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General Forestry => General Board => Topic started by: Jim_Rogers on December 17, 2013, 02:49:19 PM

Title: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 17, 2013, 02:49:19 PM
Ok, so let me set the scene for you.

I have a 1968 case tractor which has a front end loader on it and a Kelley model 30 backhoe on it.

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/2aLogonside.JPG)

above is a shot from my gallery of pictures.

It has a gas engine, size 159 if that means anything to any of you.

It has a updraft carburetor which attaches to the engine and the intake manifold is connected to the exhaust manifold so that the exhaust manifold heats the intake when it's running. I think they did this to help it in cold weather.

But anyway, here is the situation. In cold weather it is very hard to start.

I have tried a engine oil heater by using one of those dip stick heaters and it didn't seem to work at all. The engine wouldn't start and it seem like all it was doing was burning the oil on the heater dip stick.

I tried the magnetic heater that attaches to the outside of the bottom of the oil pan. This didn't seem to work either.

In the winter when the temperature gets below 30 F the only way I can get it to start is to put a tarp over it and put a propane heater under the machine and let it run for a while, as I am charging the battery with a battery charger to get the battery up to full so it will turn over fast enough to start.

Recently I discussed this with a mechanic, whom I respect and believe him when he gives me advice.

I asked him is the heater heating the oil pan enough to make it turn over faster so it will start? Or is the heater heating the air under the tarp that is being drawn into the engine through the oil bath air filter and updraft carburetor so that the carburetor mixes the gas and air correctly and it will run.

He told me that most likely it is the warm air that is making the machine start.

So, to save on the propane expense, I thought I'd try an experiment to see if it was just warm air that would solve the problem.

I borrowed my wife's hot air hair drier and tried it one morning on the intake of the air cleaner. I put the hair drier on high and hot and took the cap off the air cleaner and put the hair drier right near the inlet and let it blow on the pipe a short while. And kept it there while I turned it over.
It started right up. I said wow, it is the hot air thing.
The next day I tried it again, nothing. wouldn't start.

Idea or method didn't work constantly.   

I gave up on the hair drier idea.

Now I'm back to the tarp and propane heater.

It was the coldest night last night so far this winter up here in the Northeast and the temp is now about 18 F. I thought it got up to 20 when the sun was out this morning but it is not there now.

I have been trying for some time to get the backhoe to start. I have run the heater under the tarp for more than 30 minutes and it still won't start. Normally it will.

So, my question to all of you who have experience in hard starting of older machines, is it the warmer air in the updraft carburetor or is the the heating of the oil in the oil pan or both?

I would like a solution that will work most every time, if it is at all possible.

Do I need to focus the heater on the intake manifold to heat it up enough to warm the air as it is drawn in?

Should I try and find my magnetic heater and attach it to the updraft carburetor or intake manifold?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Jim Rogers 
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: goose63 on December 17, 2013, 03:45:45 PM
I have a Jinma tractor made in China :-X it has a lower hose heater that help's in the shed but for 110 bucks I can get a block heater
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: T Welsh on December 17, 2013, 03:54:16 PM
Jim, Has it always been a cold blooded beast to start in the lower temperatures or has this become a problem in the last few years! I know in the last past years since the gas has had ethanol added I have cleaned out way to many carburetors. I know its old, and I love old! I would look into making sure the carb is up to snuff(rebuild kit) and then start from there,also being old she is down on compression which doesn't help either. Sometimes old age takes its toll on all of us! I like the way you are going about trouble shooting it ;) Tim
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: sprucebunny on December 17, 2013, 04:28:39 PM
Warming the battery will make more amps available. Take it indoors overnight if possible.

Block heaters have worked well for my older stuff but yesterday the electric fuel pump on my Skidozer ( Ford 300/6) wasn't picking up gas. Fixed that by moving the fuel line to a 5 gallon container.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 17, 2013, 05:00:49 PM
After I got done writing up the questions above, I went outside and it started right up. I think it just needed more heat.  :D

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Cold_day_with_backhoe.JPG)

Taking the battery out every night could be a solution, but it is not one that I would like to do every day. And I was wondering if the heat was warming the battery, it really isn't near the heater when I have it on.

In the above picture everything is in it's normal place while trying to start the engine except the tarp which I have pulled off to prevent it from melting on the hot exhaust. I have a thing I put over the exhaust stack to hold up the tarp so it won't melt for the few seconds it runs before I pull off the tarp.

I had the updraft carburetor rebuilt a few years ago. I say a few, but if I searched my records to find when it did it, I will probably be surprised, as it could be more than a few years ago.

I don't think that is something that I would like to do right away.

As I remember it, it has always been hard to start in the winter time. I know back in the 80's I was cutting firewood off a lot down the street that my mother owned one winter, and I had some trouble getting it started out there on site. I did start a fire under the engine once to get it going. And not wanting to do that again, I brought it back to this garage where my office is now, and put it in every night. And then trailered back to the job each morning. That got old real fast, but it started every time in an unheated garage.

I don't understand how an unheated garage can be warmer then outside. I put my mother's car in the garage the other day, covered with about an inch of snow. The next morning when I drove it out the snow had melted. I didn't understand how that could happen, being that it is an unheated garage.

I tried today to put the backhoe in her garage but when you have a 20' long garage and a 22' long backhoe it just don't fit enough to close the door. ::)

It is under the tarp now as it is snowing here again today. It's suppose to be 35F out here tomorrow so I shouldn't have any starting problems then.

Thanks for all your advice and comments.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: beenthere on December 17, 2013, 05:03:08 PM
Take the whole tractor indoors..  ;D  Inside with a good space heater or hanging propane heater will help.

But figuring that is not in the cards, a similar problem I've been helping with for a friend and his Ford  600.
Same scenario, but what finally got it started was to get some isopropyl in the fuel. Checked all things -
new battery, new plugs, points, coil, condenser, wires, distributor cap, and was told he had fresh fuel.
 NOT!!  He thought it was fresh, but he has a habit of starting his Ford and doing a small job, then turning it off. Start up for another small job and turning it off. Doesn't like to burn fuel so he shuts it down. Never lets it run to get warm and possible keep from water condensing in the carb and fuel tank.
But the isopropyl got him running and hopefully he will keep fresh gas in it.
I don't know if I can convince him to just leave it run when he goes for a tree, uses the chain saw to cut it down, pulls in the tree, pulls out the splitter, splits some wood, moves the splitter to another area, then moves the splitter to the shed, etc. Shutting off the tractor between each operation.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Holmes on December 17, 2013, 05:25:26 PM
 Jim any chance you have some water in a line or filter that is freezing and you are thawing it.  That could be happening at any low points in the fuel line or filter.   
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 17, 2013, 05:26:31 PM
What is isopropyl? and where can I get it?

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: beenthere on December 17, 2013, 05:42:25 PM
Quote
What is isopropyl? and where can I get it?

Various product names include it, and one is called Iso-Heat.  There is also Heat, but the Iso-Heat is the right one. There are other brands, some have methanol and some have isopropyl. I gather that for water the isopropyl is better. If water is frozen in the line or tank, maybe the methanol is better. Not sure.
 
To the other:
Quote
Taking the battery out every night could be a solution, but it is not one that I would like to do every day.

