a miracle it didn't get hurt.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21649/I_skidded_with_this_when_i_was_12.jpg)
When i was 16 i used this M-Moline we had. I pulled a wooden dray that dad had made for the OC-3 Oliver cat, it held a full cord. I was strip cutting at the time, i thought why am i piling the wood in the woods then loading on the dray. Why not take the dray in the woods and pile the wood on that. When i got it loaded i'd hook the Moline up and out to the landing we'd go. You stood up to drive it, with a hand clutch, it was a G series, 6 cylinder, she liked her gas, count how many gals. of gas you used, you knew how many cds you skidded. This is a pic of one like it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21649/minneapolis-Moline-model-g2C_i_skidded_wood_with_one.jpg)
Tdawg:
You will be able to pull an amazing sized log with an 8N. Mostly I skidded with mine in 3rd gear, (out of 4 forward) but if the going got tough, or up hill, I dropped down to 2nd. To give you an idea of the log size I have pulled, I had a 10 foot sugar maple log, 16 in diameter top end that I pulled down to my landing, lifting the butt end with the 3pth. I went back up to get the 2nd log, same length, 14 in top end and pulled it down to the landing. I had my friend mill it out with his wood mizer, 5/4, and had 4 boards sawed to 1/2 inch. The five quarter boards we turned into a nice staircase, and the half inchers my son turned into kitchen drawer sides and backs. That was 15 years ago.
I welded up a grab hook arrangement to attach to the 3pth drawbar, and always pulled from this, never use the toplink to pull from unless you have prepaid funeral arrangements made. My 8N is a '51, my son has it now.
simonmeridew
Quote from: simonmeridew on February 08, 2012, 07:14:30 PM
Tdawg:
To give you an idea of the log size I have pulled, I had a 10 foot sugar maple log, 16 in diameter top end that I pulled down to my landing, lifting the butt end with the 3pth. I went back up to get the 2nd log, same length, 14 in top end and pulled it down to the landing.
You should be able to pull a whole lot more than that at one time. You should not have cut your logs to length, you should have limbed the tree and pulled the whole thing out at once. The John Deere B could pull out two full-size trees like that at once. And routinely did.
He did it the right way,slow and safe. Probaly could of hauled more,I'm sure it would of. We had a few corners to take, and a few small knolls and many rocks to go over. My father always drove the tractor. Probably knowing him and our land he was in 1st gear alot coming out with a log behind him. I forgot that part.
Sorry, my tone was not very nice in the last post. :-[ I was (inexcusably) in a bad mood based on something in my life totally unrelated, and I appologize.
To clarify, you should always be safe. Also, the terrain and your experience level have a lot to do with how much you can take at one time. And he said hard maples, not red maples. The ones I was thinking were red maples, which are a little lighter than hard maples. Still, if the terrain were not too difficult, the 8N should have been able to at least handle the two logs he mentioned in one trip with no problems. Leaving your logs long usually works pretty well, and saves time. If you have a log that is too long or too heavy for your tractor and situation, then you will usually be able to tell and that is when it is time to cut it in two and make two trips. ;) But a lot of people just assume they have to cut their tree into the logs they will use, back in the woods, and then pull them all out, when it is easier to pull it out tree-length if the tractor will handle it.
Lumberjack, an Allis Chalmers B was my first personal tractor. I bought it for $450 when I was 13. 8)
Simon, thanks for all the info. I'm familiar with your neck of the woods (it looks a lot like mine), so I know the kind of timber you're pulling. Does the 8N have enough oomph to support a skidding winch? The lot I'm buying is way too thick to be trying to back up over the logs. I'll need a winch regardless of what I use to drag them out.
