well, it's been a while, but I'm sawing again. I had a rather lengthy tread back a little less than a year ago. In which yall tried to explain to me how to straighten out all the flaws in my homemade mill build. I'm a little hard headed so it takes me longer than most...
Building sawmill (newbie) in Sawmills and Milling (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,83266.60.html)
Anyway, haven't used the mill much in several months, but cranked it up a couple of weeks ago to saw up some pecan. Planning to build a bar and chairs out of it.
My mill is a tire mill, and I still have trouble tracking the blade and keeping it on my guides when I tighten the tension down as tight as I think it should be. The blade runs off the front. I'm sure it's in my tire alignment, but I can't get it aligned where it should be to run at the tension id like. I'm thinking at some point I would like to go to bandsaw wheels instead of tires.
Has anyone switched from tires to regular band wheels? Or, does anyone have good pictures of how they attached bandsaw wheels to their frame?
Where can you buy inexpensive wheels?
What is the minimum size that you can use? 14" 16" etc. ?
Is the width across the thickness of the wheel crucial? (Could a 1-1/4 blade ride on a wheel that is 3/4" wide?
Lots of questions i know! Thanks in advance for the help!
Looking at the first pic on your old tread I don't think your frame is strong enough between the band wheels and is most likely flexing some when tensioning up your blades. Steve
If you go to E-bay and type Band saw wheels you will se a lot of them for sale.
Different ones has different mounting holes. Some people use double V-belt
pulleys with tight fitting belts in them
Quote from: ladylake on January 24, 2016, 06:24:17 AM
Looking at the first pic on your old tread I don't think your frame is strong enough between the band wheels and is most likely flexing some when tensioning up your blades. Steve
I thought the same thing, but in that tubing that runs across between the band wheels is a solid piece of square metal. I added it. There is also a piece of 1-1/2 angle that runs perpendicular to that tubing to the back brace on the frame.
All that being said, I do think something has to be flexing for the tracking to change when you tighten the tension. But I don't see how it can be the frame between the wheels with all this added support.
The only things I can figure is that either the axel on the drive wheel is flexing (it is the rear end off of a golf cart) or
The bearings inside the wheels are flexing. I don't know how to correct either of these...
What do you think? Any ideas?
Thanks!
I bought pulleys at Surplus center and use B57 belts. This has worked well for me
georg....
My homemade mill flexes if I put too much tension on the band. I can only go as tight as I can go. I have tried to beef mine up but believe it takes a pretty strong frame. It can tension alot higher when I turn it by hand but when I add power from the motor, the band wants to ride off the front of my mill. It you go with a pully system insted of tires, I believe you will still need to strengthen the frame where the pullies are attached. If you come up with an answer, I hope you post more pictures so I can steal some ideals. Mine is cutting just barely good enough that I can't work up the excitement to fix it further.
Good luck
gww
Quote from: DMcCoy on January 24, 2016, 10:18:04 PM
I bought pulleys at Surplus center and use B57 belts. This has worked well for me
And what kind of wheel do you have your band blade running on? What size? Where did you get it?
Thanks!
One thought would be that if you could get a shaft that went all the way through the wheel to a bar like you have it attached to in back put on front also, it would be stronger. Something like on these pages.
http://kruppt.tripod.com//reworked/index.html
Good luck
gww
Quote from: gww on January 24, 2016, 10:38:43 PM
One thought would be that if you could get a shaft that went all the way through the wheel to a bar like you have it attached to in back put on front also, it would be stronger. Something like on these pages.
http://kruppt.tripod.com//reworked/index.html
Good luck
gww
I like that idea. I want just trying to think of some way to connect a brace to the front. I think that would help. Would help hold axel and wheel bearings from flexing.
Any idea how they connected another shaft to the existing axel?
"And what kind of wheel do you have your band blade running on? What size? Where did you get it?"
DMcoy, is using pulley sheaves . and got them at surpluse center 18.5 . them are his band wheels.
G
I really have no ideal except a shaft all the way through the wheels on pillow block bearings. I would be carefull though cause you still need a way to change the blade pretty often and pretty easy. I found that site after I built mine and find retrofitting stuff pretty hard after something is built. I do like the ideal though. On my mill I have just bearings with the pully being part of the wheel and no shaft. Had I found this first I would have did it differrent. If you have a shaft and could bring it all the way through the wheel and just get rid of the wheel bearing it would be easy to build it. Then the problim would be the wheels being balanced perfectly on the shaft. Pillow blocks on each side of the wheel would be your bearings. I have never looked at golf cart bearings and so don't know how they are made. If you go to the home page of the page I posted a link of, it may have some instruction. I can't remember and haven't looked at it closely lately.
Good luck.
gww
Quote from: Georgia088 on January 24, 2016, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: ladylake on January 24, 2016, 06:24:17 AM
Looking at the first pic on your old tread I don't think your frame is strong enough between the band wheels and is most likely flexing some when tensioning up your blades. Steve
I thought the same thing, but in that tubing that runs across between the band wheels is a solid piece of square metal. I added it. There is also a piece of 1-1/2 angle that runs perpendicular to that tubing to the back brace on the frame.
All that being said, I do think something has to be flexing for the tracking to change when you tighten the tension. But I don't see how it can be the frame between the wheels with all this added support.
The only things I can figure is that either the axel on the drive wheel is flexing (it is the rear end off of a golf cart) or
The bearings inside the wheels are flexing. I don't know how to correct either of these...
What do you think? Any ideas?
Thanks!
I don't think a solid piece of metal inside a tube helps much, you really need something like a 3 x6 heavy wall tubing to support those wheels. Steve
These are what I used.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Pulleys/Split-Taper-Bushed-Bore-Pulleys/18-75-O-D-H-BUSHING-SINGLE-GROOVE-PULLEY-1-BKH190.axd
18.75" dia.
Doing the math you might think you could use B56 belts- Don't use B57
I used the largest shaft diameter allowed by the split taper bushings
I thing one of your problems is that your running your blade to far out on the shaft.
If you change to different wheels try to keep your band in next to your frame.
If I could figure out how to "beef" up mine from axle to axle on the front of mine, I would keep the tires. Does anyone know how the member dblair attached the bar on his mill? i found it on this thread and think it may work for me. I just don't know how he attached it? Is it just welded? Here is the link:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=64720.0
Thanks!
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 25, 2016, 07:49:53 AM
I thing one of your problems is that your running your blade to far out on the shaft.
If you change to different wheels try to keep your band in next to your frame.
I guess I should update my pictures. I changed the tires from the big fat golf cart tires to trailor tires. This did make the blade ride as close to the frame as I can get it and did help! But it is still apparently flexing and causing it to pull the non drive and/or drive wheel inward. This apparently makes the blade track outward.
Quote from: Georgia088 on January 25, 2016, 08:55:00 AM
.......
I guess I should update my pictures. ...................
Just don't remove any of them.. add new ones for us.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~7.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~8.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~9.jpg)
After more tinkering. I have concluded that both wheels are "toeing" in under the tension of the blade.
Any ideas how to "beef" it up?
Thanks!
Did you put a bearing at the other end of axle or is it floating? Might be that one tapered roller wheel bearing does not hold laterally when blade is tightened.
You could take two flat plates with four holes eaxh and bolt one each to the inside of each wheel.
Have a solid shaft welded to the center of each plate and true it up with a lathe.
Mount two pillar block bearings one on each shaft. Then bolt a long heavy duty turn
buckle fast to both bearings. This would give you an adjustable toe.
Quote from: MikeZ on January 25, 2016, 09:41:32 PM
Did you put a bearing at the other end of axle or is it floating? Might be that one tapered roller wheel bearing does not hold laterally when blade is tightened.
These were just the bearings that came with the wheel mount off of a golf cart. I just cut everything that attached the wheel to the golf cart and mounted it to steel plates on one side.
The other side is the actual read end off of the golf cart. "Chunk" and all. My motor turns the rear end of the golf cart which turns the drive wheel of the mill.
So the only bearings are the ones that were originally in the golf cart.
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 26, 2016, 04:13:22 AM
You could take two flat plates with four holes eaxh and bolt one each to the inside of each wheel.