That removing the battery to a warm place, if it would work, then it is far less trouble than the several other things you have been doing... heater, tarp, battery charger hooked up, etc.  Just sayin... if it works.
Maybe a new battery is a good thing too.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 17, 2013, 05:47:56 PM
Hi Jim I had an old 530 backhoe like that , gas rig, what I found is condensation in the distributor cap. If you look there's a small hole on the side of the cap that's to let the heat out , but it doesn't work  :D :D. So what I did is pop the cap off and use an old hair dryer and dry the inside and you get the spark back. You do have to have a good battery. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 17, 2013, 05:52:43 PM
And Jim I put in new points and a condenser every other year they rust up :D :D
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 17, 2013, 06:01:23 PM
And Jim I put in new points and a condenser every other year they rust up :D :D
I converted the distributor to electronic ignition some years ago to get away from the points issue.

I'll look for some Iso-heat at my local autozone store.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 17, 2013, 06:09:30 PM
Jim any chance you have some water in a line or filter that is freezing and you are thawing it.  That could be happening at any low points in the fuel line or filter.

I'll try draining the carburetor bowl, and clean the sediment bowl as well.

I'll check the battery's age but I don't think it's that old. If I have more problems maybe I'll try taking it out and putting it near the wood stove for a couple of hours, after it has been inside all night.

Also, I can't find Iso-heat listed at autozone or napa. Where do they sell it?
Are you talking about what we would call dry gas?

Jim Rogers.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: kevin19343 on December 17, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
When you shut down a hot tractor in cold weather, or if the tractor had wetness on it from dew or rain etc., you can easily get condensation inside the fuel tank and other vital areas. This can also happen if you add comparatively warm fuel to a cold fuel tank. This moisture can easily turn to ice causing all kinds of problems when you go to start the machine.

Ice can form inside the fuel tank causing blocked fuel lines or screens, it can freeze inside the carburetor causing blocked jets,  inside the distributor assembly breaking the contact between the rotor and the pickups, you might even be getting moisture or ice inside the rubber spark plug boots.

--The first thing you need to do is add a bottle of Drygas  or some similar product to your gas tank. This will take care of the blocked fuel lines and screens.

--The second thing to do is check all your wires ( plug and coil wires especially ) for cracks and dryness. If they don't provide a good seal because they are dried out ,then moisture can easily get between the contacts.

---If the backhoe still won't start try spraying some starting fluid into the carburetor.

 The hairdryer method will work too if you get the carb good and hot, and then take the distributor cap off and dry it out real well. Some people will tell you to spray the electrical components with WD40. This is a temporary solution at best and should only be used to troubleshoot a problem area. WD40 will actually attract dirt over time and create a bigger problem than the one you started with.

Good luck! ;D


Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: beenthere on December 17, 2013, 06:51:59 PM
Quote
Also, I can't find Iso-heat listed at autozone or napa. Where do they sell it?
Are you talking about what we would call dry gas?

There are other brands that have isopropyl in them.
DryGas is another brand, and as I read it comes with either methanol or isopropyl.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: North River Energy on December 17, 2013, 06:54:36 PM
Considerations, in no particular order:

Oversize your battery cables.  I've used arc welding cable (1/0?) on at least one recalcitrant Vanagon diesel to great effect (cable run was at least 8 ft).

Verify your battery.  It may crank, but it may not have the zap for both crank and spark.
Note that cranking amps drop way off as the temp goes down.

Maybe check the voltage at the coil + while cranking?  Also try a direct feed from the battery to the coil +.  Could be marginal contacts in your go button/key switch?

Make sure your coil is in good order, and that it is the right coil for the tractor (internal v external ballast).  If you have a ballast resistor in line, try starting with that removed from the circuit.

Same with points and condensor.  Worth noting that the quality on these items 'new' has slipped drastically in recent years.  I tend to repurpose Bosch stuff from my pile of German and Swedish car parts.

On my old TD6, the points will sweat and gum up without fail in a matter of days if I do not cover the distributor.  And sometimes even then.

Also verify ignition timing.  Said TD6 will not even fire if the timing is off at all. To the extent that sometimes I have to twist the distributor while cranking to find the sweet spot. (Points are way easier to clean by pulling the whole thing).

I had both a radiator hose heater, and battery tender on my carbureted Toyota plow truck.  The trickle charger alone made a significant difference, as it kept the party going for the electrons.  Solar makes (or made) a compact unit that you can mount to the tractor.

Current plow truck has a 1500watt external tank heater.  Don't think that will work on the tractor without heater hoses, but if you can find a way to make it fit, They work well, and the motor starts happy.  If Case offers an actual block heater, then go that route.

Ensure that the choke is closing fully.  Especially if the engine is weak on compression.

Maybe check the intake manifold for cracks, and/or shrunken gaskets?

Good plugs? 

If it runs OK as soon as you get it going, without missing, skipping etc, I'd lean toward the electrical stuff.  Cold starting really highlights marginal operating parameters.  When you add the heat, you move everything closer to more ideal conditions, and that little bit can make all the difference.


Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: LAZERDAN on December 17, 2013, 09:14:51 PM
I hate to be stupid here , But do you use starting fluid ( just a spritz when cranking) works great on older engines.  You must have good cranking speed thou. (normal)  Been using it everyday for thirty years and has nt let me down yet                             Lazerdan             Try Youtube    Now I have  to go see,   Never mind don't waste your time on youtube, no old timers sharing thier secrets    I will If you need help
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: beenthere on December 17, 2013, 09:26:01 PM
LD
What do you start with it?
Old? New?

And do you "spritz" it in the air intake or have a device attached for injecting a "spritz" ??
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: LAZERDAN on December 17, 2013, 09:44:15 PM
BT  Just like thier are "50 ways to leave your Lover" There are many ways to start equipment with starting fluid.    Newer Tractors and crawlers Have a solinoid valve on the can and you push a button. ( I Do Not like this Method)   Almost always I crack the air cleaner a crack , crank and spritz. A spray is too much !     Right now a have a 8N ford as my Daily driver, By choice, not necessity.  To move the wood wagon and other equipment around.  It takes a while to get the hang of doing it daily.  Sometimes you only get 1 shot at the start If it's sub zero
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: North River Energy on December 17, 2013, 10:15:58 PM
^Have you converted the 8n to 12v?  If not, it's easy to do, and well worth it.

Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Wellmud on December 17, 2013, 10:28:19 PM
If you can see the frost plugs on your engine block you can usually get a block heater to fit one of them at the parts house, they have worked well for me. Also is it an option to turn your hoe boom to the side to shorten up and get in the garage?
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: LAZERDAN on December 18, 2013, 08:36:29 PM
Yes   The 8n and everything else goes to 12 volt, I am not a pureist ! I am a make it workist.  Work is my hobby.  Sittin at a desk is is punishment
 Lazerdan
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Magicman on December 18, 2013, 09:18:17 PM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Wellmud.   :)
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: fuzzybear on December 18, 2013, 09:51:03 PM
Jim
  When I have to get equipment running in the winter at -50, I do everything that you do. Tarp, heat, warm battery.
  The biggest helpers in starting in extreme cold are, synthetic oil and warm batteries.
   At temps below 0c/32f conventional oil begins to thicken. Try throwing a liter of oil in your fridge/freezer for an hour then pour it out. It will be like molassas. When oil gets cold it takes a whole lot more power to turn an engine over.   Add to that the fact that your starter is frozen and draws more amperage to work.
   Cold and frozen batteries will not provide the required amperage to turn the engine over fast enough.
   I have battery blankets and block heaters as well as oil pan heaters on all the vehicles and equipment.  The magnetic heaters are not hot enough to thin the oil down. The combo of block heater and a glued on style pan heater is the best. At -44 this morning, it only took 1 hour of being plugged in for the truck to start.
   You should be able to put a block heater in. when the motor is warm things work a whole lot better. If the internal cylinders are as close to or above freezing the motor should start fast.
   In cold humid weather, moisture gets everywhere. If you work in snow it doubles as it melts from the heat of the engine.
FB
     
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: beenthere on December 18, 2013, 11:20:48 PM
Jim
fuzzybear's post reminds me of another cold start trick, and that is to disengage the clutch which takes out some of the tranny from turning in the cold oil and possibly an oil pump if running off a live PTO.
 
