Harman PB105 Pellet Boiler Question

[Hilltop366]

Looking at the PB105 Pellet Boiler from Harman, I know very little about pellet boilers.

Looking for ways to reduce heating & hot water cost in a 12 unit apartment building that is current heated with a oil fired boiler and baseboard radiators, oil cost just over $16000.00 last year. Everything that I have read or heard says I should be able to reduce cost by $5000 to $8000 per year with a pellet boiler if I do my own maintenance.

Other ways to save that we are considering are solar/ hot water and or major renovations to re-insulate walls.

Thoughts, ideas or others experience shared would be greatly appreciated.

[Holmes]

 Looks like 1 boiler will heat 2 units so you may need 6 boilers for 12 units.  This boiler at max firing is 105000 btu's. The best way to save on your heating bill is to keep the heat in the building. That would require insulating. Personally I am a fan of spray foam insulation. If done correctly spray foam will pay you back almost every day of the year.

[r.man]

I am curious, do the tenants pay for their own heat and hot water or is it rolled into the rent payment? Does each apartment have its own thermostat? As to the pellets, hard to beat oil for convenience in a commercial operation. I did see a profile about a fellow in the states that was delivering wood pellets like oil, with a load cell bin on his truck piped to plastic storage bins at the customers. He supplied the bin if you bought all your pellets from him.

[Hilltop366]

Looks like 1 boiler will heat 2 units so you may need 6 boilers for 12 units.  This boiler at max firing is 105000 btu's. The best way to save on your heating bill is to keep the heat in the building. That would require insulating. Personally I am a fan of spray foam insulation. If done correctly spray foam will pay you back almost every day of the year.

I should add that the units are all one bedroom, the building is aprox. 6400 sq/ft which is the upper limit for one boiler, I would not get rid of the oil boiler it would be kept inline for backup or when the pellet boiler would not keep up.

I agree with adding more insulation, it is a long narrow building (16' x 225' L shaped, former motel) 2/3 of the buildings walls could be insulated more in someway, it has 2x4 walls with thin paper backed fibreglass in it, improving it will be a large and expensive undertaking.

I am curious, do the tenants pay for their own heat and hot water or is it rolled into the rent payment? Does each apartment have its own thermostat? As to the pellets, hard to beat oil for convenience in a commercial operation. I did see a profile about a fellow in the states that was delivering wood pellets like oil, with a load cell bin on his truck piped to plastic storage bins at the customers. He supplied the bin if you bought all your pellets from him.

The heat & hot water is included in the rent, each apartment has two zones with thermostats. The tenants are mostly seniors, they don't abuse the "heat included" but most seem to like it warm.

I am going to look around for bulk delivery suppliers and requirements, also will be looking at the large hopper add-on to reduce reloading frequency.

[beenthere]

with a pellet boiler if I do my own maintenance.

Do you mean that you will be at the site every day and maintaining the individual units?
Or are you thinking these pellet boilers will run for some time on their own without constant attention?

I'm thinking they will be like the old coal stokers that needed constant attention and care.

But the biggest problem I see is available and consistent supply of quality pellets.
Simply amazing to me the number of public facilities (seems most often schools) that have been sold on converting to pellets at a pretty sizable expense, only to eventually switch back to more convenient fuels such as natural gas. 

Our over-abundance of natural gas as evident by world-wide shipping now of LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) will hold fuel prices in check (IMO) and force the biomass efforts to have to overcome a big hurdle to be economical.

[Hilltop366]

with a pellet boiler if I do my own maintenance.

Do you mean that you will be at the site every day and maintaining the individual units?
Or are you thinking these pellet boilers will run for some time on their own without constant attention?

I'm thinking they will be like the old coal stokers that needed constant attention and care.

But the biggest problem I see is available and consistent supply of quality pellets.
Simply amazing to me the number of public facilities (seems most often schools) that have been sold on converting to pellets at a pretty sizable expense, only to eventually switch back to more convenient fuels such as natural gas. 

Our over-abundance of natural gas as evident by world-wide shipping now of LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) will hold fuel prices in check (IMO) and force the biomass efforts to have to overcome a big hurdle to be economical.

I live less than 1 mile away and stop by there most days plus my parents live in the house on the same property.

According to the Harman web sight http://www.harmanstoves.com/Products/PB105-Pellet-Boiler.aspx and the dealer (which has experience with this boiler and 25 years with wood and pellet stoves, boilers and furnaces) the boiler requires "no less than weekly" cleaning of the boiler by pulling on 3 handles plus cleaning the burn-pot and emptying ash pan. If I would put one of these in it would need to have the optional 1500 lb. bulk hopper.