Have a solid shaft welded to the center of each plate and true it up with a lathe.
Mount two pillar block bearings one on each shaft. Then bolt a long heavy duty turn
buckle fast to both bearings. This would give you an adjustable toe.
I see what you're saying for the non drive wheel. However, the drive wheel is connected to the rear end of a golf cart. It's the axle wheel bearing "chunk" and all. To do what you're saying to this side; I would have to eliminate all of this?
Thanks.
Quote from: DMcCoy on January 25, 2016, 07:47:32 AM
These are what I used.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Pulleys/Split-Taper-Bushed-Bore-Pulleys/18-75-O-D-H-BUSHING-SINGLE-GROOVE-PULLEY-1-BKH190.axd
18.75" dia.
Doing the math you might think you could use B56 belts- Don't use B57
I used the largest shaft diameter allowed by the split taper bushings
I would still like to figure out how to get mine working good with the tires I have on, but I am really considering going to the wheels like your set up DMcCoy.
So, you are saying do not use B56 belt, and DO use B57 belt Correct?
Also, what kind of bearing did you get to fit in the vpulley? and where did you get it?
I think I answered my own question is this what you got? http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Pulleys/Split-Taper-Bushed-Bore-Pulley-Hubs/1-25-KEYED-H-BUSHING-1-2913-125.axd
I assume that you would then just need a 1.25" shaft?
Thanks for all the help!
Nick
Quote from: Georgia088 on January 26, 2016, 05:22:41 AM
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 26, 2016, 04:13:22 AM
You could take two flat plates with four holes eaxh and bolt one each to the inside of each wheel.
Have a solid shaft welded to the center of each plate and true it up with a lathe.
Mount two pillar block bearings one on each shaft. Then bolt a long heavy duty turn
buckle fast to both bearings. This would give you an adjustable toe.
I see what you're saying for the non drive wheel. However, the drive wheel is connected to the rear end of a golf cart. It's the axle wheel bearing "chunk" and all. To do what you're saying to this side; I would have to eliminate all of this?
Thanks.
No you wouldnt... Did you ever see the homemade wheel weigh adapters sold on Ebay?
they bolt fast using the wheel lugs. A round shaft poles out to hang lifting weights on.
almost the same thing. Need a drawing ?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/plate.jpg)
This will extend your axle shaft out front.
K
If I ever decide to adress my mill, I could probly make something like what you say work for me also.
G....
It would depend on how your shaft came off your motor, but it came from the side and not the bottom, You could easily get rid of the golf cart trans and no longer have to worry about shifting up and down changing your blade speed. a solid shaft going through both tires would work well. If you have to keep the tranny you could still beef it up with what kbitz says on the front just like I could on mine if I found some longer lug bolts or used all thread.
This is why I read these threads, for the ideals that poeple like kbitz and others.
Cheers
gww
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 26, 2016, 09:17:33 AM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/plate.jpg)
This will extend your axle shaft out front.
Ah.... I got you. Just takes my brain a little longer. Can you buy them? Or could a local machine shop make them? There is no way I could make that and it be straight enough not to "wobble" all over the place!
Thanks!
The way I would make them is to remove your hubs and mount the up in a lathe chuck.
That would let you center everything up.
We cant post ebay listing here but a few people
make up brackets like this and sell them on ebay...
example
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/weight_bracket.jpg)
Quote from: Georgia088 on January 26, 2016, 08:39:06 AM
Quote from: DMcCoy on January 25, 2016, 07:47:32 AM
These are what I used.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Pulleys/Split-Taper-Bushed-Bore-Pulleys/18-75-O-D-H-BUSHING-SINGLE-GROOVE-PULLEY-1-BKH190.axd
18.75" dia.
Doing the math you might think you could use B56 belts- Don't use B57
I used the largest shaft diameter allowed by the split taper bushings
I would still like to figure out how to get mine working good with the tires I have on, but I am really considering going to the wheels like your set up DMcCoy.
So, you are saying do not use B56 belt, and DO use B57 belt Correct?
Also, what kind of bearing did you get to fit in the vpulley? and where did you get it? I think I answered my own question is this what you got?
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Pulleys/Split-Taper-Bushed-Bore-Pulley-Hubs/1-25-KEYED-H-BUSHING-1-2913-125.axd
I assume that you would then just need a 1.25" shaft?
Thanks for all the help!
Nick
Right the B56 is too small or tight. The B57 will go on and the band blade holds it in place during operation.
I used 1.25" shaft. Bearings are standard pillow blocks also from Surplus Center. I put 1 bearing on each side of the band wheel to avoid overhung loading from having both to one side. I created a sliding 'U' shaped frame, but square, out of square tubing, like a front bicycle fork, to hold the tensioning / adjustment side. The drive side is solid. I used a HF 4 ton power puller for hydraulic tensioning of the blade and this has worked well for me too.
Quote from: DMcCoy on January 26, 2016, 08:32:17 PM
Quote from: Georgia088 on January 26, 2016, 08:39:06 AM
Quote from: DMcCoy on January 25, 2016, 07:47:32 AM
These are what I used.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Pulleys/Split-Taper-Bushed-Bore-Pulleys/18-75-O-D-H-BUSHING-SINGLE-GROOVE-PULLEY-1-BKH190.axd
18.75" dia.
Doing the math you might think you could use B56 belts- Don't use B57
I used the largest shaft diameter allowed by the split taper bushings
I would still like to figure out how to get mine working good with the tires I have on, but I am really considering going to the wheels like your set up DMcCoy.
So, you are saying do not use B56 belt, and DO use B57 belt Correct?
Also, what kind of bearing did you get to fit in the vpulley? and where did you get it? I think I answered my own question is this what you got?
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Pulleys/Split-Taper-Bushed-Bore-Pulley-Hubs/1-25-KEYED-H-BUSHING-1-2913-125.axd
I assume that you would then just need a 1.25" shaft?
Thanks for all the help!
Nick
Right the B56 is too small or tight. The B57 will go on and the band blade holds it in place during operation.
I used 1.25" shaft. Bearings are standard pillow blocks also from Surplus Center. I put 1 bearing on each side of the band wheel to avoid overhung loading from having both to one side. I created a sliding 'U' shaped frame, but square, out of square tubing, like a front bicycle fork, to hold the tensioning / adjustment side. The drive side is solid. I used a HF 4 ton power puller for hydraulic tensioning of the blade and this has worked well for me too.
Thanks!!!
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 26, 2016, 03:20:46 PM
The way I would make them is to remove your hubs and mount the up in a lathe chuck.
That would let you center everything up.
We cant post ebay listing here but a few people
make up brackets like this and sell them on ebay...
example
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/weight_bracket.jpg)
I have no doubt my problem is the mill flexing and not allowing me to get the blades tight enough. I can put a new sharp blade on and it cuts great for 25-30 passes and then the boards start becoming "waivyier" and "waivyier" until they are unusable. I think this is because I can't tighten my blade tight enough. If i try both wheels flex and change the tracking of the blade
I would love to add the support you have on the front to mine.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't have a lathe. Would any local machine shop be able to do this accurately? I haven't been able to find them for sale on any site. But I do love the idea.
Thanks!
If you look on ebay and could figure out the bolt patern for the wheel hub, it would then be a case of buying all thread and a bunch of nuts and you could bolt them together like I do when I make wind turbines with nuts tightened against the respective hubs. The longer the distance of the all thread, the weaker it would be. I used 1/2 inch stainless all thread for the wind turbine and know it will fit in most trailer bearing lug holes. If you could find a front wheel drive wheel hub and shaft at a junk yard with matching holes, you might make it work but it would be lots more weight then what the sell on ebay. I always look for junk that fits the best I can make it and figure now that you know about what you want to do the junk is out there to make it happen. When you buy allthread, you will find that is not very cheep. It you had another golf cart hub and shaft, you might work something up with allthread to get it to work.
Page 18 of
http://scoraigwind.com/pirate%20oldies/Hugh%20Piggott%20Axial-flow%20PMG%20wind%20turbine%20May%202003.pdf
I know it is not the same but shows what I am trying to explain on putting two hubs together with allthread.