Thanks,
Terry
Tdawg
I have had a Farmi winch on my Kubota L4400 (44horsepower).for the past 6 years. It's the medium sized winch, I think the most popular and common size unit, and as I said in the first post, makes it much safer to log, as well as convenient. I've never tried the winch on my 8N but I'm sure it would work, and the 3pth on the 8N is plenty strong enough to lift the winch. But it does represent maybe 600 pounds of dead weight hanging off the back of your tractor, so there's 600 pounds less log you can pick up. I think I can recall hitches of logs that the 3pth wouldn't fully lift(no winch, just the drawbar) on my 8N, that may have been weak hydraulic mechanism, or mechanism out of adjustment(safety valves get weak and wear out frequently in the 8N but are easy to change if you don't mind plunging your hand blindly into 6 inches of hydraulic oil and unscrewing it.)
You might consider looking at the smaller size Farmi type winch; it's smaller and lighter, a little less pull but if you're not worried about time and motion testing, it will be very satisfactory I'm sure.
Another consideration with an older tractor like the 8N is that when you winch a log towards you, there is considerable tendency of the tractor to be pulled backwards at the same time(see Newton's Laws). This is despite the winch having a blade that digs into the dirt when you drop the 3pth lift lever. So you need to have a good functional parking brake to keep the tractor still. The 8N parking brake is awkward at best, and sometimes very tricky to disingage. Many times I drop the Kubota's front end bucket as an additional drag when winching. If the ground is frozen like it is now without much snow the winch blade doesn't dig in at all so you need to set the parking brake and get what you can from the tire chains.
No offense taken Okrafarmer, my woodlot has a couple of sharp(close radius) turns in some of the roads and when I pull out long balsum fir or white spruce trees I normally skid them out tree length; they sort of bend around rocks, stumps trees and other obstructions, but if I have a nice maple or yellow birch log that I don't want to bugger up I try to cut it to length, then skid it out. Vermont is also home of the sidehill swamp, and our mud season lasts till things dry up in July and too much weight really digs up the wet spots in the roads; I'll bet parts of Ontario are like that too. I also like to take it easy on the equipment, especially on a 50 year old piece of iron.
Lastly, some might question hanging a winch worth as much or more than the tractor it sits on. You will not break the winch, but 50 year old tractors will need repairs now and then, especially with the sometimes sudden stresses imposed on them in the woods. I've had Mr Murphy visit me a number of times.
simonmeridew
Yes, see my thread called "Murphy's other laws."
If I were selecting an old tractor specifically for logging, it wouldn't be any of the early Fords. Many others I might consider. Up around 1965 and onward the Fords grew some brawn. The ones from 55 to 65 were also better than the ones before then, in terms of abilities.
But if you already have one, you can use it.
Probaly,but it will be slow. We could haul out so much more with the NH 40 hp. I don't mean to say just hauling out,but no fooling around getting so stuck behind a rock and a stump. It also had a loader on it too.That helps out too.Haul rocks into a wet hole on the way up. Instead of getting the trailer hauling rocks for a day than go back to cutting wood. I know many work with a 2wd drive,but man, a 4wd is just so much easier to work in the works with. But no matter what get a winch. That's what really makes things not just faster but so much easier. We use to use just chains right up until '93. Than we got the NH with a Norse winch.That makes it fun again. We paid for the tractor and winch a couple times.
Quote from: Okrafarmer on February 09, 2012, 10:19:04 PM
Yes, see my thread called "Murphy's other laws."
If I were selecting an old tractor specifically for logging, it wouldn't be any of the early Fords. Many others I might consider. Up around 1965 and onward the Fords grew some brawn. The ones from 55 to 65 were also better than the ones before then, in terms of abilities.
But if you already have one, you can use it.
So....what other one's would you consider??? 8) 8)
The criteria for a good skidding tractor, 2-wheel-drive:
1. large rear tires. 38" rims preferably. good tread.
2. low center of gravity for its stance. (low utilities are best around hills)
3. rugged build
4. low first gear
5. Nimbleness, especially based on good quality individual rear wheel brakes, tight turning radius, power steering a plus
6. live hydraulics (including 3ph)
7. Preferably should weigh at least two tons, 3 is better
8. known for reliability, or at least commonality of parts
9. have good sturdy 3-point hitch
10. Right-handed hand clutch is best, or use a panic kill switch
11. Economical purchase price (not over-valued as collector item)
Tractor models that have all of these features, either standard, or as options, include the John Deere models 50, 60, and 70.
