Skidding logs with a tractor

[thecfarm]

He did it the right way,slow and safe. Probaly could of hauled more,I'm sure it would of. We had a few corners to take, and a few small knolls and many rocks to go over. My father always drove the tractor. Probably knowing him and our land he was in 1st gear alot coming out with a log behind him. I forgot that part.

[Okrafarmer]

Sorry, my tone was not very nice in the last post.  :-[  I was (inexcusably) in a bad mood based on something in my life totally unrelated, and I appologize.

To clarify, you should always be safe. Also, the terrain and your experience level have a lot to do with how much you can take at one time. And he said hard maples, not red maples. The ones I was thinking were red maples, which are a little lighter than hard maples. Still, if the terrain were not too difficult, the 8N should have been able to at least handle the two logs he mentioned in one trip with no problems. Leaving your logs long usually works pretty well, and saves time. If you have a log that is too long or too heavy for your tractor and situation, then you will usually be able to tell and that is when it is time to cut it in two and make two trips.  ;) But a lot of people just assume they have to cut their tree into the logs they will use, back in the woods, and then pull them all out, when it is easier to pull it out tree-length if the tractor will handle it.

[Okrafarmer]

Lumberjack, an Allis Chalmers B was my first personal tractor. I bought it for $450 when I was 13.  8)

[Tdawg]

Simon, thanks for all the info. I'm familiar with your neck of the woods (it looks a lot like mine), so I know the kind of timber you're pulling. Does the 8N have enough oomph to support a skidding winch? The lot I'm buying is way too thick to be trying to back up over the logs. I'll need a winch regardless of what I use to drag them out.

Thanks,
Terry

[simonmeridew]

Tdawg
I have had a Farmi winch on my Kubota L4400 (44horsepower).for the past 6 years. It's the medium sized winch, I think the most popular and common size unit, and as I said in the first post, makes it much safer to log, as well as convenient. I've never tried the winch on my 8N but I'm sure it would work, and the 3pth on the 8N is plenty strong enough to lift the winch. But it does represent maybe 600 pounds of dead weight hanging off the back of your tractor, so there's 600 pounds less log you can pick up. I think I can recall hitches of logs that the 3pth wouldn't fully lift(no winch, just the drawbar) on my 8N, that may have been weak hydraulic mechanism, or mechanism out of adjustment(safety valves get weak and wear out frequently in the 8N but are easy to change if you don't mind plunging your hand blindly into 6 inches of hydraulic oil and unscrewing it.)

You might consider looking at the smaller size Farmi type winch; it's smaller and lighter, a little less pull but if you're not worried  about time and motion testing, it will be very satisfactory I'm sure.

Another consideration with an older tractor like the 8N is that when you winch a log towards you, there is considerable tendency of the tractor to be pulled backwards at the same time(see Newton's Laws). This is despite the winch having a blade that digs into the dirt when you drop the 3pth lift lever. So you need to have a good functional parking brake to keep the tractor still. The 8N parking brake is awkward at best, and sometimes very tricky to disingage. Many times I drop the Kubota's front end bucket as an additional drag when winching. If the ground is frozen like it is now without much snow the winch blade doesn't dig in at all so you need to set the parking brake and get what you can from the tire chains.

No offense taken Okrafarmer, my woodlot has a couple of sharp(close radius) turns in some of the roads and when I pull out long balsum fir  or white spruce trees I normally skid them out tree length; they sort of bend around rocks, stumps trees and other obstructions, but if I have a nice maple or yellow birch log that I don't want to bugger up I try to cut it to length, then skid it out. Vermont is also home of the sidehill swamp, and our mud season lasts till things dry up in July and too much weight really digs up the wet spots in the roads; I'll bet parts of Ontario are like that too. I also like to take it easy on the equipment, especially on a 50 year old piece of iron.

Lastly, some might question hanging a winch worth as much or more than the tractor it sits on. You will not break the winch, but 50 year old tractors will need repairs now and then, especially with the sometimes sudden stresses imposed on them in the woods. I've had Mr Murphy visit me a number of times.
simonmeridew

[Okrafarmer]

Yes, see my thread called "Murphy's other laws."

If I were selecting an old tractor specifically for logging, it wouldn't be any of the early Fords. Many others I might consider. Up around 1965 and onward the Fords grew some brawn. The ones from 55 to 65 were also better than the ones before then, in terms of abilities.

But if you already have one, you can use it.