Hope this gives you some ideals.
gww
Gww...
Building wind turbines? That may have to be a conversation later on... That sounds pretty dang cool!
I like that idea... I should have the other two hubs from the golf cart used to make saw mill. As stated before I am a little slow... I am kinda understanding but haven't completely grasp it.
If I used another hub let's say on the drive side for the time being:
If I turned the two hubs 180 degrees from one another so they were facing each other. Drilled the studs out of the new hub. Attached the new hub facing the old hub and sandwiching the rim in between the two hubs...
Would this give me something on the front that I could attach a bracing bar to? Of course I would then have to do something similar to the other side (non drive side)...
That may make no sense and may not work at all just bouncing an idea around.
Thanks!
You maybe could put two adjustable caster type wheels on each side to help with the load.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/casters~1.jpg)
G.....
QuoteIf I used another hub let's say on the drive side for the time being:
If I turned the two hubs 180 degrees from one another so they were facing each other. Drilled the studs out of the new hub. Attached the new hub facing the old hub and sandwiching the rim in between the two hubs...
That is exactly what I was thinking of. I am not sure without the parts in hand, how heavy or strong it would be but that was the concept. The lugs on most wheel hubs just bang out and should not have to be drilled.
K
That is another interesting ideal and if there is room seems pretty simple. I wonder how much strength something like that would add?
Good luck
gww
That is another interesting ideal and if there is room seems pretty simple. I wonder how much strength something like that would add?
With a big enough wheel I'm sure you could really increase the strength a lot.
I have no doubt my problem is the mill flexing and not allowing me to get the blades tight enough. I can put a new sharp blade on and it cuts great for 25-30 passes and then the boards start becoming "waivyier" and "waivyier" until they are unusable. I think this is because I can't tighten my blade tight enough. If i try both wheels flex and change the tracking of the blade
I would love to add the support you have on the front to mine.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't have a lathe. Would any local machine shop be able to do this accurately? I haven't been able to find them for sale on any site. But I do love the idea.
Thanks!
[/quote]
Guys I don't think you are listening. He says it cuts great 25-30 passes, with a new sharp blade and then gets wavy.
Could be all kinds of things. From your description my guess is your blade is getting dull. Are your logs dirty? Take it off when it starts cutting bad and with sunlight coming over your shoulder look at the tooth point and see if you get reflected light and compare it to a sharp blade.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36370/Sharp_vs_new_2.JPG)
This might not look like much but it makes a difference.
Could be sawdust packing on your blade. Never run a tire mill so can't really comment much. Personally I would check to see if the teeth on the tire side are different(less sharp,outside corner point rounded) than the other.
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 27, 2016, 04:46:34 AM
You maybe could put two adjustable caster type wheels on each side to help with the load.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/casters~1.jpg)
I'm confused. What will the caster wheel in your picture be doing? run against the tires that are currently on the mill? Again, I'm a little slow.
Thanks!
dm
I don't discount what you are saying about blade sharpness.
I do think however that the flexing is still a factor just as it is on my mill.
I run to the max my mill will take before it starts to run off the front of the tire due to frame flex. I tell this by putting more tension on while the blade is moving and can see it walking forward on the tire.
I have had the center of wide cuts arching up and me needing to run the tension as tight as I can which helps.
I read on cooks website that your blade breakage is less if you run the blade with as low of a tension as it will still cut with. They also mention that many run with higher tension to be abe to cut longer with a blade as it dulls.
I do not use a sharpening service for my blades. I counter this by taking a angle grinder and/or drimel and refresh the blade edge quite often. Sometimes as often as every third or fourth cut as the blade ages. At some point my sharpining works worse and worse. I also reset the set every so often.
I have only used two differrent type hardness blades and run untill blade failure/breaking. The stiffer blades cut a bit longer between sharpening but break sooner. I have not broke one of the softer blades yet but they take more sharpening more often.
I get by with all this cause it is just a hoby mill and I don't have to meet any type of production so time is not a big factor. I see wallee on a differrent thread getting 200 bf per hour on a manual mill wood mizer L15. I could never get that type of production with my mill. It I could tension it tighter I might run the blade longer between sharpening and get closer to that type of production at the expence of blade life.
I believe knowing that your mill flexes might make it worth it (if you have the energy) to make it a bit stronger. I don't know how much it will get you but wish mine was a bit stronger so I could find out. I have been too lazy and happy enough so far using it like it is but believe it could be better.
I believe georgia is in the same boat and may have even more flex then my mill has.(from his description).
The mill I posted a link to earlier in this thread apparently thought it was a worthwhile modification cause it is the modification he made and used to point to straiter boards. I believe several were built from his ideals.
I haven't did it and may never, but my mind and experiance so far makes me think it would help some.
cheers
gww
G
QuoteI'm confused. What will the caster wheel in your picture be doing? run against the tires that are currently on the mill? Again, I'm a little slow.
I am not trying to speak for k but yes the caster would run against the wheel and add support. I believe the way it adds support is that now all your stress is at the ends of your bar that the wheels are attached to. The added casters would move some of the stress on that bar closer together which would in effect make that bar stress wise much shorter. It is easier to bend a long bar of the same thickness the it would be if it was shorter. I don't know how much support it would add but is interesting. k mentions with a bigger wheel then his picture you would get more strength. When looking over this option make sure you don't get into your cut area. My mill will only cut a 7 inch deep board and I wouldn't want it to get smaller.
Good luck
gww
How much do you think that will slow the Rpms down? Do you think that the rubber in the tire wouldn't just give and still allow the wheel to turn in?
G
I don't know. It should help some but I don't know how much. How many horse power is a golf cart motor. I only have a 9 horse motor on my mill and I wouldn't think casters would hurt it that bad. I would say someone has tried it cause k got the picture some where. You got to decide for yourself.
Good luck
gww
Hi,this guy may have an better idea....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE_QINc6FBo&list=PLJX6MQ22Wrc0hu2bXvEgVIp0ME6P0u0EA
Gww
My motor is a 13 hp motor. I've never had any issues a with its power but just wonder about putting a wheel against it that tight. I'm not sure how much that would try to stall the tire from turning.
York
I've watched his video and like his set up. However, to do that to mine I would have to change almost everything. And it would cost more $ than I'm willing to spend
Thanks
G
I think if you scrounge a bit the casters against the wheel would be easiest. I think you already have the golf cart hubs and it might be worth holding them up against your mill and try to visualize what you might end up with. I always seem to take the easy way out and might try the castors if I didn't have to buy anything but welding rods to do it cause it doesn't look that hard to do although I always over estimate my ability. If you have the stuff to do the bar in front of the wheels using the golf cart hubs, I think that might be stronger but know from experiance that allthread and lots of nuts is not a cheep way to go even if you have everything else. If the tire is sandwiched fairly close to both hubs and the all thread didn't have to be too long, I believe it might be stronger. The casters might be strong enough though.
Is your dad still helping? What does he think?
I went out to start mine today and the pull rope broke. I cut it in half and am still using it and I can get it to fire once and a while with starting fluid but not consistantly and I only have half pull on the rope. Kinda dissapointing. The motor uses oil like crazy so I knew trouble was coming but it is still dissapointing. I need an electric start 13 horse before I have a heart attack.
You might wait till kbitz post again because he is a much better metal worker then I am and yet realizes we build to save money. I trust his thoughts more then I trust mine.
Good luck
gww
gww g088,
So both of your mills have the band wheel cantilevered? And the tire squishes out when you crank it tight or the frame flex's or both. I don't see a good easy solution. :(
I think I'd just start over with the wheels and frame between them. If the power is going through that golf cart rear end it wont last long anyway. Heavy frame with a good sized jack shaft and some heavy pillow block bearings or a 3/4 ton pickup axle with a floating axle would have a real nice heavy bearing setup. Steve
If you're getting 25 to 30 good cuts before you have problems, I believe you should be looking at the blades. Period.
If you've got a design flaw, you need to go back to the drawing board and redesign.
That caster would just be a crutch for a design that wasn't working in the first place.
Sorry to be so harsh, but I couldn't figure out a better way to put it.