Any better luck today?
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: ljohnsaw on December 19, 2013, 02:23:23 AM
My first car was a '67 Olds Delmont 88 with a 425 2 barrel carb that I got in '77 (but all rusted out).  Must of had an original battery because it wouldn't start in the cold.  Didn't have the money to buy a new one but had a "pipe" heat strip laying around.  I wrapped that around the battery and would leave it plugged in at night.  It always started with just a tap with that warm battery!
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Gary_C on December 19, 2013, 04:28:54 AM
Jim I doubt the isopropyl will do any good. Your gas already has ethanol in it and the ethanol does the same thing that isopropyl will do which is absorb any water in the system.

The first thing I would suggest is to see if you have the correct spark plug for that engine. If the engine was built for leaded gas, it may need a different heat range for ethanol gas. And every fall, I have to change plugs for winter gas in my gas engine loader tractor as something in the fall blend of gas fouls plugs quickly. You know they sell four different formulations of gas corresponding to the seasons.

Second thing to change is your oil. Go to a good synthetic oil for gas engines. Something in a 0W-30 perhaps. But especially a synthetic oil as they help a lot in cold starting.

And third, check your hydraulic oil. One reason for hard starting in cold weather in machines with a large hydraulic pump is the drag of the cold hydraulic oil in the pump. So warming the engine is not enough, you have to warm the hydraulic reservoir too. There are some newer multi viscosity hydraulic oils available now that may help your situation. Check with your oil supplier for a recommendation for your machine.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Al_Smith on December 19, 2013, 07:14:04 AM
You could have a lot of issues on that old tractor .Condensate in the distributor cap can be cleared with a shot of ether in the cap .It vaporizes fast and gets rid of the moisture .

The valves might need lapped in .If that thing is loosing compression it will be hard to start in warm weather .If you have a crankcase full of straight 40 WT oil the poor old starter can't spin it very well FWIW I have a 1951 Ferguson 20 that will start no problem ,no heat no ether at 10 below .Fires right up .12 volt on a 6 volt starter ,10 W 30 in the crankcase .It runs better than I at those temps .
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 04, 2014, 12:25:40 PM
maybe I'll try taking it out and putting it near the wood stove for a couple of hours
Jim Rogers.

Well we had a big snow storm in my area Thursday night and into Friday morning, including very cold temps.

Yesterday, it was only 0F when I got up and I was snowed in until I could get the backhoe running and plow out the yard, and driveways.

While waiting for the temp to make its run up to 20F, I took the battery out and brought it in near the wood stove, for at least an hour. And charged it while it was inside. Cleaned the posts and cables real good. Tag on age was destroyed but I think I have the slip on a shelf with parts somewhere.

After a while I put it back in and tried starting it. With the tarp over the engine, propane heater under it and the battery charger on it would barely turn over. As mentioned cold oil and cold hydraulics for sure.
I tried and tried but it would turn over fast enough to start. I put the battery charge on the highest setting but that only blew the breaker. I won't do that again.

I found an old can of starting ether and tried a very short squirt of that as well, didn't help.

So I needed to get it warm enough under the tarp to start. I got a cardboard box and put some paper in it and some small chunks of wood and put it under the engine and pointed the propane heater at it. In no time at all the box was burning and the wood was making some flames.  I had to put out one small grease fire on the tie rod end but nothing was damaged that I can see.

After a short while of the fire going under the machine it began to spudder while I was turning it over, a spark or two were firing. Soon the old girl started up. And I managed to get the driveways plowed out and some of the yard. It was very cold sitting out in that weather (no cab on machine) with the small wind blowing. I didn't want to be out there more than a half hour at a time.

I put some fresh gas in and put in a few ounces of stabilizer that I had on hand. I haven't bought any dry gas yet.

Thinking about some of the solutions listed above, I decided to see if I could swing the backhoe over to one side and get it short enough to fit into the small garage attached to my mother's house.
We had taken the hydraulic feed line off the backhoe a while ago. And I didn't want to try and re-attach it myself. So I used a come-a-long and pulled it over to one side. With a couple of chains and a chain binder, I managed to get it pretty well turned and pulled up tight to the up position so it is as short as it can be.

And guess what? it fit fine in the garage. Where it is right now.

When I got here this morning it was below zero, outside. I put a thermometer on the backhoe seat to see what it was in the garage. I think it read 10F inside the garage. At least 15 warmer then outside.

I am or have been waiting for the run up to 20F today to try and start it and finish plowing out the yard and sawmill. I need to move this snow before it "rains" on it Sunday, and then freezes solid Tuesday morning.

I am going to try it in a while and see if it starts. I may have to put the battery charger on it again. And most likely put the propane heater under the engine for a while. But being that it's in the garage it should take long to warm up in there. Hopefully.

Once started I'll leave the garage door open for a while to let any exhaust out.

They say don't run a BBQ grill indoors because of carbon monoxide gases. But what about a normal propane heater? Does that create carbon monoxide gas as well?

The garage is more then 2' lower then the tv room and that room is 15" lower then the house first floor. I know carbon monoxide gas is heavier then air so it shouldn't get into the house. Plus there are two closed doors between the garage and house first floor. But I am concerned. A friend said it would be ok to run it in the garage to warm it up for a while. I could look for alarm I have around here somewhere and bring it with me to put on while the heater is running.

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about running this heater in the garage.

Thanks.

Jim Rogers 
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: ljohnsaw on January 04, 2014, 12:57:30 PM
YES, the heater does produce CO gas, as well as your tractor!  Those bullet heaters contractors use to warm up a house so they can do drywall work are run with the doors/windows open a bit.  At the very least, leave the garage door open a few inches.  If it is a roll-up or flip-up, the heat will rise and the CO will go out the bottom.  Is the wind/breeze blowing toward or away from the garage door?  Don't rely on the increase in height to the house to keep you safe.  Put a CO detector in the first room and make sure the door is sealed well - I'd go as far as to tape around the frame to the door.

DON'T MESS AROUND WITH CO!  It has no odor and just makes you sleepy before it kills you!  If you feel like you are getting a headache, get outside and get some fresh air!  It would almost be pointless to put it in the garage - it will alarm, guaranteed.  They have a very low threshold.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Hilltop366 on January 04, 2014, 01:09:23 PM
Jim if you put a block heater in that old Case I'm guessing you will be able to start it up without all the trouble of the propane heater, Just plug it in and have a nice 30 minute visit with your mom then fire it up.

There are a few different kinds of heaters, the ones that go in the frost plug or a well that is designed for a heater seem to work the best, you can also get heaters that go in the lower rad hose (sold by size to fit the hose size), or the kind that go on a heater hose, the heater hose ones didn't work well on the 1979 Case 580 we use to have, the only reason we could come up with is the flow and return were only a few inches apart in height and would not circulate through the engine block, it would come on but only run a short time and shut off.

The 86 Case 580 I have now came with a block heater (not sure what kind) it was in the low 20s a few weeks ago and a guy up the road got his tractor and his truck stuck in a swamp he called my brother to pull him out, we gave the hoe a few cranks but it didn't fire so we plugged it in and went to town for 20 minutes came back and it started like a sumer day.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: beenthere on January 04, 2014, 01:15:52 PM
Quote
They say don't run a BBQ grill indoors because of carbon monoxide gases. But what about a normal propane heater? Does that create carbon monoxide gas as well?