Tractors featuring many of these features include
Ford 3000, 4000, 5000, 3600, 4600, 5600
International Super M, Super H, 300, 400 series, 340, 460, 404, 504
Oliver 77, Super 77, 88, Super 88, 770, 550, Super 55, 1600, 1550, 1650
Minneapolis Moline Z series, U series
Massey Harris or Ferguson 50, 65, 135, 150, 165, F40
Allis Chalmers D-14, D-17, D-15
Case 700 series and maybe a few others-- most Case I think would be unwieldy
David Brown 880, 885, 990, 995
John Deere 40, 420, 520, 620, 430, 530, 630, A, B, G, 1020, 1520, 2020, 1530, 2030, 2630
Here is a neat video I came across. Not sure, but I believe that is an NAA. Seeing how easily he was handling that walnut log, I am sure he could have safely pulled the entire tree out of the woods if the limbs were off. However, he may have had no need for the top and may have not been planning to go back for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2CHZq3Srg8&feature=related
And here is another one. Massey Ferguson 65. Don't worry, it starts sideways, but then the camera is flipped back up.
Some observations of this video:
They did not limb the trees before moving them. They may have had their own reasons for why they did so, but the two trees together were too heavy for the tractor / winch combination. It was working at or near maximum capacity.
Also notice that the heavy winch puts too much weight too far back on the tractor, making the front end very light. That means you have to steer almost exclusively with your foot brakes when pulling a heavy load. However, one big plus of having the winch on the back of there is that it seems to make it nearly impossible for the tractor to flip over backward.
The man was able to use the winch to pull the logs along when the wheels had poor traction. That is the big great thing about a winch, being able to pull logs to the tractor from far away. That is a luxury I never had while tractor logging.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtGjpQRHQXU&feature=related
Probaly an NAA like we used or a Jubilee. We could haul one out like that,but ours trails weren't some nice smooth grass road either. He wrapped chains around the top link too.Wonder where that tree came from too? Looked like it grew right in the road.Looked like they never used the road before that either. Was a nice looking tractor. Ours was always outside and had a few dents on it. I noticed the rear fender looked like ours.
That second video is a hard twitch. those limbs will really hold you back. The winch looks almost like the one I have on my 40 hp NH, a Norse winch. If it was,it kinda big for that tractor. I like to see those old tractors work.
At times it's just as easy on the equipment and sometimes even quicker to drop a tree or 2 and leave it for next time.
I agree, the winch did look too big for the tractor. The Massey 65 is rugged enough for this kind of thing, though. A fairly good choice tractor for logging.
Quote from: Okrafarmer on February 13, 2012, 12:42:40 AM
They did not limb the trees before moving them. They may have had their own reasons for why they did so, but the two trees together were too heavy for the tractor / winch combination. It was working at or near maximum capacity.
He probably didn't want to leave the limbs in his open field, and didn't want to come back and clean them up later. Saves a bit of time if you can take the whole thing to it's final destination. That might not have been possible if the tree were back in the woods... too many things for the limbs to hang up on. But it worked for him here.
I do agree... a bit too much to take in one twitch for his set-up, but I guess he gets away with it on that flat open land.
I have a 1956 JD-620 with 3PH, live hydraulics, live PTO, power steering, 13.6 x 38 tires and it is a pulling machine! I actually bought it because of the sound, there is just something about a 2 cylinder engine with over 300 cubic inches and making its torque at under 1,000 rpm that appeals to me. I also have a 1988 JD-2355 4X4 with a loader for the really serious work but the older 620 is more nimble and just more fun.