In order to fix the flex problem you need to know were it is flexing, could put a string or wire stretched across the frame then tension the blade and compare the gap on the string.
My guess is it will be on the idle side it seems to hang out there a long ways. Could you shorten that side and use shorter blades?
dmccoy
QuoteSo both of your mills have the band wheel cantilevered? And the tire squishes out when you crank it tight or the frame flex's or both. I don't see a good easy solution
My frame is too light and flexes, I have no problim with tire squish. I would bet that tire squish is not goergia's issue either.
To the rest. A differrent design might be better or you could look at it that the design is just not finished. If you had a bar on both sides of the tire and you had made it that way on purpose and you got no flex then it would be a good design. I can't tell you if the guys who have built there mill with that design have problims, but they say they don't. I can see no difference if that was added and it worked then those other mills that started that way.
I agree that the caster ideal might be a patch of sorts but if it helped good enough then in the end it helped good enough. I have zero experiance with golf carts or thier tranny and so have no veiw.
It is easy to say there is no fix with out a compleet redo but I am not convinced that is always the case. I would have maby did things differrent on my mill but then again I built it with what I had on hand and have worked through enough problims that I have cut a lot of board that built a shead, pavillion, raised bed gardens and out house, 5 bee hives and hundreds of frames and didn't have to compleetly redesign but understand it could still be made even better. I could have bought a manufactured one and I could have been a better builder and am a bit better now then I was.
If the tranny goes on the golf cart then changes may have to be made. If it cuts and a guy watches, He may have the stuff on hand for when those changes are needed and may be able to get good boards till then with some additional work with what he has.
If I ever do another I will probly do things a bit differrent but I am getting enough boards th keep me going right now.
I agree that it would be nice if blades lasted longer then they really do.
My veiw of doing it on a dime.
Cheers
gww
Ps using shorter blades might help some with a shorter idle arm.
It has been said before the using tires takes the set right out of the blades.
But you said that you have put the set back in so ????
I think if it was my mill what I would try doing is to take the blade off and hold a
grinder or sander to your tire and put a good crown on the tire while the engines running.
Then switch the wheels and tires around so you can do the same to the other tire.
This will also help your tracking . The blade will always track to the highest spot.
The crown will also keep the tire off the teeth and save your set.
K
I actually did grind on my tire a small amount as you suggest. I don't know if I got a good crown but don't believe I lose set very fast on my blades. When I look, it doesn't seem that the set is riding the tire. I do set the blades every so often cause I am milking them till destruction and figured what the heck. I would say if G's blades start diving and not just cutting wavy that it is probly some set loss.
I am jelous of those with grizzly pullies for band wheels but have learned that tires actually do very well. I would say that if he as well as me can see the blade change tracking based on tension that even though all these other things could play with cutting ability, we know our frames flex more then they should and if fixed would take that issue out of the game so that if we still have issues we know that getting enough tension is not one of them.
I believe I could cut longer before sharpening if I could get alittle more tension. I just sharpen more now to compensate for that.
If G's flexes more then mine he may need to adress it more then I do. I believe my mill will be better if I ever decide to tackle this.
Cheers
gww
There is a lot of band saw wheels for sale on E-bay...
K
They all seem to be 14 inch or less.
gww
Quote from: gww on January 27, 2016, 06:51:20 PM
K
They all seem to be 14 inch or less.
gww
But remember auctions are normaly only a week long.
Next week will be all new stuff listed.
I'm building another mill and I'm also watching for a 21" wheel.
I dont know what your lookin for but there is 30" wheels listed.
In search type "large band saw wheel".
If you look at compleated auctions you can see that 36" wheels has sold.
K
I think I will stick with what I have for awhile. I need a motor first. I had been putting about a half quart of oil per tank in mine and I could get it running but sure an thinking electric start would be nice. Finding exactly what I have would be nice as far as mounting plate. Will see what I get as I go. I have quite a few junk logs that are slowly degrading and need to do a little more but sooner or later the mill will mostly sit. I would like a better mill but can't really justify it cause I am not cutting for others and this one is just a retirement hoby that is keeping up with my needs. If I remember, G was only wanting a couple hoby boards and doesn't want to spend alot of money. I can relate to that.
I still love your picture of when you were pulling yours around with the jeep. I just believe you have a much better background for building things and my skill is enough for my needs and the fact I am on a limited income and don't want another job for extra money.
Cheers
gww
This is obviously just a hobby for us as well. I enjoy getting different types of lumber from my own trees. I'm content with my mill. I'm not 100% satisfied. I would like to get the flex out of my frame so I could eliminate that from the equation. I just think this could be the reason my blades don't last...
Gww, I guess I never put this on other posts but I did switch from the golf cart motor that was originally on this mill. It would work just fine but like yours it had "issues". I decided I would rather buy a new one than spend the money fixing the golf cart motor.
I got the harbor freight 420cc predator side shaft. You can get it for less than $300 new. Use the coupons. I know this is quite an expense but it is a pretty important part. Just an idea to replace yours.
I have been looking on the net and saw a duromax 18 horse electric start for $319. I did see a review for the 16 horse that said it was only 11 horse. It is a 440 cc motor and that seems not like an 18 horse. I did go to hf site but will check again. They are all chineese and I have my doubts but I am unknowlagable and cheep to boot. I may still look for another junk tiller or something else with a junk motor. A junk tiller motor would fit my bolt pattern and have the same size pully so would be easy to install. I leave my mill out and am sure if I wanted to take it apart and sand the flywheel and put a new plug in it I could keep it going but a half of quart of oil actually adds quite a bit of running cost. I also very seldom ever leave the motor run past one cut at a time and wonder if staying with a smaller motor might not use a lot less gas. I have a 25 horse zero turn mower that just eats gas and I used to have a 17 horse that you could run all day on a gallon. I am looking but not sure what is best. I kinda like the ideal of new but know I could do it for nothing if I am willing to find used and not to picky. I sure am liking the ideal of electric start though.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will check it out.
gww
I always use stuff I have on hand as well. There used to be a really good surplus center that unfortunately closed. Perfectly good right angle drive gear boxes $20.00. :(
I replaced the motor on my mill this year. Started with an old Wisconsin AHH that I had sitting around. Back stated to get spasms at night from cranking that old thing.
I went to HF and got the same engine 420 cc electric start. Couldn't be happier, just turn the switch. Struggled a little with getting it to idle down for a short while but that problem has been fixed.
gww georgia failed to mention that the HF motor was electric start. (even though we still use the pull rope). It cranks so easy we havent taken time to buy and mount a battery. Found a place close by that we can get blades really cheap so other than maybe trying to put bar on front to hopefully help with tension and tracking, we will probably continue to use mill as is. Have too many irons in the fire!!! Thanks for all the ideas and help..
coach
I looked on the hf site and the motors are $359 right now and I don't believe any that they have listed are electric start. The preditor motor they sell seems to make most poeple happy from what I can tell. Hf is funny cause they will have the same motor listed 4 times on the same page and I can find no differrance in any of them. I am still thinking, and I will probly look around for some junk first and probly regret it.
You guys will probly not be in that bad of position just using what you have as your needs seem about like mine. Where do you get your blades? I do think the mill would be better if you found a way to put a bar on the front but I am not sure. If you do go that far, It would be nice if you would post the results cause I haven't been able to motivate myself to tackle it on mine and if you end up really satisfied I might have to get off my but. I can only cut 13 feet and have all the stuff that would allow me to extend my track and haven't got motivated to do that either. I am getting enough boards like it is an all the above would make it better but it is hard to do the work to get past that it has been just barily good enough.
Please let us know every so often how things are going and I hope they go well for you.