Another answer "YES".

I'd forego the heater and just open the doors to the house, and put in a fan and rob heat from the house IF any is needed to get the TLB started.

And sounds like a new battery might be in order too. Having to pump up the one on there now that often indicates it is on its last leg.
Being as you depend on this tractor for emergency use when it snows, best figure a way to make it more dependable. You might run out of cardboard boxes to burn up in the future. ;D
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 04, 2014, 01:51:41 PM
I guess, I'll call my parts guy and see what they have for a heater, block or otherwise that will go into this old machine.

I found the alarm and I have batteries for it as well. will wonders ever cease.....

I'll try and start it before I put on the heater. I have two electric that I could use but I'm not sure if they will heat it up enough, fast enough, we shall see.....

Jim Rogers
PS. thanks for your advice.

Charger has been on for a while, I'm going to try and see what happens. I drove it in the garage but next time, I'm going to back it in.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 04, 2014, 01:56:31 PM
Detector batteries were the rechargeable kind and this detector doesn't like them, chirps all the time. So I'm off to town on errands, and will get some new detector batteries while there.

It almost started right up turned over real fast then lost it. I'll have to find the slip and see how old this backhoe battery really is and make a decision on whether or not to replace it.

I have an electric heater under it now and we'll see how much it raised the temp while I'm on my short few minutes run to town.

More later.
Thanks for all your advice and comments.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: SPIKER on January 04, 2014, 03:53:35 PM
Lots of good suggestions, them ole updraft carbs are a pain for sure.   With low cranking speed they don't atomize the fuel as there is not enough suction do to the slow cranking.

With a Heat Lamp directed AT the Carb will warm up the fuel in the bowl about as best as ya can.   The Cold sure is FUN lol...   

I use a Lower Radiator Hose heater on my  tractor and it helps a LOT.   I also put the heat lamp (also used the dual 500 watt work lamps when the heat lamp (dropped) and broke.   The Heat Lamp heats up the injection pump and fuel lines into the injectors so the fuel is warm.   

I've ALSO done the torpedo heater and cardboard as COLD is harsh and every thing helps.

I keep a Maintainer/Charger on it too as that keep the battery warm & charged (warmer anyhow.)   I also put a dual dose of that Battery Chemical stabilizer stuff in it and it WORKS  8)  That battery is 12 years old this year and is factory original & have left key on 3 times (killing battery) and had Hyd Hose drop down & short the Starter Sol terminal to the Hot post which cranked tractor starter till it fired and kept running till battery was 100% dead for a 4th time.   Each time with a proper reset of the battery it has lived..

NOTE: a proper reset for a battery, use a 200Amp Booster for ~15 min or so till the acid boils, then drop back to a 25~50 amp charge for 2 hrs and then set on a 2~10 amp charge cycle for 12+ hrs.   That could help an old tired battery it will need filled right level prior to charging.

Mark 
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 04, 2014, 04:41:30 PM
I got back from town with the new AA batteries and the thermometer in the garage on the seat said 22F. It was almost warmer outside. And that electric heater didn't do that much.

But it did do enough, it started right up.

I've been plowing a while and just stopped to put more wood in the stove here in the shop/office. And I don't think I'm going to put it back in the garage tonight. They say it's only going down to 21F tonight and that's where it is right now, here outside the shop/office.
I will put the tarp over it tomorrow if I need to, suppose to get up to 39F tomorrow, and 51F with rain overnight into Monday.

I most likely can get it running tomorrow without much trouble and finish cleaning up the yard, all driveways are done and more than half the yard.

I only hit the log pile once with the backhoe bucket turned.

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Backhoe_in_garage.JPG)

Above is the backhoe in the small garage.

I will think about cleaning out another bay on the side of this shop that is full of junk that I mostly don't need, and will most likely never use. And see about putting the backhoe in there for the wintertime.
I will have to move a lot of stuff to get enough room in there to put it in, but maybe I can sell off some of it and make enough money to buy a new battery :D ;D.

I did speak to the guy behind the desk at the salvage yard one day while I was there about what they were paying per pound for old dead batteries. My friend who has helped me from time to time with this machine told me about taking a stack of batteries there for his uncle. Because the uncle needed a new battery. Then made enough to pay his time and get the new battery. I think that will be the next thing to do, very soon.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 04, 2014, 04:44:09 PM
Mark:
I can't get into the battery to add anything or to watch it is see if the acid boils like we used to in the olden days......

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: red oaks lumber on January 04, 2014, 05:29:48 PM
batteries arent that expensive, replace it unless you love misery :)
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 04, 2014, 06:46:49 PM
I would go with a block heater. Don't know if you could throw an old blanket over the motor and carb to keep the heat in place. On my other tractor,diesel,I had no block heater. Just a 100 watt bulb and a blanket did a fine job. One of those 300-500 watts lights put out some heat too. Now I have a block heater and one hour makes it start like the 4th of July.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 04, 2014, 07:05:44 PM
I have one of those halogen lights that does through a lot of heat.
Maybe I'll try aiming that at the carburetor/manifold and see if that will make the gas mix correctly and start.

I will try and find the battery slip tomorrow morning.

I know batteries aren't that expensive, but the last one I bought for the sawmill cost me $163 and this battery is even bigger. If I can turn in a dozen batteries I have stacked up here that are junk and get 24 cents a pound maybe I can get enough for a new battery. I don't know what the average battery weights but the one I lifted out the other day was at least 40 lbs.

I just looked up the battery I bought for the sawmill and it weighed 36.5 lbs. At 24 cents a pound that's about $9. If I turn in 10 batteries or more I may just have enough to get a new one. I'll have to do a count tomorrow and see how many I have.
Years ago, you didn't get much or you had to pay to get rid of them. So I never did.
And now I have a bunch of them. I might as well get rid of them, now and use the money to buy a new one.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 04, 2014, 07:08:38 PM
Jim,I would keep the light on all night. Motor covered with a blanket.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Hilltop366 on January 04, 2014, 08:43:06 PM
Jim,I would keep the light on all night. Motor covered with a blanket.

Careful, those halogen lights put out enough heat to be dangerous!

I wonder if  would help to put a hair dryer on the air intake when turning it over?
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on January 04, 2014, 08:53:16 PM
I wonder if  would help to put a hair dryer on the air intake when turning it over?

When I don't have time to let the block heater work, I've put a hair drier or heat gun directly into the air intake on my equipment and it will usually fire right up.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: coxy on January 04, 2014, 09:12:35 PM
not to be a jack     but all the time you have had  it plugged in    running to town to get things     the propane     gas for the car or truck and most of all your time and aggravation  it would have been cheaper to buy the oil   battery or block heater or all three ;D jmop
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: gspren on January 05, 2014, 09:04:01 AM
  Driving and using newer equipment with electronic ignition and fuel injection that almost never needs a tune up we forget that tune ups need done much more often on old technology engines. I have tractors from the 44 Farmall H to 56 JD620 and they start right up unless there is something out of tune, usually ignition but sometimes fuel related.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: red oaks lumber on January 05, 2014, 11:35:12 AM
the batteries i bought for my 180 hp tractor were $79 ea. a battery that is weaker on cranking will give all sorts of starting fits. if its more than 5 yrs old replace it.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: LAZERDAN on January 05, 2014, 11:46:04 AM
OK : now you've got me thinking Are we all not capable of all summer long of putting up some sort of shelter? portable if we can't aford permenent structure or building restrictians.  Dang it I am going to get one of those large cart corral buildings and insulate it and heat it next year! I am sick of -10 already !  Now I have a goal.  That,s all I have to say about that.   (for now anyway)  Lazerr(burrr) dan   
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 05, 2014, 08:02:23 PM
I wonder if  would help to put a hair dryer on the air intake when turning it over?