[thecfarm]

Probaly,but it will be slow. We could haul out so much more with the NH 40 hp. I don't mean to say just hauling out,but no fooling around getting so stuck behind a rock and a stump. It also had a loader on it too.That helps out too.Haul rocks into a wet hole on the way up. Instead of getting the trailer hauling rocks for a day than go back to cutting wood. I know many work with a 2wd drive,but man, a 4wd is just so much easier to work in the works with. But no matter what get a winch. That's what really makes things not just faster but so much easier. We use to use just chains right up until '93. Than we got the NH with a Norse winch.That makes it fun again. We paid for the tractor and winch a couple times.

[Tdawg]

Yes, see my thread called "Murphy's other laws."

If I were selecting an old tractor specifically for logging, it wouldn't be any of the early Fords. Many others I might consider. Up around 1965 and onward the Fords grew some brawn. The ones from 55 to 65 were also better than the ones before then, in terms of abilities.

But if you already have one, you can use it.

So....what other one's would you consider??? 8) 8)

[Okrafarmer]

The criteria for a good skidding tractor, 2-wheel-drive:

1. large rear tires. 38" rims preferably. good tread.
2. low center of gravity for its stance. (low utilities are best around hills)
3. rugged build
4. low first gear
5. Nimbleness, especially based on good quality individual rear wheel brakes, tight turning radius, power steering a plus
6. live hydraulics (including 3ph)
7. Preferably should weigh at least two tons, 3 is better
8. known for reliability, or at least commonality of parts
9. have good sturdy 3-point hitch
10. Right-handed hand clutch is best, or use a panic kill switch
11. Economical purchase price (not over-valued as collector item)

Tractor models that have all of these features, either standard, or as options, include the John Deere models 50, 60, and 70.

Tractors featuring many of these features include
Ford 3000, 4000, 5000, 3600, 4600, 5600
International Super M, Super H, 300, 400 series, 340, 460, 404, 504
Oliver 77, Super 77, 88, Super 88, 770, 550, Super 55, 1600, 1550, 1650
Minneapolis Moline Z series, U series
Massey Harris or  Ferguson 50, 65, 135, 150, 165, F40
Allis Chalmers D-14, D-17, D-15
Case 700 series and maybe a few others-- most Case I think would be unwieldy
David Brown 880, 885, 990, 995
John Deere 40, 420, 520, 620, 430, 530, 630, A, B, G, 1020, 1520, 2020, 1530, 2030, 2630

[Okrafarmer]

Here is a neat video I came across. Not sure, but I believe that is an NAA. Seeing how easily he was handling that walnut log, I am sure he could have safely pulled the entire tree out of the woods if the limbs were off. However, he may have had no need for the top and may have not been planning to go back for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2CHZq3Srg8&feature=related

[Okrafarmer]

And here is another one. Massey Ferguson 65. Don't worry, it starts sideways, but then the camera is flipped back up.

Some observations of this video:

They did not limb the trees before moving them. They may have had their own reasons for why they did so, but the two trees together were too heavy for the tractor / winch combination. It was working at or near maximum capacity.

Also notice that the heavy winch puts too much weight too far back on the tractor, making the front end very light. That means you have to steer almost exclusively with your foot brakes when pulling a heavy load. However, one big plus of having the winch on the back of there is that it seems to make it nearly impossible for the tractor to flip over backward.

The man was able to use the winch to pull the logs along when the wheels had poor traction. That is the big great thing about a winch, being able to pull logs to the tractor from far away. That is a luxury I never had while tractor logging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtGjpQRHQXU&feature=related

[thecfarm]

Probaly an NAA like we used or a Jubilee. We could haul one out like that,but ours trails weren't some nice smooth grass road either. He wrapped chains around the top link too.Wonder where that tree came from too? Looked like it grew right in the road.Looked like they never used the road before that either. Was a nice looking tractor. Ours was always outside and had a few dents on it. I noticed the rear fender looked like ours.
That second video is a hard twitch. those limbs will really hold you back. The winch looks almost like the one I have on my 40 hp NH, a Norse winch. If it was,it kinda big for that tractor. I like to see those old tractors work.
At times it's just as easy on the equipment and sometimes even quicker to drop a tree or 2 and leave it for next time.

[Okrafarmer]

I agree, the winch did look too big for the tractor. The Massey 65 is rugged enough for this kind of thing, though. A fairly good choice tractor for logging.

[John Mc]

They did not limb the trees before moving them. They may have had their own reasons for why they did so, but the two trees together were too heavy for the tractor / winch combination. It was working at or near maximum capacity.