Cheers
gww
Gww
The harbor freight motor does have electric start. The model numbers are different because they sell some model numbers to places like California which have different environmental standards. But the motors are essentially the same... I know because I wondered the same thing and called and asked. I like the duromax you are talking about. More hp than mine and I found for $299 on one site with free shipping. I will try and post..
http://www.maxtool.com/duromax-xp18hp?google=1&CAWELAID=230005740000031501&CAGPSPN=pla&gclid=Cj0KEQiAlae1BRCU2qaz2__t9IIBEiQAKRGDVV8L74SssIwrwHrQ0b8As0f7H4wa4JgIOAf_Rn3knlgaAvdD8P8HAQ
G
Thanks for the post. I actually already have that link saved to my favorites just in case. I do wonder if the extra horse power is worth all the extra gas it will use. My little 9 horse briggs just amazed me at how much it used. I also wonder how my pully system is going to handle the extra horse power. I have to believe it will make things better but am not sure. My mill is pretty light duty as I made it mostly out of one of them weight lifting michines. It was one of the best repurpose Ideals I ever had cause I am not going to lift weights ever :).
Cheers
gww
Georgia088
Modify your post and use the link format for such long url's, as it keeps our posts all on one monitor screen. tks
Or just post the words needed for reader to google what you are pointing at.
G
Just so you know, I ordered the duromax 18 horse w/electric start for $319.
Good luck with yours
gww
This is the simplest way I could figure out to set up the bearings on my mill. I just took a 3500 lb trailer axle and cut it off about one foot from each end. And ran that inside of a larger diameter pipe with 6 set screws on each that allows me to move each one; in out, up down, toe in and out, and toe up and down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/DSCF5655.JPG)
Here is a photo of the same part but from behind to show how it mounts and the set screws.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/DSCF5642.JPG)
And the belt just rides in a grove I hacked in to one of the wheels with an knife.
With a 6 inch pulley on the engine this gives me very close to the correct speed I need.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/DSCF5844.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/DSCF5847.JPG)
Joe
Do you have any problem with the belt tracking on the tire? How long of a belt do you have to have to do that?
Gww. I like that motor. I hope it solves your problems. If I decide to add bar across the front j will let you know.
I am Scavenging for parts to do it with now. And my mill is cutting ok.. So we will see.
Quote from: Georgia088 on January 28, 2016, 08:09:57 PM
Joe
Do you have any problem with the belt tracking on the tire? How long of a belt do you have to have to do that?
No, It rides on there just fine when I first built it I had about an 8 foot belt and I used a the pto of a tractor to run it and then it would come off some times so I use a knife to carve out one of the treads wider to make a bit of a groove for it to ride in and that kept it from jumping out. Now that I have an engine on the mill I am pretty sure the belt would ride on the tire with no groove without running off.
I think the belt that is on there now is about 56 inches but I'm not sure.
Joe
I had seen a you tube vidio of one done your way and one done where the blade actually ran on the drive belt over the tire. I was really thinking of doing it this way when I built mine but wanted to use stuff I had on hand which added up to a 3.5 inch pully on the motor. I will be honest and say that if my homemade wheel pully keeps slipping and doesn't handle the new motor I may still switch to what you have. A very easy switch, just move the motor out and buy the correct size belt. Won't fix my mill flexing when tensioning but would fix belt slipping.
Joe, is that a flat belt or a vbelt?
Thanks for the pictures.
gww
GWW
Surplus center does carry a 18.75 band wheel for under 50.00 and I have not heard of any problems with using them. They are what I am putting on my mill. Good luck with your build and post pics please. In a few weeks I will post a lot of pics of my build waiting for friends shop to get empty,to cold to work outside.
Larryd...
This is my build with pics.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,82695.0.html
I think you will like pullies, not as much bounce I would think.
G
Not trying to steal your thread with my stuff, I have enjoyed our interaction and understand if your mill is working well enough and you don't get to the reinforcements. If you do though, would love to hear about it.
Cheers
gww
Quote from: gww on January 28, 2016, 08:38:52 PM
Joe
I had seen a you tube vidio of one done your way and one done where the blade actually ran on the drive belt over the tire. I was really thinking of doing it this way when I built mine but wanted to use stuff I had on hand which added up to a 3.5 inch pully on the motor. I will be honest and say that if my homemade wheel pully keeps slipping and doesn't handle the new motor I may still switch to what you have. A very easy switch, just move the motor out and buy the correct size belt. Won't fix my mill flexing when tensioning but would fix belt slipping.
Joe, is that a flat belt or a vbelt?
Thanks for the pictures.
gww
It is a regular v belt. When I originally built it I was worried it would slip on the tire but I did the math and in the 6 inch v groove pulley there is about 6 1/2 square inches of contact area if it is just about bottoming out. 4 inches if it is riding like it should. On the tire there is a little over 14 square inches of contact area.
Joe
Thank you
gww
Does anyone know where I might find a 1-1/4 pillow block bearing (inner diameter of bearing) in stock? I know you can order them. But I am free this weekend and would like to go and pick one up so I could piddle making this bar across the front of the saw mill to help stabilize it. Any ideas? I've tried tractor supply. Theirs are too big. northern tool
Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company are 1" is the largest they have. None at harbor freight.
Thanks.
Have you tried any of the tractor dealer/service centers? (where they sell tractors). I doubt it but, maby at an auto parts store.
I can't think of anywhere else.
Good luck
gww
I found one from a buddies "junk pile". I'll try and post pictures of what we came up with. We used a pillow block bearing connected to a 4x4 stud trailer axle that is attached in front of the tire. On the other side I just used the same 4x4 axle that goes through what I call a "wheel bearing" not sure of correct names of any of this stuff. This is just what I had or found.
Good news is I was able to put MUCH more tension on the blade AND it tracked on the tires. First for this. After seeing I could get it to track, i Only ran it twice with all this attached. The first time the axles weld broke lose from where I cut it off and cut too much out of it. I welded it back and tried to cut one more time before dark: it tracked fine until I tried to enter the log in the same cut area as before. This caused the blade to bend with the teeth upward and it came off the front. Darkeness got me after that. I think we may be on to something, but going to take some fine tuning. Let me know what you think is going to screw up next lol. Thanks!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~16.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~15.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~14.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~13.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~12.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~11.jpg)
I wish it hadn't have got dark on you. If you mess with it tomorrow, I hope it goes well and you give us some type of report. It sounds some better already. If it was close it might not take much. I would only want the blade tight enough to cut strait and no tighter. I did notice on the one picture that I could barily see the tire, it seemed your teeth tips were touching the tire. What pressure are you running in the tire. I run 37 lbs but would not be afraid to go more. I also (if the teeth are buried) might take some rubber off if my blade started diveing. It might be an optical elussion and if it works well, I touch nothing.
Hope to hear more. Too early to tell about your second cut. Could have been a fluke.
Good luck
gww
Well didn't have as much time to fool with the saw, but I did piddle with it a little. I tightened same blade that ran off yesterday (which now has a small kink in it) on the mill. It will definitely tighten more and track now that I have the front bar support. I Tried to cut in a completely different spot on the log than yesterday when it ran off. As soon as I entered the log, the blade started pointing teeth up and then ran off the mill to the front.
I decided it had to either be the blade or the guides. I checked my guides. They were off a pretty good bit. I guess somehow in all the changing to put the front bar on. My adjustments got off... I got the guides adjusted back right again.
I kept the same blade on and cut a whole log with no issues at all. Boards seemed really straight. Blade tracked great. Didn't see any signs of the blade dulling. I didn't cut any more than one log because I don't have any near the mill, but I am very happy for the time being. I hope this was the adjustment I needed to make it work like I want.
It will probably be a couple of weeks before I get to cut again, but for the time being I am pleased. Thanks everyone. I will let you know how it does the next time I cut.
I am impressed.
G
I am really happy for you. You just did the experment that convinces me that when I put the new motor on mine I need to also adress mine in some way like you did. I always knew I was on the edge but you have convinced me that it is worth while to do. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to tell us how it went. No matter what, you can tell it is some better and so it wasn't a wasted effort.
Thanks
gww
Thanks Guys. I really do appreciate all the help. I'm sure I will be back on here asking for advice before long.
Gww
Let us know how the new motor works out for you. If you decide to add the support bar across the front also let us know how it does.
I wish I had found that 18hp for that price when I was building.
Good Luck!