When I don't have time to let the block heater work, I've put a hair drier or heat gun directly into the air intake on my equipment and it will usually fire right up.

I tried the hair drier trick and it didn't seem to work.

I tried the halogen light on the intake manifold trick and that didn't work today either.

I tested the battery with my battery tester and it tested good. But I may replace it anyway.

I checked the distributor cap and the rotor as I have converted this from a point set distributor to an electronic ignition a while ago and the cap was dry and the rotor was a bit dirty so I filed it and now it is very clean. Didn't help starting it today.

I will be changing the oil to something other than what's in there next time it's warm, most likely tomorrow.
I may buy some other oil than what I have on hand which is 10-30w.

Never got it running today. I had to leave as I was about to put the tarp over it and put the heater under it to go home and deal with some frozen pipes. By the time I got there the day had warmed up enough that they thawed out by themselves and I didn't have to crawl under the kitchen to warm them up.

I haven't taken the time to find the slip on the battery as I had the above problem to solve. But I will and try and get the same size, if I decide to replace it. It is not that old, as I remember it. But we'll see when I find the slip.

I am seriously thinking about cleaning out an open bay on the side of this shop that is full of junk and put the machine in there as soon as possible, plus getting a block heater of some kind or another.
Hopefully the dealer will have something that isn't too hard to install, and doesn't cost an arm or leg to buy.

Thanks again for all your advice and comments.
Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Mapleman on January 05, 2014, 08:48:49 PM
Its possible that your starter is on its way out and drawing a lot of current but not turning the engine over fast enough.  If the starter doesn't turn over fast with a new battery and you're sure of all your connections and wire sizes, the starter might be at fault.  I had this problem with one of my old farm tractors and the new starter made a huge difference.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 05, 2014, 09:09:03 PM
Jim.you said you never got it running today? I had one degree this morning but by noon was 32. Tommorrow should be warmer. If that halogen light did not help,they put some heat out,might be something else. Did you try to boost it with something else?
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Gary_C on January 05, 2014, 09:13:44 PM
I tried the halogen light on the intake manifold trick and that didn't work today either.

I will be changing the oil to something other than what's in there next time it's warm, most likely tomorrow.
I may buy some other oil than what I have on hand which is 10-30w.


A halogen bulb will get hot but it will only heat the air around it. What you need is an infared or heat lamp bulb to point directly at the engine.

Don't forget the hydraulic oil. The drag of the hydraulic pump can overcome good starters and a good battery.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: r.man on January 05, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
Used to be that the fall oil change would swap out the 30 oil for the 20 or 10 SAE to help with cold weather starting. Might help. I would also check how well the choke is working. With an updraft carb you should be able to partially or fully remove the rubber hose that connects the carb to other pipes that go to the air breather. With the choke on crank the engine a couple of revolutions without starting it. Then stop cranking and open the choke. You should be able to see gas running out of the carb area. I did like the suggestion of depressing the clutch while cranking. All of these little tests should help point to a solution. Good luck.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 05, 2014, 09:21:11 PM
I always depress the clutch on my tractor when I start it.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 06, 2014, 07:58:56 AM
Its possible that your starter is on its way out and drawing a lot of current but not turning the engine over fast enough.  If the starter doesn't turn over fast with a new battery and you're sure of all your connections and wire sizes, the starter might be at fault.  I had this problem with one of my old farm tractors and the new starter made a huge difference.

I have begun to think it maybe the starter. But I will see if and when I replace the battery. I have another battery that I just got for my plow truck and I may swap that one into the machine to see if it is the battery or not. As I mentioned I tested the current battery and it said it was good.

Quote
Jim.you said you never got it running today?

No, other events took my attention elsewhere.

Quote
Don't forget the hydraulic oil. The drag of the hydraulic pump can overcome good starters and a good battery.
As this machine was set up to be a tractor with the front bucket being an attachment the hydraulic pump comes off the front of the engine off the main pulley that runs the fan belt for the water pump and generator. It is a direct drive shaft thing. So there is not way for me to get at it easily to either disconnect or heat it up. Heating up the hydraulic doesn't seem to be an easy option.

I just called my local Case backhoe dealer and the parts guy says they don't have a block heater that will install into this engine that I have. So that's some bad news.
He suggested a magnetic heater attached to the bottom of the oil pan. I have tried that years before and it didn't seem to work. I even tried that attached to the intake manifold and it didn't seem to work there either.

r.man: I have noticed that I can't keep the choke open more then a few turns or it will easily flood the carburetor. And I know that only one or two short turns is usually enough to get to to go.

I have had this starter rebuilt before and I have a good starter shop near me.

I may change the oil today and put in some very light weight oil for the rest of the winter. Very warm here today, over 40F right now with rain.

Thanks for all your advice and comments.

Jim Rogers


Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: snowstorm on January 06, 2014, 08:28:39 AM
dose the motor have any core plugs  [ frost plugs] just buy an immersion style block heater . they work real well. some motors have a steel plate you can take off and the heater goes there. take starter to a starter shop and have them check it out. then buy a good battery. dekca or interstate
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on January 06, 2014, 08:39:47 AM
If the motor doesn't have any accessible freeze plugs then does it have a coolant drain on the side of the block? If so and it has space inside the motor you can get an NPT threaded heater to replace that drain.

If that doesn't work then you can install a lower radiator hose heater.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 06, 2014, 11:43:32 AM
If that doesn't work then you can install a lower radiator hose heater.

I asked the case backhoe parts guy about a lower hose heater and he said he never heard of one.
Where would I find one?
I guess next I'm going to need to know what size hose right?

Jim Rogers

Started right up this morning, over 40F no drag on the starter at all, no charger, no heat.
I'm off with a baker's dozen of scrap batteries to the salvage yard to turn them in for 24 cents a pound. I called two places they are both paying the same thing.
Will use the money to get the oil and filter to do an oil change while the weather is mild even though it's raining out right now. I found autozone has some 5-30w oil in a 5 quart jug that I was going to use. They said it was a synthetic blend. and they have a fram filter that crosses over from my napa number.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on January 06, 2014, 11:55:23 AM
If your parts guy hasn't heard of a lower radiator hose heater then you should find a new parts guy.

My local napa has them in stock and I've even seen them at Autozone when I go into the "big city". ha
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 06, 2014, 12:09:59 PM
I did find them online at autozone, but you need to know the hose size.
So I called the backhoe dealer guy back and asked him to look it up. I'm educating him about this.

This is the drain on the side of the engine:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Drain_plug.JPG)

This is the lower radiator hose location.

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Backhoe_lower_hose.JPG)

He told me that the hose size was 1 3/4" which is one of the sizes of the heaters available. However the heater looks longer then the straight section of the lower hose.
I don't know if it will fit or not.
I may have to put a loop of hose there in order to get some long enough to connect it all up. I will look at the package while I'm at the parts store getting some oil and filter.
They also listed a battery wrap heater but they say they are out of stock on those right now.