Those long stroked 2banger JD's are great engines! They can flat get with it and pull.
two nice videos. thanks
the rear end of the first one looked like my 8N. wheel size, axle hubs etc. Also the PTO cover was the original little one, with the original PTO shaft, inch and an eighth, instead of the now standard inch and a quarter, bigger diameter and longer, which you MUST have with any modern PTO operated implement. You can get adapters, which break after a little use, or you can put in a new PTO shaft, probably $129. at Just8ns.com, and it'll go in the tractor in about 15 minutes--tilt the tractor down a steep hill and the hydraulic fluid stays put--but the hood on the first one wasn't 8N, maybe a jubilee '53. Doesn't matter nice tractor, nice woods, nice road.
second video: the limbs on that twitch wouldn't work in my woods. The manual for my winch says rather than pull a heavy load from the top pulley, you're better off hitching each log on a separate chain and putting each chain thru the notches provided on the back of the winch. They pick up better and don't pull so high on the back of the tractor plus no big strain on the pulley as the logs bounce along. Less front end rise. My estimate would be the log in the first video weighed more than the two in the second video would have weighed with the limbs trimmed. Maybe even with the limbs on. I can't say every hitch I pull is straightforward, and I don't want someone videotaping me, but the operator looked a little awkward from the getgo in that video.
simonmeridew
gspren, your JD 620 would be a logging hoss in the woods. I didn't put it down as one of the ideal ones ONLY because it is considered more of a collector's item than the earlier model 60-- therefore buying one is more costly for essentially the same tractor with a little more power and a snazzier paint job. But if I had to choose any model of antique tractor to use in the woods, it would be a JD 60, 620, or 630. Of course it might be fun to see what kind of white oaks a 720 diesel could pull out, but that would be too embarrassing to the neighbors running skidders.... :-[
And you are right, the 620 is very nimble even for its size-- the power steering makes a huge difference. Do you have a picture of your tractor? Which front end configuration do you have on it? I really prefer the Roll-o-Matic front for use in the woods.
This one cracks me up. It's lengthy and gets off to a slow start, but it does give you kind of a feel for what it's like to go tractor logging in the winter. The hitching action takes place around the 5 minute mark or so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzAWsHgiDEc
One of the unique things about this video is that the driver is "talented" enough to drive the tractor and the camera at once... not sure if that's very safe.... :-\ but anyway, it does give you the driver's seat perspective.
He uses a David Brown 880-- a venerable little British tractor that was popular in Maine when I was a kid-- later the company was absorbed into Case. Not a bad little tractor, but like many utility tractors the tires are kind of small, meaning less traction.
He does what a lot of people do-- it seems that he attaches the log to the drawbar. It's easy to do. Notice that the log is quite small, and yet the funniest part of the whole video is at the end when we see that his drawbar pull method did not gain him any traction, as he would have gotten if he had used the 3-point to lift the front of the log up. He spins out at the end of the video, and backs up to try to get another shot. That doesn't work, and his log comes unhooked. He could have avoided that scenario if he had lifted the front of the log with the 3ph. Also, the David Brown's smallish rear tires don't help the traction issue either. Whatever size of tires you have, you will do best with good sharp deep tread on your tires if you are working in snow, mud, or soft ground. Bare frozen ground, ice, rock, and pavement do better with a finer tread with more but smaller lugs on the tire.
If he had lifted his log, he probably never would have gotten stuck at the end-- that's the point with this vid.
We cut corn silage every year with our neighbors and until this year they both ran 730 JD diesels and they pull along side the cutter (which I run) when filling the wagons, I love the sound of those tractors! One thing JD definitely got right on the 2 cylinders was the weight to HP ratio, they'll pull the guts out of anything, but if I was looking for something to log with I think I'd look for something closer to the 4010/4020. More money I know but 2-3 x the tractor also.
The problem with a 4010 / 4020 is that they don't have enough traction for their power and weight. Unless you are on firm ground, you're wasting about 30-50% of your tractor. Now, if you do have adequately big tires, it is true that you will be able to pull out most any log that comes along east of the Rockies. But if you are logging small logs, you will need a winch and full set of choker cables to be efficient. Then you could pull out a twitch comparable to a small skidder, at least on flat ground. I don't like the post-1960 Waterloo tractors in the woods on rough terrain because they are quite top-heavy with their upright engines and tall stance. (the same is a major problem for most Farmall tractors). The fiberglass hoods are quite flimsy and can't take much abuse. If you use one of these tractors, be sure to spread your rear wheels out wide and keep your load low. Big tractors like a 4020 are harder to maneuver in the woods, too, especially if they have a wide front end, so it's a little more difficult. They are not tough like a skidder, to just break down saplings left and right, and they are not small enough to just sneak between stuff easily. But if you're careful, you can manage. And pull out some serious logs.