Just thought I would post an update. I have cut a few more logs since I put the support on the front of my mill that keeps it from flexing. So far, good results (knock on wood). I am using the same blade. It has lasted through several logs. I know that doesn't sound like much to most of you, but before I was able to tighten the blade up good. I would only get 6-8 cuts before it would start getting wavy. Now I have probably gotten 10 times that many and the blade still seems fine. I hope it continues going well, but I just wanted to post an update. Maybe it will help someone else out as much as yall have me.
Thanks.
Cool
gww
G...glad to hear you made some improvements and had a good day sawin' up that log..
Joe...never saw, or even thought of running a drive belt right to the tire, the same one the blade runs on...and it works!!! Hats off, nice job!!
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 26, 2016, 03:20:46 PM
The way I would make them is to remove your hubs and mount the up in a lathe chuck.
That would let you center everything up.
We cant post ebay listing here but a few people
make up brackets like this and sell them on ebay...
example
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/weight_bracket.jpg)
Hey Kbeitz,
you posted this a long time ago, but any idea what I would search for to find this on ebay?
? Was this for tractor wheel weights?
hmmm. that would make sense. I was looking for it to attach to the front of my mill to put a bar across the tires to prevent it from flexing due to the tension of the blade. I ended up using an axle off of a trailer, but the bearing has gone bad. I was looking for them on ebay, but Im having a hard time finding on ebay. I could weld them, but I may have to find someone locally to turn them on a lathe.
Well, now that I have my power feed working like I would like from the other tread (thanks for all of y'alls help). And also the winch motor raises and lowers the head like I would like also.
However, I broke a bearing on the bar that goes across the front to keep my mill from flexing. I am currently using small HF cheap trailer tires, but I think I am about to bite the bullet and change to the surplus center 18.75 OD 1-7/16 Bore (1-BK190-J). I plan on still using the rear end off of my golf cart setup. I'm going to mount the 1-7/16 shaft to a four lug hub and attach it to the golf cart hub with the lug nuts. I will probably have to get it turned on a lathe to make it true. I will then put a pillow block bearing on front of the wheel.
on the non drive side I am going to use two pillow block bearings with the 1-7/16 bore. One bearing will be behind the surplus center wheel, and the other will be in front. I will then add a bar across the front like I currently have to help prevent anything from flexing.
I am going to get the pillow block bearings and wheels from surplus center, and I am going to have to buy the B56 or B57 belts (Ive read the debate and don't know which one I will use) to put on the pulleys.
What am I missing?
Aren't these the same wheels from the surplus center that many users have had success with?
Standard cold roll should be sufficient for the "axles" if I put a bar across the front for support don't you think? I will have to machine a key way in if I use standard cold roll?
Is the B56 or B57 belt something I can buy from an autoparts store locally? or are there different widths for blades?
Thanks!
Putting a bar across the front might make for some exciting tracking adjustments.
When you say "exciting" what do you mean?
Quote from: Georgia088 on February 15, 2018, 09:42:39 AM
When you say "exciting" what do you mean?
How will you tilt or track the shaft with a bearing holding both
ends of the shaft?
Hey kbeitz.
We're still trying to figure out exactly how we will tilt and toe the wheels to get the blade to track. We have looked at your drawing and pictures, but still don't understand exactly how it works. Do you have any other pictures that you could post? I have looked at all of the pictures in your gallery.
I have also seen this thread (New member, odd bandmill build. in Sawmills and Milling (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=99614.0)). I don't understand how he plans to tension or adjust his tracking either.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
The big box on the bottom is welded to the small square on top.
The square on top fits between the other two squares. It fits loose.
On the first picture on the right you can see two little squares welded
to the tubing. That lets it swivel when I tighten the adjust screw.
Works great.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Band_wheel_box~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518740486)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Tracking_bolt_2~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518740561)
So, is the big box in your picture that the two pieces of tubing sit on welded to the mill on the side? And then you have a threaded plate welded on it to push the tubing for your toe in?
To tension your blade, you tighten the nut, this pushes the horizontal bar that touches the two pieces of square tubing, how does this pull the wheel out to tighten the blade? I'm obviously not looking at this right.
Thanks
The bar across the front of the wheels has worked very well for us. We can put as much tension on the rubber tires as they will take and not "flex" towards the front. Cant think of any reason that it wouldn't work for steel wheels. It really doesnt affect the adjustment except to make the front rigid once adjustments have been made because of the way bar is made. Its not a solid bar. It is two pieces with a threaded rod in betweeen that can be adjusted just like a toe in adjustment. It will only do toe out as it only does outward pressure. In my thinking, (oh boy this should be good). it should work on any wheels or tires and not have to have a huge shaft. Thinking the pressure would be distributed between back of shaft and bar on front. Hope this made a little sense, and hope my attachment made it. My two cents worth. Now, a penny for your thoughts!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39807/sawmill~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518782590)
This is the box sitting on the machine looking at from the back.
The band wheel is on the other side. Does that help?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Toe_adjustment~2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1518783946)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/image~15.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1454204708)
This is the pic coach is referring to. Also, kbeitz I've looked at that pic but I still can't figure out exactly what's going on.
Here is another example of the bar on the front. I don't know how he does his adjustments either though.... Maybe it's like coach says you do the adjustments and then put your bar on the front to prevent flexing.???
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32890/20130705_145449.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1373108049)
Here is the tread... My simple homemade bandsaw mill in Sawmills and Milling (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=67653.0)
Ok. Thinking I'm going to rebuild my mill with surplus supply's. Bearings in old golf cart are just causing too many problems now. They worked well for a while though. My question:
Surplus surplus sales the 1-7/16 bore pulleys and pillow block bearings, but they don't sale the shaft that size. They sale it 1-1/2" with keyway. Can I have a machine shop turn down a 1-1/2" shaft to 1-7/16? Would this be a problem?
Thanks!
Quote from: Georgia088 on February 17, 2018, 08:15:48 AM
Very easy to do if the shaft isn't hardened. Take a file with you and see if you can file it. If you can then it can be machined. Hardened shafts can be ground to size needed but that would be expensive to have done.
You'll want to get the H Bushing style pulleys they are much stouter and hold up better(learned the hard way on that) and then just get 1 1/2" on everything. I built my mill with a lot of surplus center parts I don't have any cross support on my mill. I have used B56 and 57's right now I am on 56's don't really notice a difference between them. Look up changing the blade on a Linn Lumber mill and you'll see how they adjust the mill like the picture you posted.
Yes the Bushing style pulleys let you different size shafting.
Thanks ya'll.
For some reason I didn't get several replies before I posted this. I'm not sure why but I apologize if it reads out of place.
So, since I'm going to completely do away with golf cart rear end; my plan is to keep the centrifugal clutch from the golf cart and run a belt from it to a drive pulley that is on the same 1-7/16" shaft that my sawblade pulley is on. Any idea on what size the drive pulley will need to be? I'm using a 13 hp harbor freight predator engine. Turns 3400 rpms I think.
Thanks
Georgia.....
If you know the size of your what your blade rides on and your motor pully, you could play around with this to find out what you want. My guess is as low as 3500 fpm to 4500 fpm would be the goal. Here is the caculator.Bandspeed Calculator (http://forestryforum.com/members/donp/bandspeedcalc.htm)
Good luck
gww
So, if I'm understanding this right; my centrifugal clutchis 6" o.d. My motor is 13 hp with 3600 rpm. This would mean I would need a 24" diameter driven wheel to get my fpm below 4500?! Yikes! I can't do that!
Is reducing my drive pulley my best option? I would then have to create a manual clutch mechanism.
Thanks!
Quote from: Georgia088 on February 19, 2018, 07:22:19 AMIs reducing my drive pulley my best option?
You could put a jack shaft in...
Hmmm ok that's a good idea. Although I'm still a little confused about all this calculation. My motor is listed at 3600 max rpm. 2500 is when it is at its highest rated torque according to specs. My problem is I need to reduce the fpm so, by reducing rpms of motor and getting its max torque shouldn't I be using the calculator at 2500 rpm and plan on running it at that speed? This would allow me to use a smaller driven pulley and I would be getting the max torque.
Thanks!