I'll let you know how I make out later on.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 06, 2014, 12:24:55 PM
I had one of those radiator hose heaters on my Duster,slant 6. But I had more room to put one on than you do Jim.
If you could get the motor warm by a circulating heater that would make a big difference. Or does on my diesel tractors. I had to re plumb a 8 cyl radiator down to a straight 6. I use some 2-2 inch copper pipe to get the job done. That size pipe was not cheap either.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Hilltop366 on January 06, 2014, 02:59:43 PM
Well Jim I think your Case parts guy is right about a Case block heater. I looked online (coleman equipment) and it does show one for the 188 diesel but not for the 159 gas, It is too bad because the heater for the diesel is listed for $34.02.

There really is not much room in there on the lower heater hose for a heater, is there any place for one that goes in a frost plug?
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 06, 2014, 03:12:24 PM
I use to use a smaller one than this on my tractor.
http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/magnetic_block_heaters_mh1160_3954_prd1.htm

I would put a couple blankets over the top and the sides to keep the heat in and a light bulb by the fuel fliter.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 06, 2014, 05:54:59 PM
Well, I loaded up the trunk with 13 old dead batteries and went to the salvage yard.
We put them on the scale and 421 lbs got me $101.04 to use for parts.

I went to autozone and got a 5 qt jug of 5-30w and an oil filter in a package deal for $23.95.

I got the oil changed in the car on the way back.

When I got here, it was lightly raining but I managed to get the oil in the backhoe changed.

The machine started right up and I only let it run a second or two to warm up the oil and let it run out easier.

I ran it only a second or two after the oil change to make sure the filter was seated and not leaking.

I ordered a hose heater as they didn't have one on hand for me to measure and inspect. It was at the warehouse and should be in by noon tomorrow.
I'm not sure if I can install it without running some other hoses out and around and back to allow enough room to hook it all up. I'll have to see what I can do to get it installed.

I was at the counter and heard another customer as them if they could sell him a battery pad heater. The clerk waiting on him told him that if the store didn't have it then they can't order one.

I walked outside and stopped this customer and told him that I was looking to buy one also. And that they also have one called a wrap which goes around a battery. I showed him the paper I printed up and took with me to show my clerk so he could order my hose heater for me. And I suggested he should do the same thing, as his clerk told him he couldn't order anything without a part number. He said that the webpage said to go to the store and order the part from there. Which is what I read as well, and what I did. He couldn't do it as he didn't have the part number with him. He said he's going home and order the part online and leave the store staff out of the loop. He was very frustrated with the store clerk who waited on him.

I was thinking of ordering the wrap battery warmer, but it is only 28" long and my battery is 13" long and 7" wide. This wrap warmer is way too small for my battery. So I think I'll order the pad as well. And put it under my battery.

Maybe with a combination of low weight engine oil, a radiator heater, and a battery heater, maybe it will start without much fan fare (old saying), once they are all installed.

We shall see. (another old saying)

Jim Rogers
PS thanks for all your advice and comments.

Oh yea, while cleaning out the stack of batteries from the corner of the garage/workshop I found my long lost FF hat:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/FF-hat_find.JPG)

I lost this hat some years ago, and ordered a new one from Jeff.
I'll put this one through the wash in my ball cap washing holder, and dry it out by the pellet stove and we'll see how it comes out.

Hopefully as good as nearly new......
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on January 06, 2014, 06:00:07 PM
Be careful with the battery blanket/pad heaters, I've seen a few batteries start melting when they got too hot. Luckily they were caught in time....
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 06, 2014, 06:02:54 PM
I want to see the hat when it's all clean.  ;D
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 06, 2014, 06:52:54 PM
I want to see the hat when it's all clean.  ;D
You will....

Be careful with the battery blanket/pad heaters, I've seen a few batteries start melting when they got too hot. Luckily they were caught in time....

How long do you have them on? so that they won't melt....
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: red oaks lumber on January 06, 2014, 07:49:45 PM
when your not using the tractor keep the battery in the house that way its already warm and fully charged.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: WDH on January 06, 2014, 08:20:33 PM
Keep the hat in the house, too. 
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: jamesamd on January 06, 2014, 09:18:48 PM
Jim wrap and insulate some of this http://www.heatline.com/paladin.htm around Your hoses and battery.Be sure of the bend raidius and that vibration dose not abrade the cover.Plug in forget!

Jim
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: ljohnsaw on January 06, 2014, 09:36:11 PM
Jim wrap and insulate some of this http://www.heatline.com/paladin.htm around Your hoses and battery.Be sure of the bend raidius and that vibration dose not abrade the cover.Plug in forget!

Jim

I used something like that back in 1978 when I lived in NY and could not afford a new battery - my Dad purchased it for some water pipes to thaw them out.  Got me through the winter and didn't need to get a new battery!
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 06, 2014, 09:40:41 PM
Something like heat tape.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: WmFritz on January 07, 2014, 01:26:24 AM
Jim, I think your taking an awful big risk by washing that hat and losing value. What if it fades color or shrinks? I thinks you should wear it in its original condition.  :)
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 07, 2014, 10:17:11 AM
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Jim_Rogers.JPG)

WmFritz: Just think of it like the view above.......
That was when it was new.....

Jim Rogers

PS. Thanks for the link and all your advice and comments.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Magicman on January 07, 2014, 04:25:16 PM
Now that is priceless.   :)
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: WDH on January 07, 2014, 09:28:06 PM
You could get the hat dry-cleaned.  Be sure to leave the cup in a safe place  :).
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 08, 2014, 09:35:14 AM
You could get the hat dry-cleaned.  Be sure to leave the cup in a safe place  :).

It's in the washer now:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/FF-hat-2.JPG)

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: beenthere on January 08, 2014, 11:41:27 AM
First time seeing a ball cap holder for the washing machine.

I usually just spray down with Simple Green, scrub with a brush and rinse off with water.

But am interested in how your FF hat turns out.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: ljohnsaw on January 08, 2014, 12:47:45 PM
First time seeing a ball cap holder for the washing machine.
<<snip>>

Yeah, I thought those were for the dish washer.  Lots of cleaning action but no tumbling.  Wouldn't work in my dish washer, though.  It heats the water to 187 and would probably melt the plastic and run the colors  :o
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: red oaks lumber on January 08, 2014, 05:34:54 PM
2 things that shouldn't get washed. 1) baseball style hat 2) work gloves. if either one is washed they just dont look or feel the same. imo
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: kensfarm on January 09, 2014, 12:03:53 AM
Your starting problems sound like my old jeep w/ an electronic ignition..  I've had the pickup module go bad on me..  sometimes it would start.. other times not.  Has it ever gone out on you after you've had it running..  then won't start again?  I started using the gel cell batteries in my tractors.. the main reason was acid was getting on the radiator.. eating away at it.. they seem to do better in cold weather.    My dad has a similiar old tractor setup.. could never get stuck having that backhoe to pull you out. 
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 09, 2014, 08:57:24 AM
Jim,how's the hat?
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 09, 2014, 10:04:28 AM
Jim,how's the hat?

hanging from the floor joists over the pellet stove drying out. I forgot to bring it to the shop/office this morning.
I'll have to get it at noontime when I go to the house for lunch

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/FF-hat-3.JPG)

In the meantime back to our story.

I went to autozone the other night on the way home and picked up the radiator hose heater. I haven't even opened the box or compared it to the hose location to see if I can install it, yet. I hope to do that in a little while, today. I'll take pictures when I do.

I did try and order a battery heater pad from them when I was there. But they said their warehouse was out of them. But that another store in their network had three on hand. So I drove over there last night on the way home and got one.
I'm about to install it today.
The only thing that the paperwork on the back of the package label says is to not plug it in or turn it on if the temperature is over freezing. It says to plug it in and leave it on all night long, when below 32F.
It's suppose to warm up here today to 30 today, and little or no wind.