Quote from: Okrafarmer on February 13, 2012, 10:03:35 PM
gspren, your JD 620 would be a logging hoss in the woods. I didn't put it down as one of the ideal ones ONLY because it is considered more of a collector's item than the earlier model 60-- therefore buying one is more costly for essentially the same tractor with a little more power and a snazzier paint job. But if I had to choose any model of antique tractor to use in the woods, it would be a JD 60, 620, or 630. Of course it might be fun to see what kind of white oaks a 720 diesel could pull out, but that would be too embarrassing to the neighbors running skidders.... :-[
And you are right, the 620 is very nimble even for its size-- the power steering makes a huge difference. Do you have a picture of your tractor? Which front end configuration do you have on it? I really prefer the Roll-o-Matic front for use in the woods.
I have the Roll-O-Matic, narrow front. I am not a logger but I have about 30 acres of woods plus fence rows and some of the pasture has trees so I get plenty of chances to drag logs. I need to learn how to get pictures off of the camera and on to the computer and then how to post them, I just haven't taken the time to fool with it.
If the last one was slow and boring, then how about this fast-paced man of quick business. This video was nicely edited.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kU1BtvFEjc
The tractor is an Oliver 1950T, in the same zip code as a John Deere 4020 for size and power-- if anything, a little more powerful. Roughly 100 or 105 hp. This man "procedes at the rate of business" as one of my old bosses would have said. He has chosen speed over large hauls, and he is another one of these people pulling the entire tree out without limbing. This is fine, especially if you plan to cut it up for firewood-- waste not, want not. He is also using the drawbar-- when using a tractor that big and a load that light, there is no particular need to lift the end of the log off the ground-- EXCEPT that the front of the log can snag on stumps. Here the man is roaring down a level runway at takeoff speed, and that is ok, because it is nice and smooth. I daresay he could pull two of those unlimbed trees instead of one, with the wide open flat conditions he has there.
If you are simply fetching a few logs for your own firewood, efficiency can be optional. But if you want to be logging for sales, a big tractor like that one can bring in the bucks if you use a winch and pull 10-15 limbed trees at once. Or fewer, if they are really big ones.
And here is another guy using his drawbar to pull a log. This time it appears to be a John Deere 3010, circa 65 hp. Since he does not have a nice blanket of snow and ice and frozen ground to keep the log from digging in, he is plowing up dirt. This is not good because dirt is bad for sawmills. How better it would have been for him to lift the front of the log off the ground and not get it as dirty. He also would have had plenty of tractive force to pull the entire limbed tree out, not just the first log.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92taygJ4BzY
And here is another method. We used to do this before 3-point skidding. This is a lowly 38-hp John Deere A, a model-size bigger than the 27-hp model B I cut my teeth on. They look very similar. As you can see, the trailer has just about maxed the A out. But that is a massive amount of wood, and not just a couple of spindly logs. Looks like a crane is on the trailer to lift the wood up. Also notice that the pack mule Model A is laboring under difficult terrain, and not a flat smooth logging road. The John Deere 2-cylinder tractors are serious workers, and that is why they are at the top of my list. The reason I did not list the model A as an ideal logging tractor is because it does not have live hydraulics, and has no provision for power steering. The Model A was replaced by the Model 60, which is on my list of ideal logging tractors, and does have live hydraulics and optional power steering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPUMqkPznNg&feature=endscreen&NR=1
Even the baby Farmall Cub can get it on the action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrQAuQJqwSk&feature=endscreen&NR=1
Cubs are very small and can get in little itty bitty spaces. But I would not recommend buying one for the purpose of logging. But if you have one, you can do a little with it. That is what my Grandfather used. It is about the right size to make good use of one of those Logrite arches like some of you use with your 4-wheelers. Cubs are asymmetric cultivating tractors-- the engine and drive train are offset to the left. You should not use Cubs or other asymmetric tractors on steep hillsides. If you do, be sure to keep the engine side uphill.