Quote from: Georgia088 on February 19, 2018, 07:22:19 AMo, if I'm understanding this right; my centrifugal clutchis 6" o.d. My motor is 13 hp with 3600 rpm. This would mean I would need a 24" diameter driven wheel to get my fpm below 4500?! Yikes! I can't do that!
Is reducing my drive pulley my best option? I would then have to create a manual clutch mechanism.
It seems like you are missing a pully. You should have a drive from motor (6 inch) a pully behind the wheel on your shaft, and then the pullys or tires your blade rides on. Any one of them could be changed. I ran mine a long time with a jack shaft and it helped me at the time but I am glad that I am more direct drive now. I did reduce my motor pully size. I do not think you will be happy cutting the motor rpms down and you should use the 3600 rpm in the caculation. Jack shaft may be the cheapest route to go but if you are still running tires, a bigger tire and differrent blade size might be easiest. I do think you need to get your blade speed down. Even 5000 fpm might be ok and you could play a little with the engine rpm then but I would want it close to running full bore.
Good luck
gww
talking with customer support at briggs and stratton. They say after 2500 rpm I would not gain any torque only speed. They also said that engine would not run hot at slower rpms. And although I agree with GWW. I thought the faster the better but maybe Ive always been wrong. (which wouldn't be too suprising). Saying this to ask Georgia088's question again. Why not run the engine at lower (2500) rpm with max torque?
Quote from: coach08 on February 19, 2018, 11:37:34 AM
talking with customer support at briggs and stratton. They say after 2500 rpm I would not gain any torque only speed. They also said that engine would not run hot at slower rpms. And although I agree with GWW. I thought the faster the better but maybe Ive always been wrong. (which wouldn't be too suprising). Saying this to ask Georgia088's question again. Why not run the engine at lower (2500) rpm with max torque?
Max torque at the engine is 2500 rpm. Max power would be at full throttle. With correct pulley ratio, you run full throttle to get the full power of the engine. A jack shaft would allow you to use the clutch and adjust your band speed with the pulley ratio.
Quote from: coach08 on February 19, 2018, 11:37:34 AMThey also said that engine would not run hot at slower rpms.
They are so wrong. The newer engine are made to keep cool at top speeds. They are air cooled. Low speed higher temps. Running at full throttle increases the speed of the cooling fan, meaning that more cool air is being pushed over the engine, causing the operating temperature to drop. Google it...
Not arquing the point..... just saying what they told me. I think I remember reading your post that said you ran your engine at 3200rpm. Was that your wot or older engine. So your saying I should run at WOT or what rpm? Still trying to get fpm good. Guess going to have to change pulleys.
I would run at WOT. A load on you machine will drop your RPM some anyway.
The old cast iron engines could be run at low RPMs but the newer stuff needs run at top speed to keep the heat from hurting it.
So you guys are saying to base your pulley sizes on max rpm? I was figuring mine of half throttle which figured out to be a 10.25 inch pulley and a 4 inch drive pulley and 21 diameter which put mine at 3800 sfpm. Wide open would put it over 7000. So should I go bigger on the driven pulley?
Kwill
use the caculator to find out but I would say you need to go smaller on your engine pully.
Cheers
gww
Quote from: Kwill on February 19, 2018, 02:07:59 PMdriven pulley
On the driven pulley bigger is faster smaller is slower.
according to the bandspeed calculator a bigger driven pulley makes the surface feet per minute slower
Quote from: coach08 on February 19, 2018, 04:06:20 PMaccording to the bandspeed calculator a bigger driven pulley makes the surface feet per minute slower
Yes, the
driving wheel getting bigger makes it go faster, but the
driven wheel being bigger goes slower.
Ok, so next question. I said my centrifugal clutch that came off of the golf cart was a 6" and it is. However that's with a 1-1/4" belt. I put a 1/2" belt in it and engaged it. When it is engaged, it is running around a diameter of about 3-4" inside that clutch. This would be great if I could do this because I could use about a 12" pulley as the driven wheel and use my current clutch... will this work?
Looks like with the engine I'm using 13 HP predator the best options would be 3 inch engine pulley and 12 inch shaft pulley. @ 3400rpm it is 4600 sfpm
We are using the same engine and I am thinking the same thing. We are thinking of getting a 12.75 diameter pulley from surplus and trying the current centrifugal clutch I have from golf cart. Although, it's od is 6" with a 1/2" belt the belt engages and rides at about where it is 3-4" diameter. I'm not sure how this will work. I would love yalls feedback. I guess if it doesn't I will but he 3" centrifugal clutch from surplus center... I don't really want to though.
Sounds like your clutch is similar to a snow mobile clutch, I do not know, but I would almost bet you are going to run into problems running one small belt.
Kwill
Sounds good, maybe a little fast but close enough to play with rpm if needed. I like it.
Georgia...
I do not know how clutches are made. I am guessing it does not have a shaft to put a smaller pully on it. Is the front of the pully open or does it have a bar in front of it. I would weld a pully to the 6inch pully if there is a way to set the small one up against the big one. I don't even know if that is possible but is something I would be looking at cause that is how my mind works.
Cheers
gww
Driving driven ... Yep yep... Got it backwards... Dumb me...
Isn't you'r centrifugal clutch one that closes up on the belt as the engine speed increases? If it is you might be able to lock in in the smallest belt size so it wont close up to the larger size.
Quote from: Kbeitz on February 19, 2018, 06:16:58 PM
Isn't you'r centrifugal clutch one that closes up on the belt as the engine speed increases? If it is you might be able to lock in in the smallest belt size so it wont close up to the larger size.
The centrifugal clutch closes until the lowest point of the clutch contacts itself. Then the clutch is tapered from that point to the top. Depending on the width of the belt, it may ride anywhere from the lowest point (about 2" in diameter) to the outward most (top) point (about 6" in diameter). My golf cart belt (1-1/4") rides at the outer most part of clutch so 6" diameter drive. However, if you put a smaller width belt. It rides down in the taper or v at a lower diameter. This makes it a much smaller diameter
Is there any reason using a 1/2" belt running down in the clutch some won't work?
I bet the taper wont fit a V=belt.
we connected a 3/8 v belt to the clutch by way of make shifting another pulley for the belt to turn and it seemed to do ok. Not sure what it will do under a real load as we were just holding the shaft and applying presure by hand to the driven pulley. We are asking on golf cart forum, to see if anyone has had any experience with different size belts on these clutches. Will keep everyone informed on what their response is. Thanks for all the help and advise
responce from golf cart forum.. " I don't think it will hurt anything in the short term, but may wear grooves in the pullies over time. Don't know if that would ever cause you problems. I say "go for it". oh well, Im a gambler what the heck. Will probably give it a shot.
Quote from: coach08 on February 20, 2018, 05:35:47 PM
responce from golf cart forum.. " I don't think it will hurt anything in the short term, but may wear grooves in the pullies over time. Don't know if that would ever cause you problems. I say "go for it". oh well, Im a gambler what the heck. Will probably give it a shot.
To keep the belt from slipping the sides of the belts taper needs to match the taper of the pulley.
If it does then your good to go.
If you don't put a stop to keep it from closing up it will apply to much pressure on the belt and break it .
Quote from: Gearbox on February 21, 2018, 10:20:14 AM
If you don't put a stop to keep it from closing up it will apply to much pressure on the belt and break it .
It stops when the bottom most part of the clutch contacts itself. It then is tapered all the way to the outward most part of the clutch (so when the clutch is completely engaged the taper touches itself at the bottom and is about 1-1/2" wide at the top). Also, the golf cart belt has a taper very similar to the "v" taper on a v belt. I don't know if you consider the golf cart belt a "v" belt or not, but the shape of them is very similar.
Well, shipment came in yesterday with pulleys, axle, and bearings. Worked on changing the golf cart tire sawmill into a regular steel wheel (pulley) sawmill. Got a little bit done but a long ways to go. Got a question:
The collars on the pillow block bearings keep the shaft from moving in both forward and backward directions or just one direction? Anyone see problems with my setup?