He probably didn't want to leave the limbs in his open field, and didn't want to come back and clean them up later. Saves a bit of time if you can take the whole thing to it's final destination. That might not have been possible if the tree were back in the woods... too many things for the limbs to hang up on. But it worked for him here.

I do agree... a bit too much to take in one twitch for his set-up, but I guess he gets away with it on that flat open land.

[gspren]

I have a 1956 JD-620 with 3PH, live hydraulics, live PTO, power steering, 13.6 x 38 tires and  it is a pulling machine! I actually bought it because of the sound, there is just something about a 2 cylinder engine with over 300 cubic inches and making its torque at under 1,000 rpm that appeals to me. I also have a 1988 JD-2355 4X4 with a loader for the really serious work but the older 620 is more nimble and just more fun.

[mad murdock]

Those long stroked 2banger JD's are great engines!  They can flat get with it and pull. 

[simonmeridew]

two nice videos. thanks
the rear end of the first one looked like my 8N. wheel size, axle hubs etc. Also the PTO cover was the original little one, with the original PTO shaft, inch and an eighth, instead of the now standard inch and  a quarter, bigger diameter and longer, which you MUST have with any modern PTO operated implement. You can get adapters, which break after a little use, or you can put in a new PTO shaft, probably $129. at Just8ns.com, and it'll go in the tractor in about 15 minutes--tilt the tractor down a steep hill and the hydraulic fluid stays put--but the hood on the first one wasn't 8N, maybe a jubilee '53. Doesn't matter nice tractor, nice woods, nice road.

second video: the limbs on that twitch wouldn't work in my woods. The manual for my winch says rather than pull a heavy load from the top pulley, you're better off hitching each log on a separate chain and putting each chain thru the notches provided on the back of the winch.  They pick up better and don't pull so high on the back of the tractor plus no big strain on the pulley as the logs bounce along. Less front end rise. My estimate would be the log in the first video weighed more than the two in the second video would have weighed with the limbs trimmed. Maybe even with the limbs on. I can't say every hitch I pull is straightforward, and I don't want someone videotaping me, but the operator looked a little awkward from the getgo in that video.
simonmeridew

[Okrafarmer]

gspren, your JD 620 would be a logging hoss in the woods. I didn't put it down as one of the ideal ones ONLY because it is considered more of a collector's item than the earlier model 60-- therefore buying one is more costly for essentially the same tractor with a little more power and a snazzier paint job. But if I had to choose any model of antique tractor to use in the woods, it would be a JD 60, 620, or 630. Of course it might be fun to see what kind of white oaks a 720 diesel could pull out, but that would be too embarrassing to the neighbors running skidders....  :-[

And you are right, the 620 is very nimble even for its size-- the power steering makes a huge difference. Do you have a picture of your tractor? Which front end configuration do you have on it? I really prefer the Roll-o-Matic front for use in the woods.

[Okrafarmer]

This one cracks me up. It's lengthy and gets off to a slow start, but it does give you kind of a feel for what it's like to go tractor logging in the winter. The hitching action takes place around the 5 minute mark or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzAWsHgiDEc

One of the unique things about this video is that the driver is "talented" enough to drive the tractor and the camera at once... not sure if that's very safe....  :-\  but anyway, it does give you the driver's seat perspective.

He uses a David Brown 880-- a venerable little British tractor that was popular in Maine when I was a kid-- later the company was absorbed into Case. Not a bad little tractor, but like many utility tractors the tires are kind of small, meaning less traction.

He does what a lot of people do-- it seems that he attaches the log to the drawbar. It's easy to do. Notice that the log is quite small, and yet the funniest part of the whole video is at the end when we see that his drawbar pull method did not gain him any traction, as he would have gotten if he had used the 3-point to lift the front of the log up. He spins out at the end of the video, and backs up to try to get another shot. That doesn't work, and his log comes unhooked. He could have avoided that scenario if he had lifted the front of the log with the 3ph. Also, the David Brown's smallish rear tires don't help the traction issue either. Whatever size of tires you have, you will do best with good sharp deep tread on your tires if you are working in snow, mud, or soft ground. Bare frozen ground, ice, rock, and pavement do better with a finer tread with more but smaller lugs on the tire.

If he had lifted his log, he probably never would have gotten stuck at the end-- that's the point with this vid.

[sandhills]

We cut corn silage every year with our neighbors and until this year they both ran 730 JD diesels and they pull along side the cutter (which I run) when filling the wagons, I love the sound of those tractors!  One thing JD definitely got right on the 2 cylinders was the weight to HP ratio, they'll pull the guts out of anything, but if I was looking for something to log with I think I'd look for something closer to the 4010/4020.  More money I know but 2-3 x the tractor also.