I hoping that after I finish sharpening saw blades I can saw a log or two today.

I'm going to pull the backhoe battery install the pad while blades are running through the grinder and turn it on for a while and see what happens.
I'll let you know.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 09, 2014, 03:37:35 PM
Ok, so today, I took the battery out and put a new base in the battery area, which was a small thin piece of "plywood", I hate plywood but in this case I used it as I wanted something thin and strong.

Then I added the battery pad:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/20140109_110742.jpg)

I put the large backhoe battery back in, plugged in the pad, the battery charger, got the propane heater and put it under the tarp and turned them all on.

After about 15 minutes it was very warm under the tarp:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Thermometer_under_the_tarp.JPG)

You can't see it in this photo because of the cell phone flash but the thermometer reads 40F.

I tried to get it to start. Wouldn't start.

I went over and got another "newer" battery out of my plow truck and put that in the backhoe. Same thing wouldn't start. Turned over real slow, to slow to start.

So, I figured maybe the advice I got about the starter being worn out could be right.

I pulled the starter out:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Starter_out.JPG)

And I took it over to the rebuild shop. They asked me what was wrong with it, other than the heavily damaged gear on the end of the drive. I said I didn't know and wanted it tested, and repaired. I told them it wouldn't turn the machine over fast enough to start it. It probably needs rebuilding anyhow.
They said they'd go through it and take a look at the bearing, brushes and drive and hopefully will be able to replace the bad gear. He suggested I have a good look at the flywheel, which I did and it didn't seem to have any damage to it. At least the part that is showing.

They're suppose to call me tomorrow when it's done and hopefully it will work good. Tomorrow suppose to be warmer.

I have taken a look at some of the junk in my outside storage extra bay on the side of the garage/shop/office, and I put a bunch of stuff on Craig's list to see if I can sell some of it off and clean out that spot so I can put the backhoe in there.

Once I get it running again, I'm going to move a bunch of stuff around and get some space to put this machine in under the roof and create a new spot for it to be in the winter time.

That's today's update. Except for this note to thecFarm: I didn't spend any time going down to the pellet stove to get my hat. I'll get it when I go down there tonight to tend to the stove, after I get mother her supper.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 09, 2014, 04:11:32 PM
You may have to leave the heater on for a couple hours. I plug the tractors in for at least an hour. The wife's tractor has the fuel tank in front of the steering wheel. So if it's real cold I'll throw a couple blankets over the hood and that keeps the fuel warm too. But I'll plug it in over night when I do that. Most times when it's real cold I don't need the tractor anyways.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: snowstorm on January 09, 2014, 04:55:39 PM
the bad gear as you call it is the starter drive. the reason he told you to look at the flywheel is because the ring gear is attached to it. and if the drive gear is bad there is a chance the ring gear is also bad. they do wear out. to check it turn the motor over by hand while looking at the ring gear
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: red oaks lumber on January 09, 2014, 05:50:14 PM
i still say put in a new battery :)there isnt a need for a battery pad with  good working batteries. if that was nessasary wouldnt all newer vehicles come with warm pads? have you had a mechanic go thru your carb?
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 10, 2014, 03:48:25 PM
the bad gear as you call it is the starter drive. the reason he told you to look at the flywheel is because the ring gear is attached to it. and if the drive gear is bad there is a chance the ring gear is also bad. they do wear out. to check it turn the motor over by hand while looking at the ring gear

I know it's called a starter drive and I was very surprised when I saw the end of the gear. That's why when I saw it I figured I better have it rebuilt.
I did look at the flywheel, again what I could see. I can't turn it over by hand without using a crow bar on the flywheel. And that's something that I don't think I want to do right now.

I have tested the battery and it says it's fine. I posted that before. I just don't have the money right now to buy a $120 battery until I saw a few logs and make some more money.
I traded in some batteries and got the money for all these parts, that I bought.

I haven't had anyone look at the carburetar yet, either. When it's warm it runs fine.
I don't even know if the carburetor rebuilding shop, where I had it rebuilt years ago, is still open or not.

So today when I got in, I fired up my wood stove in my shop/office building and the external fan that blows the heat out from around the stove jacket into the room died. I had to let the fire die out, and get down there and take the blower off the backside and remove the electric motor so I could get the part number. I replaced this once before, many years ago.
Can't work here without heat. This came first.

While doing that, the starter re-builder shop guy called and said it was all done.
Off to two other towns on errands I picked up a new blower motor several towns west of me and one town east of me to get the starter back.

I had a long talk with the starter rebuilder guy and he said that they make a "high torque" set of field magnates for that starter. He said that there is also an after market high torque starter he could research, find and order for me if I wanted to go that route after we try the "high torque" field magnates.

He said he put new bearing or bushings in each end and the middle one. And that he put in a new drive gear.
He said that it (the overall starter) wasn't in bad shape. I don't remember if he put in any new bushes or not. But he told me yesterday it maybe between $100 and $150 to rebuilt it. But when I got there he told me it was only $50.

I had to call my customer and ask him to bring over a deposit on his order for me to have the money to pay for these unexpected repairs, the starter and the blower motor.

When I got back from these errands I put the blower motor in and got the fire going again. Warm in here now.

It's been snowing off and on here all day. It was suppose to warm up and rain but I haven't seen that yet. I just looked at the radar and it's all gone out to sea.

I haven't put the starter in yet. I may wait till the morning when it's suppose to be warmer.

Here is a shot of the rebuilt starter drive:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Starter_out-3-rebuilt.JPG)

Here is a close up shot of the old damaged gear:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Starter_out-2.JPG)

And for thecfarm here is a picture of my hat after it came out of the washing rack and was dry:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Hat-cleaned.JPG)

Got a little bleed through from the green bill into the cap but other than that it fit well and felt good to wear it again.

Jim Rogers

PS. I will keep you updated.
And again thanks for all your advice, suggestions and comments.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 10, 2014, 04:11:39 PM
Thanks for the update on the hat. ;D
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: WmFritz on January 10, 2014, 05:32:26 PM
Hopefully, now that the cap is rejuvenated, all's right in the world and your hiccups will be cured, James.   smiley_sun
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Holmes on January 11, 2014, 08:34:07 AM
  Your old starter looks like it was stuck out in the engaged position all the time. I believe that gear is supposed to retract then shoot out into the flywheel to engage it to start the motor. 
    Have you looked for a 2nd ground wire that goes from the motor to the frame? It should be checked I had starter problems  and it was the 2nd ground wire corrosion.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 11, 2014, 09:16:50 AM
  Your old starter looks like it was stuck out in the engaged position all the time. I believe that gear is supposed to retract then shoot out into the flywheel to engage it to start the motor. 
    Have you looked for a 2nd ground wire that goes from the motor to the frame? It should be checked I had starter problems  and it was the 2nd ground wire corrosion.

I did notice that in the pictures.
The rebuilder guy said it was designed that it didn't retract until the machine started. That's why it was out when I brought it in.

I will look and see if there is another ground wire. And check the main ground wire from the battery to the frame. I have replaced both the main ground wire to the frame and the hot wire from the battery to the starter at least once each. But not lately.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 14, 2014, 11:18:09 AM
Saturday it rained here all day and washed away the snow from Friday.

Sunday was a bright and sunny day, very warm over 40F.

I had two meetings, one) I looked at a pile of logs. The customer and I measured up the logs and he's got 26 of them of various lengths, types and diameters. He's hoping that I can mill them all into timbers for a timber frame shed he wants to build. He may even host a class here in my own hometown when his timbers are done.
We'll see how this all works out.