Thanks!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/C451FC46-3323-4219-A904-B53B9E35617A.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1520132042) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/9A1496E1-08DA-4320-AC81-F76197FD1F7E.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1520132035) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/BEE26CC3-4195-48B8-B8C6-12922CD1A3FB.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1520132034) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/D0C0E28B-EF89-4182-A9F1-AB0F8BFFB466.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1520132038) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39796/2EFE9950-26CA-46FF-8D80-B49893205677.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1520132041)
Looks good. What kinda guides are you using?
Cooks. I got them a while back before I decided to change from golf cart tires.
Pillow block bearings come with two different kind of collars. Eccentric locking collar (cam lock) and just plane set screw collars. Both will lock the shaft. The cam lock collar needs to be turn in the same direction as the rotation of your shaft when locking. Bot all types have set screws.
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 04, 2018, 01:56:53 AM
Pillow block bearings come with two different kind of collars. Eccentric locking collar (cam lock) and just plane set screw collars. Both will lock the shaft. The cam lock collar needs to be turn in the same direction as the rotation of your shaft when locking. Bot types have set screws.
I have cam locking. As you can see, I have one pillow block on each side of band wheel. So, all I need is a collar on one bearing (as long as it's turning in the direction of motor) and it will keep the shaft from moving forward or back. Correct?
Also, thinking of putting a jack in to tension the blade instead of a bolt like I had originally planned. Any reason that won't work? You can actually see the jack in the floor in bottom pic.
Thanks!
You need some kind of adjustment for toe.
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 04, 2018, 01:56:53 AM
Pillow block bearings come with two different kind of collars. Eccentric locking collar (cam lock) and just plane set screw collars. Both will lock the shaft. The cam lock collar needs to be turn in the same direction as the rotation of your shaft when locking. Bot types have set screws.
Pillow block bearings also come in a concentric locking collar such as Sealmaster "Skwezloc" or Dodge "D-loc". I use these on a daily basis at my day job as a maintenance mechanic and find them far better than set screw locking devices as you don't get near the fretting on the shaft and you don't have the marring on the shaft you get from set screws making disassembly much easier if and when the time comes for R&R of components.
Brent
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 04, 2018, 08:04:07 AM
You need some kind of adjustment for toe.
My toe adjustment will be moving the front or back pillow block bearings either in or out. They pillow blocks have slots so they can slide. If this isn't enough adjustment then I will cut slotted holes in what they go through. I can't work on it today, but I got to the point of starting to tinker with the adjustments yesterday. My blade when barely tight seemed to almost track by hand after adjusting bearings, but was slightly running off the back of one wheel and the front of the other. I'm going to have to play with the adjustments a little more.
Well, I had about thirty min today to look at the mill. I adjusted the pillow block bearings and got it so that the 1-1/4 blades would track (turning it by hand) with the back of the blade pretty much flush with the back of the wheel.... is this where it should track? It looks like I have a lot of toe in on one wheel, but it seems to be tracking... if I put a straight edge across both wheels it will touch in 3 places and there is about a 1/4 inch gap on the outside of one wheel... not sure what it should look like, but...
Georgia
My opinion is you start with four places touching on your wheels and after adjusting you end up with about what you did. The test will be when you put full tension on and if it will still track.
You mill is looking solid and I can't wait for your first cut and would like it if you give a report. I think you are going to do well.
gww
Well, I had a chance to fool with it some today. I got it to track with quite a bit of tension (no idea how much; guess I need to make me a gauge). I welded some adjustments to push against the pillow block bearings to keep the tension from pulling the outer pillow blocks from moving inwards when the blade was tightened down.
I think my biggest problem was my surplus pulley (bandmill wheel) would move on the shaft. One of them kept moving. Even when the H bushing inside the pulley was tightened down. I couldn't keep it from moving. I ended up putting a small "tack" on the pulley to the shaft. This seemed to keep the pulley from moving and it tracked fine under tension. I don't think I should have had to do this, but it worked. I cut a straight cut with out the blade guides contacting the blade.
The next chance I get, I will adjust my blade guides with down pressure.
Any idea why my pulley wouldn't stay in place?
Sounds like the hub is bottoming out like the bore is to big.
It has about 1/8 to 3/16 of a gap between the flange of the h bushing and the pulley. So, I don't think it's bottomed out but I put so much torque on the small little bolts that I am afraid I'm going to break them. The heads of the bolts are starting to "round" as well. One pulley has held fine. The other didn't. But the tack seemed to hold it. Just hope I don't have to move or change it soon or often.
If you have room you could buy a split collar.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/split_collar_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1520831789)
well, I finally made a short video, but idk how to post it lol.
The video sucks btw, but it was the best I could do at the time.
I got to cut some yesterday, and it was an ok day. I didn't realize it but I was down to my last sharp blade of about 8 that I have. And Stupid me hit the very top edge of my log dog. I wanted to cut so bad I kept using it. It cut pretty well still. There was some knot wave in SYP that I noticed (not too bad) but I'm wondering if My feed speed was too fast. Or not adjusting my blade guide in closer to cant didn't hurt?
When I noticed wave I tightened the tension a little and moved guide closer to cant. This seemed to fix it. I cut probably a solid hour to hour and a half and it did pretty good. Then I started noticing the teeth marks in the wood getting more visable... and pow. The blade broke. I am assuming it was getting dull...
Couple of questions:
Are you supposed to let head up over cant to send the mill back home or is it ok to go straight back (after removing board) and letting the blade pull the saw dust off the cant?
I have two 1-1/2" blades. The rest are 1-1/4". Can I use them with 1-1/4 guides? I tried one but it ran further back on wheel and was running hard against guide. So I took it back off. Do they run in a different place on the band wheel?
How in the world can the adjustable blade guide keep the correct down pressure when you slide it in and out to get closer to the cant? I have always left mine in one place, but since I rebuilt, it is much easier to slide it. I would like to use it if it helps, but I just believe my down pressure has to be changing when I slide it.
I still have more questions than answers, but other than not having any sharp blades other than 1-1/2", I was overall fairly happy with it today.
Maybe this will link will work:
https://youtu.be/UanmXJ5yW-A (https://youtu.be/UanmXJ5yW-A)
Thanks.
Georgia
Here is my shot at answering a few questions. Can you move your guides back a tiny bit with out any other movement? Your 1.5 inch blade is still going to want to ride on top of the percieved hump on your pullys. So the blade being wider will ride the same on the pully (center of blade) but will be just a little wider as far as your guides are concerned. You could probly not hurt yourself by leaving just a bit more gap from the back of your 1.25 blades and still get enough support to switch between the two sizes with out changing, cause it would probly not take very much but I could be wrong and you would have to try it.
I don't think your feed speed was too fast but when I get wave, I usually slow down but have heard many advise on here that going too slow will make it follow the wood more and you need to go even faster. My view is that your blade was probly just getting dull. You could tell by how hot it is getting. One other thing. with small pullys for your blade to turn on, the heavier 1.5 inch blades will be flexing even more and it may make them break even faster.
On sliding your guides in and out (narrow or wider) If you have the bar it slides on level, it should change nothing as far as down presure goes. Mine is close but not perfect. What I find is that when cutting after a flip and after moving my guides, I may get one sacrafice board that is not perfect, but every board after that first one should come out uniform and so it is something that I can live with and if I am going to plane the board before using it, I can just compansate enough on the first cut to get close enough to perfect for me. My guide are off so that when I widen them, it actually puts a little extra down presure on the blade and I am sure there is a point that is too much but my mill works fine with just a small extra down presure when I have to do wide cuts. I usually have mine some where around (guess) 18 inches and never move it in and only move it out when I am making my first can't out of a log. So If I have a 26 inch log, I might have to move it out for the squaring of the log but can move it back after I have a cant.
If you are running your blades to failure, you would do good to get a drimmel and learn to sharpen the blade while it is on the saw like Kbeitz does. It takes 5 or ten minutes to do but is worth it in my opinion just because it is not so much work pushing the mill though the cut. I sometimes do it on every log after the first few logs. You don't want to grind but just barily touch them and it does not last as long as a new blade does at first but is very helpful and I believe as long as I don't grind too much, I get much more board foot per blade then I used to since I don't send my blades to a resharp service.
I hope some of the above is helpful in some way.
Good luck
gww