The option to burn LNG would be nice but will never happen here, not sure how it affects the oil price here the last year average price for heating oil was $1.13 per litre ($4.28 per US gal in Cdn $) other options are propane (cost more than oil) or electric resistance (also cost more), heat pumps that I looked at do not create a high enough water temperature to be useful for Dec, Jan or Feb for this heating system.


The biggest draw back I see is the handling of the pellets, according to conversion charts and formulas I had found it will require 29 tons of pellets to replace all the oil, over 1400 40lb bags.

[jdonovan]

Take a look at pellet prices, and the historical trend.

There was a day when tops/chip/waste-wood was left in the field. Then pellets became an income stream for the loggers, and pellets were available to the consumer cheaply.

Now with the increase in biomass plants, quite a bit of the pellet feedstock is being diverted, and pellets are not the super cheap fuel they used to be.

29 tons of pellets

Thats probably 3/4 -1 ton per week during the high heating season, and less in spring/fall.

How are you planning on getting that volume delivered, and moved into the area where the pellet hopper is located?

Have weatherproof storage for the pellets?  (if the bags get wet/leak, the pellets can swell up and become useless)

Are you going to have to climb a step ladder to pour the pellet into the hopper?

Pellets tend to be seasonal, and in my area (mid-atlantic USA) dealers often run out mid-season, and don't order any more, so you have to stockpile, or worry about getting caught short.

If I had to pay an employee to use a cart/wheelbarrow/dolly to move bags of pellets to the boiler room, pour the pellets in, and pay him an hourly wage to do it, I'm not sure I'd be ahead in costs.

$5000 saved / 30 pallets per year = $166 per pallet budget in labor. If you spend more than $166 in labor to get the pellets from the supplier and into the hopper, you're loosing money on the deal. Never mind the amortized cost of installing the pellet burner.

There are some aspects of liquid fuels (tank storage, and pumps) that are VERY nice vs hand-manipulating bags of anything.

[JSNH]

We have the Harmond pellet furnace at work but is is not the boiler version it is the hot air version. It works really well. Ours has an additional bin with a screw feed to the furnace hopper. The bin holds about 3/4 of a ton. It is a well designed burner and it is rare for it to need a cleaning. The ash drops into a hopper and it need to be removed about ever 3/4 of a ton burned.
With the boiler version in line with an oil burner it should be a sweet set up if you can set the temps to turn on the oil only when the pellet can not keep up. Hopefully someone can add something about the boiler version and how well it works in an application like yours.

[Hilltop366]

Thanks everyone for your replies I really appreciate the time people take to help out others, keep them coming.

jdonovan some good points to consider, the price seems to go up like everything else, from what I can see atlantic canada uses 10% of what it produces, I will ask around about seasonal availability.

The delivery and storage is something that needs to be planed out, I do have a backhoe but would need forks for it, or could pay the store across the street to unload them with there fork lift and then move the pallets with my tractor and rear forks also one place where I could buy them from has a boom with forks on there truck. I have indoor storage for 6 pallets and a pallet jack or two.

There would be no extra money payed out to load and clean the pellet boiler, I would be the one doing it and am on a salary, most days I would have more than enough time to do this.



JSHN it is good to hear from someone who has some experience with the brand glad to here it works well, I have not found anything bad about Harman, If I was to go ahead with it the hardest part might be to find a good time to take the oil boiler off line long enough to get every hooked up.

[thecfarm]

A few schools have went to pallets. It's always in the paper as a big saving. I have no idea about that. But they always talk about bulk delivery of the pallets, no bags. I think it's like grain. Goes into a so called silo and it's augered to the furnace.

[Holmes]

I do not see that pellet boiler doing the complete job. Just not enough btu's. You could use it to supplement the existing boiler.  Bring the return water into the pellet boiler then run the pre heated water into the oil boiler. How many btu's is the oil boiler or what size nozzle does it have? Your peak heating could easily be over 200,000 btu's per hour.  The pellet boiler certainly can help but don't take out the old boiler.

[Hilltop366]

I will have to check to see what size the nozzle is, just had it replaced a few weeks ago, I will check the rating chart for Btus.

Also wondering how the oil fired boilers are rated, do they rate them at a continuous run or is it for a duty cycle kind of thing?

Also I will time how much it runs to to get a better idea of what is needed now that it is cold.