[Okrafarmer]

The problem with a 4010 / 4020 is that they don't have enough traction for their power and weight. Unless you are on firm ground, you're wasting about 30-50% of your tractor. Now, if you do have adequately big tires, it is true that you will be able to pull out most any log that comes along east of the Rockies. But if you are logging small logs, you will need a winch and full set of choker cables to be efficient. Then you could pull out a twitch comparable to a small skidder, at least on flat ground. I don't like the post-1960 Waterloo tractors in the woods on rough terrain because they are quite top-heavy with their upright engines and tall stance. (the same is a major problem for most Farmall tractors). The fiberglass hoods are quite flimsy and can't take much abuse. If you use one of these tractors, be sure to spread your rear wheels out wide and keep your load low. Big tractors like a 4020 are harder to maneuver in the woods, too, especially if they have a wide front end, so it's a little more difficult. They are not tough like a skidder, to just break down saplings left and right, and they are not small enough to just sneak between stuff easily. But if you're careful, you can manage. And pull out some serious logs.

[gspren]

gspren, your JD 620 would be a logging hoss in the woods. I didn't put it down as one of the ideal ones ONLY because it is considered more of a collector's item than the earlier model 60-- therefore buying one is more costly for essentially the same tractor with a little more power and a snazzier paint job. But if I had to choose any model of antique tractor to use in the woods, it would be a JD 60, 620, or 630. Of course it might be fun to see what kind of white oaks a 720 diesel could pull out, but that would be too embarrassing to the neighbors running skidders....  :-[

And you are right, the 620 is very nimble even for its size-- the power steering makes a huge difference. Do you have a picture of your tractor? Which front end configuration do you have on it? I really prefer the Roll-o-Matic front for use in the woods.

I have the Roll-O-Matic, narrow front. I am not a logger but I have about 30 acres of woods plus fence rows and some of the pasture has trees so I get plenty of chances to drag logs. I need to learn how to get pictures off of the camera and on to the computer and then how to post them, I just haven't taken the time to fool with it.

[Okrafarmer]

If the last one was slow and boring, then how about this fast-paced man of quick business. This video was nicely edited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kU1BtvFEjc

The tractor is an Oliver 1950T, in the same zip code as a John Deere 4020 for size and power-- if anything, a little more powerful. Roughly 100 or 105 hp. This man "procedes at the rate of business" as one of my old bosses would have said. He has chosen speed over large hauls, and he is another one of these people pulling the entire tree out without limbing. This is fine, especially if you plan to cut it up for firewood-- waste not, want not. He is also using the drawbar-- when using a tractor that big and a load that light, there is no particular need to lift the end of the log off the ground-- EXCEPT that the front of the log can snag on stumps. Here the man is roaring down a level runway at takeoff speed, and that is ok, because it is nice and smooth. I daresay he could pull two of those unlimbed trees instead of one, with the wide open flat conditions he has there.

If you are simply fetching a few logs for your own firewood, efficiency can be optional. But if you want to be logging for sales, a big tractor like that one can bring in the bucks if you use a winch and pull 10-15 limbed trees at once. Or fewer, if they are really big ones.

[Okrafarmer]

And here is another guy using his drawbar to pull a log. This time it appears to be a John Deere 3010, circa 65 hp. Since he does not have a nice blanket of snow and ice and frozen ground to keep the log from digging in, he is plowing up dirt. This is not good because dirt is bad for sawmills. How better it would have been for him to lift the front of the log off the ground and not get it as dirty. He also would have had plenty of tractive force to pull the entire limbed tree out, not just the first log.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92taygJ4BzY

[Okrafarmer]

And here is another method. We used to do this before 3-point skidding. This is a lowly 38-hp John Deere A, a model-size bigger than the 27-hp model B I cut my teeth on. They look very similar. As you can see, the trailer has just about maxed the A out. But that is a massive amount of wood, and not just a couple of spindly logs. Looks like a crane is on the trailer to lift the wood up. Also notice that the pack mule Model A is laboring under difficult terrain, and not a flat smooth logging road.  The John Deere 2-cylinder tractors are serious workers, and that is why they are at the top of my list. The reason I did not list the model A as an ideal logging tractor is because it does not have live hydraulics, and has no provision for power steering. The Model A was replaced by the Model 60, which is on my list of ideal logging tractors, and does have live hydraulics and optional power steering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPUMqkPznNg&feature=endscreen&NR=1