After my second meeting it was very mild and sunny out. I put the rebuilt starter in and the machine started right up. I moved two logs to the mill and got some firewood slaps for the shop stove.

Yesterday when I got in it was around 30 F and I plugged in the battery pad. After a while I tried and the machine started right up. I didn't need any heater under the tarp or battery charger on the spare battery.
I will still think about replacing the original battery soon.

Anyway off to the mill to start sawing two 16' long pine logs that my customer saw at the end of the log pile:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Tom_s_log.JPG) 

Above is one of these two logs. In our conversation the customer told me that when he comes over to pick it up he'd like me to cut each board in half as he only can transport and store 8' long boards. Wow, how nice to know up front.
I suggested that I cut them in half first so that it would be easier to saw and get the quarter sawn pieces out of these logs he wanted. He agreed.

So, now to get the mill running.

I haven't had it started in a while as it has been so cold, or snowing, or raining. But anyway it fired up and then died. I tried to fire it up again but the battery was a bit low and needed to little help.
I connected the battery charger to it, it isn't even a few months old, but anyhow I noticed that the charger clip turned a bit when I clipped it onto the negative battery pole:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Broke_ground.JPG)

Luckily I had a replacement one on hand an it didn't take too long to put it in. It's nice when you go to the spare parts box and what you need is there and ready for you.

I cut up one of the 8' logs from the other log not pictured. I got a lot of nice quarter sawn stock out of it and the customer saw them today and he liked what he saw.

I was about half way through sawing the second 8' log when the alternator on the sawmill stopped working.
It would not put out enough juice to make the hydraulics work.

Ok, so back to the parts box. And yes, I did have a spare alternator in it. But it was all dirty and looked as it I swapped it out and didn't get it rebuilt. What a bummer.

I called the rebuilder shop and it was 4:30 pm and asked them what time did they close. He said 5 pm. And that they opened at 8 am.

I knew I didn't have enough time to get the one in the machine out and get over there before 5 pm.
I just took it out and put the two of them into the car for this morning.

I just got back from there, and guess what? The spare worked fine on the test bench. So they are rebuilding the one I took out, and he said it should be done soon.

It's raining here again now. And I don't know if I'll go out and try and put the spare in or wait a while till it stops, which it probably won't stop raining until tonight after dark.

I hope everything will go back together smoothly.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on January 14, 2014, 11:37:58 AM
I hope everything goes back together smoothly too. If that was my yard it would be all ice. Not much is melting here. It is 42 but the yard ice is hanging on.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 14, 2014, 01:10:17 PM
Rebuilder called a short while ago, alternator is done.
Still raining hard here now. Looks like I won't be putting one of them in till tomorrow.....

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Al_Smith on January 21, 2014, 01:50:03 PM
A messed up gear on a starter drive will certainly give you problems .Usually it causes problems with the starter bushing which cocks the armature and cause further problems .

By the looks of the starter drive it would come as  no surprise if the flywheel ring gear didn't have some worn spots in it .
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on February 06, 2014, 09:54:30 AM
It's been a while since I posted in this thread. It was warm here for a while and I didn't have any trouble starting the machine, until last Friday. When I started the machine, warm day over 32F the starter didn't dis-engage the flywheel, so I shut it right off. Tried again, same thing. Third time it dis-engaged. I said to myself, "that's strange"....
Moved some stuff around and shut it off.

When I went to start it again same thing. Didn't dis-engage. Third time it wouldn't turn over.
I looked at my watch and it was 3:30pm on a Friday afternoon. I knew the rebuilder shop was open until 5 pma and they were closed on Saturday and I had customers coming on Saturday and Sunday to pick up lumber and I needed the forklift to be running.
So I pulled the starter and headed right out to the rebuilder's shop. I got there shortly after 4PM and I knew they closed at 5pm so I thought that maybe I had a chance, that they could look at it and tell me what's up.
When I got there they were already drinking beer.
But they said they'd take a look at it.
It seems that the end that pushes out to engage the flywheel had twisted and wouldn't retract. They figured out that the snap ring had shifted or something like that and got the end back into position and replaced the snap ring and put it all back together again, while I was standing there watching them work on it. I don't normally walk into the work area but I had to use the washroom as I rushed away from the sawmill without going to the house first.
After it was put back together again he said "here you go". And he didn't charge me anything. I was very happy about that.
Got back before dark and put it in and it has been working fine every since.

When I traveled VT on the 30th, I stopped by the backhoe dealer place in Concord NH to see if he had a lower radiator hose on hand. I wanted to know in case I screw up the installation of the radiator hose heater, that I got. And haven't installed yet.
I'm just about going to have to take the radiator out to get enough room to get in there and remove the lower hose, cut it just right, and put it all back together again.
Hopefully without it leaking. He didn't have one. I would have bought it if he did, as I could return it if I didn't need it. And he said he could get one very quickly should I need it. I'm waiting for a nice warm day when I don't have any need for lifting lumber to ship out and can take the machine apart, and get this installed.

In the meantime, I ordered and got delivered after several failed attempts an oil pan heater. It is a stick on type. The instructions said to take the paint off your oil pan and make sure your oil pan is free from all grease and oil.
I couldn't see the need and I didn't have the access to the bottom of the oil pan that I would like to have in order to remove the paint from the bottom. So I didn't.
I did clean it with some de-greaser and got it as clean as I could, should have taken more time and did a better job. But it was about dark and I needed to keep moving.
I stripped the stickum paper off the heater pad and pressed it onto about the only flat spot on the bottom of the oil pan I could find. And I pressed and pressed it on till it stuck on good and I think I did ok, not great but ok.

Here is a shot of the oil pan heater in place:

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Oil_pan_heater.JPG)

The bar below it is the tie rod for the front wheels steering.

And I have the wire hooked up with wire ties so that the tie rod won't rub it.

It snowed here yesterday, and I have to now plow out the sawmill driveway, my mother's house driveway, and the sawmill yard of 9 to 10" of snow.

When I got here this morning I pugged in the battery heater pad, the oil pan heater, and the battery charger to make sure my battery is up to full and ready.
I think I know why they suggested or instructed to remove the paint from the bottom of the oil pan. I can smell something like paint burning. Or it could be just some of the excess grease that I didn't get completely off the spot.
But the instructions didn't say for how long to leave this heater on. I re-read them again this morning.

I have had it on for about 2 hours and I'm going out now to see if the machine will start without putting the propane heater under the tarp which is over the machine.

It would be great if it would "just fire up" and I could get on with plowing out everything.

I'll let you know how I make out.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on February 06, 2014, 10:03:19 AM
I have a small magnetic heater for the wood splitter. Just a hand held one really. I have a old Subaru with 220,000 miles on it. The cold nights we was having,that car would hate to start. I use the hand held heater on the oil pan,but I used it all night, Started right up than. I also put an old blanket over the engine too. I kept some out on the drivers side so I could see it. Get that oil warm and that should make a BIG diffeance.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on February 06, 2014, 10:11:41 AM
Started right up.
Off to plow for a while.
Jim
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: thecfarm on February 06, 2014, 10:14:28 AM
That is good.
Title: Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
Post by: Jim_Rogers on February 06, 2014, 12:09:23 PM
That is good.

yes that is. Let's hope it will do the same tomorrow morning.
So far all is ok. about half done plowing. Just stopped to get mother her lunch.
Just finished her driveway, just before the meals on wheels girl got there.

Jim Rogers