[Holmes]

Most heating appliances are rated by btu per hour, oil , gas, wood,.. a 100,000 btu oil boiler at 80% efficiency will deliver about 80,000 btu into the building for heating and lose 20,000 btu up the chimney.  Now if your 100,000 btu pellet boiler gives you 90% efficiency you lose only 10,000 btu up the chimney

[sparky23]

I would agree with Holmes on this one. The best way to save your money is to keep the heat you have in the building. If your not a fan of renovating the inside portion of the exterior walls, and inconveniencing the tenants, try looking at installing 2" styrofoam on the exterior with a coat of stucco over top. This will not only add at least R10-12 and to EVERY part of the exterior wall, but it adds to the appearance and overall value to the building at the same time. 

[maple flats]

I'm not sure about that. I'll put in my 2 cents.
Recently I've been watching several pellet fed maple evaporators (boil maple syrup). Several are going that route and after cutting wood loses it's "fun" factor I'm going that way.
The producers who use it now put in grain type hoppers, like the large funnel bottom hoppers you see at many farms. The get bins that hold several tons, and then an auger feeds from the bottom, into a small hopper in front of the evaporator (and some designs go directly into the firebox). Now you need to understand, these are replacing either oil fired (at a fuel saving of about 50%) or wood fired. In my wood fired I add wood every 10 minutes, a full arm load (about 25-30 lbs or so) to maintain a real hard boil on my 3' x 8' pan set. The pellet fired evaporators do this completely automatically and continuously for the fastest boil possible. Guys who run these on a 3x8 are replacing oil burners that use 6 and 7 GPH nozzles for a 3x8 evaporator, and many are far larger, even up to 6x16 and 6'x20', replacing oil guns that burn 20+ GPH. The technology is there and the savings are real.
While the unit you have been looking at only goes to 105,000 BTU input, there are units that will fully replace the oil or will just keep the oil available as back up in an emergency.
Believe me, maple syrup is big business and so many producers would not be switching to pellets if the savings weren't there. They are in it to make a profit and many large producers with 10,000+ taps have maple as their only or primary income.
Look around further, you can find a bigger unit that will easily heat the entire complex (along with your parents house too if you want).
Pellets are a reliable fuel of the future and are certainly renewable. You would also qualify for an energy tax credit (Federal and most States) on your income taxes. There might even be grants available to defray the cost of converting.

[maple flats]

For a good pellet boiler that comes in much larger BTU ratings, look at the Froling P4, A Tarm import. It has units far exceeding the Harmon unit. Maybe one of them will fit your needs better.

[Brokermike]

my folks have a pb 105. Good boiler but does require weekly cleaning/scraping of the burn pot. They have a hopper but don't get bulk delivery. I don't think the 105 is big enough for peak useage. Pretty sure Harmon makes a bigger one.

The scandinavian units are 2x the cost of the Harmons.

If you get the 105 I'd get the biggest silo you can get for storage and get bulk delivery. For 6400 sq ft it's probably your best option. You might also considering storage. these things like to run wide open and then shut down. They build up soot quickly when they idle along.

Overall they've been very happy with their 105, but they're only heating 3,000 sq ft.

[Hilltop366]

Thank again for your replies.

I have got some more info on what my oil boiler is and is doing. According to the nozzle size chart the boiler is set up @ 276 000 btus.

At -4° C (24°F) which is around are average temperature for January and February the boiler is running 50% of the time with a 12°F temperature drop from feed to return lines.

More insulation would be the answer, perhaps after adding insulation the Harman 105 would work, as of now I figure it would never shut off and the oil burner would still be running often.

I figure some type of siding over foam insulation would work better around here as stucco does not seem to hold up well around here, we get lots of freeze thaw cycles through out the winter as well as high humidity and salt in the air from the atlantic ocean.

I talked on the phone to a rep from a distributor for heating supplies, he is planing to be around soon and is suppose to give me a call an stop by to see the building and give some ideas, what he came up with on the phone sounds very expensive, and yes the first thing he suggested was foam insulation.

We will see how it goes with the rep and start pricing insulation and siding.

[dsgsr]

Isn't heat lost more rapidly through the ceiling than the walls?  If so, would more capping be  in order?

David

[Hilltop366]

Isn't heat lost more rapidly through the ceiling than the walls?  If so, would more capping be  in order?

David

Yes, it's was done when we converted to apartments back in 2005 along with 1 1/2" of xps foam insulation on the north and west side foundation below and above grade.