Here's a 76-year-old steel-wheeler getting in on the action-- seems like it may need the carburetor adjusted. Old tractors never die, they just get new owners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cTWscXzy0k
Ha! This character is hilarious. Reminds me of some of my neighbors. Watch how he "discovers" pulling logs with a tractor. He does quite well for a beginner. Just love the running commentary. He cracks me up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c4JEmE_ryE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rplJgFOdkA&feature=related
He uses the small John Deere M, which is slightly smaller than a Ford 8N. Notice that it actually does quite well with the great big hickory log. Hickory is one of the heaviest woods we have in the US. He did a drawbar pull with long chain (awkward, but he did all right). The model M is too small, and has too small of wheels for me to recommend it for serious logging, but notice that even baby tractors like the M can account for themselves quite well.
Oh thanks a lot Okra, now I want a M ;). I grew up on 2 cylinders and 4010/20's and my cousin has a little 40 that's cuter tan a bug's ear, but that little M is just cool. I've never been around the old Olivers much but always heard they were a good tractor and have always wanted one....for reasons unknown I guess (other than to say I have one). We used to have a JD 60 and it didn't have power steering, our 70 diesel did from factory, but more often than not wished it didn't have it. You could get power steering for them from Behlen MFG. in Columbus Ne. which usually worked much better than the factory units but now I'm sure you'd have to find used units being all these tractors are "antiques" now. Doesn't matter the brand, those old tractors are still some of the best runners and pullers made, thanks for the videos.
Dragging the logs so they dig up the dirt is also bad for the ground. Every time it rains,the water will stay in that dug up place and keep the ground soft. Than if you drove through it,it stirs up the mud and you go deeper. My Father was VERY fussy with this. If the log was too big and we could not get it up in the air enough with the hyds we would saw about half way through the log about 2 feet and use some iron wedges and a sledge hammer and split that piece. Than we would put the draw bar under the split out piece and chain it to the bar.This made it so there was no turning of the log also. But we never took out more than one at a time this way. Logging with just chains and hyd arms you are lucky to get 2 out at a time. Hard to get good size logs just right. Just as easy to take one and come back. Easy on your body that way.
I would not mind having a smaller tractor too out in the woods. I have a 40 hp NH now. Works good,but have to cut roads to get around most of the time.We use to have a small BX 1800,18hp. I use to put our garden tractor on it and sneak around the woods with it. I have one piece that is pretty smooth and not that rocky. I cleaned up alot with that, Never hauled much,but it got the job done. Not like I, was getting paid by the cord. I did not have to really cut any trees because they was in the way. My Uncle had a cub,but they brought every thing out on a trailer,probably due to no hyds on the back and probably they could haul more out at one time.
Couple of older pics of me skidding a Soft Maple log with my NH 2120. Some don't like pulling on the top link, never had any problems.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11524/skidding2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11524/skidding3.jpg)
Ed
Took a nervous break down or got burt out in the office. I am some glad I worked with my father in the woods from 14 years old to 20 because I went back to doing what I liked. I now am playing in the woods with my L 4740 and wallenstine logging winch. When the going is good I cut 5 white birch trees 10 to 14 inch at the butt and drag them out with my tractor and winch. Three loads I have about a cord of wood. It takes me about 45 minutes to haul a cord 1000 feet. I have a bucket and a set of forks and load them up with each twitch. The loaded forks or buck adds up at the end of the day and keeps the tractor from rearing up. Never had any problems but always played it safe and took it easy. I do make sure I have a good road to travel on by either cutting the stumps low or digging them out. I also plan where the road is going before cutting because yes you are restricted some when using a tractor.
I enjoy being in the woods and I cannot wait until the snow level here in NewBrunswick goes down enough so I can cut some more firewood.
Enjoy.
Nice pictures, Ed!
Green Acres, sounds like you are working fairly efficiently there. Good to hear.