Should I be paying???

[sigidi]

Hi All,

firstly what a great forum and wealth of info - but you all knew that already ;)

Recently managed to purchase myself a lucas mill and have now begun a four year long dream of sawmilling!!!

Which brings me to my question, I started milling as I hate to see things wasted especially big old trees from roadworks or residential development etc.

I've spoken to a local developer and have reached an agreement whereby I help them out by milling all millable timber from their developments in that way reducing the amount of waste they have to cart away and dispose of - as all this timber goes as waste and none is used. I obviously don't charge cutting rates to them as they are helping me out with a supply of timber, BUT...

Should I be paying for the pleasure of helping them out as am I reducing their disposal costs?? If I am being obtuse about it then all apologies and what should be the rate I am paying? Here in Oz we work in cubic metres but figures in board feet is fine.

Any help much appreciated.

Allan.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 PAYING ???  For what ???  If they supply the logs, you supply the mill and labor, you get ½ the lumber. That's how we do it ???  If ya wanna pay, load yer mill and come on over here. I got GOOD logs for ya to saw.  : : ;D ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

Who gets the lumber?  If you're keeping the wood and they don't want any money, then consider it a good deal  ;)   If they keep the lumber, then you should be paid for your services.

A lot depends on what type of wood is being sawn, the quality, and how much trash you hit in the logs.  Too much dirt, stones or metal will make even free logs too expensive.

[sigidi]

Thx FDH maybe one day I might get over there to see how milling is really done!! ;D ;D

Ron, and FDH I get to keep the lumber after sawing, but have to pay for it, which is ok if that's the done thing, but was just thinking that if it wasn't for me and my expended $'s for the mill, time to drop the trees and mill them, sweat and heaving whilst milling and the odd long string of cussing required when doing something totally new, then the developer would have to pay someone more $'s than if I hadn't come along ??? ???

Most of which will be from the Eucalyptus family or hardwoods as known here in Oz, this is a guess based upon what naturally grows around here.
Also quality is a very unknown quantity, but I am thinking with the most part being bush type areas, hopefully no 'dirt' will be found, but obviously the first breakeage I come across the price paid for the timber by myself will be much reduced.

What would be a fair rate to pay the developer, given that I am reducing their removal expenses but getting to keep 100% of the cut timber???

TIA.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  That's a tricky question. If you get all the lumber, that's a whole different story. If I read this right, you are felling, bucking, maybe skidding and then sawing ??? Still looks like the developer is getting the best deal. I would offer 1/3rd to the developer AT BEST. Sell his 1/3rd for him if you have to and negotiate expenses for your part of his part, time, phone calls, delivery ???

  You will have to know the wood and it's value and proceed accordingly???  Must be others where you are that might have a better handle on your part of the world???

  Figure his expenses of he DID pay to remove. Sometimes it's not good to saw on-site. The tree owner sees all those $$$$ piling up, and gets a feeling that you are getting rich. Are you ???  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

[sigidi]

Getting rich - well maybe one day hopefully ;D ;D

AS for the timber, we are building and I like making a bit of furniture as we need it, so having a good cheap supply to furnish these needs is my biggest concern. Surplus to that can then be found a new home at the going rate - hopefully much more than it cost me to acquire, mill and store ;) :D

I have 25 acres to look at as the first 'job' tomorrow, so was trying to find out a figure to put forward. HTe deveoplers position is they are truly happy for me to reduce their removal costs, but as you say thay are concerned about the land owners getting some kind of re-imbursement for 'their' timber, which is totally fine - I'm not out to rip any one off or try to make a quick SQUILLION $'s, but am wary the deveoper may be charging th eland owner to remove the 'waste' and getting $'s from me and in so doing get their expenses tottaly paid for.

Maybe I'm a pessimist ???

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well what you described is good buisiness for the developer and not illegal or immoral...in an obvious sense........

Having said that, it would burn me up personally to be asked to pay for the priveledge to work as hard as sawmilling is!!!!

 I guess that you are making a SMALL token payement in the place of sharing the timber? I would keep it low....like 0.05-0.10 TOPS (US dollar) most  like 5 cents...there is no cost to them , it is waste, conditions are poor for you , they ARENT LOGGING and selling to a logger, they are dispossing of trash....the price inferes more worth, thereby setting the tone for future deals and precident.....soon they will be asking for bids if they think it is worth so much!!!! :D :D
Give em a little doe if necissary and have great fun cuttin ;)

[VA-Sawyer]

Was the contractor paying the land owner anything for his timber before you came along ? It sounds to me like you are doing him a favor by reducing his disposal costs. I think paying for helping them out is going overboard.  If they think the lumber is so valuable, try selling them some at a good price.  ;D   They probably won't think it is such high value stuff when they are on the buying end.
VA-Sawyer

[Percy]

This sounds like it could be a good deal but Im still scketchy on the details. If I had to fall, buck and skid, I would price that out separately. If I had to clean up, rough land scape yadda,Id add that to the bill as well. If the lumber was easy to sell for a fair price, Id split it half and half  and then give him a bill for the  felling/skidding/yadda.

If you are happy to just saw and it dosent matter if you make anything, well thats fine but the example you made can be used against other millers in the area to drive prices down. As I learned years ago, you want to be competitive but not a "cut throat idiot" as I was called for working ridiculiously cheap ;D

[sigidi]

THx to all for your wise words...

I was a bit put out that I would be paying them for the privledge of me working for them!

It would seem quite idiotic of me to pay someone so I can 'sub-contract' to them doing a job which I should normally receive the $'s : :-/

Any other viewpoints will be happily accepted.

[Ron Wenrich]

A typical mill situation over here is that the mill will buy standing timber from the landowner.  They then will cut, skid, haul and mill the trees into logs then into lumber.  Mills set prices on the quality and quantity.  It varies from woodlot to woodlot, depending on difficulty.

You could do the same thing with this timber.  Pay the landowner whatever it is worth.  Developer gets nothing, since it isn't his timber.

If he cuts and skids the logs, then he should get the going price for logs.  It may be better if the developer does this so you aren't in his way when he wants to get to moving dirt.

Prices for raw materials may be available from your provincial forestry office.  Another source is a university that has a forestry department.  

[sigidi]

Thx Ron, your comment does bring up a question I was posing to myself and that is, "If I am paying some $'s for the timber to the landowner, then shouldn't he be involved in the negotiation of price?"

The more I think about it, the more I feel the developer is trying to make a quick $. I saw the 25 acres yesterday and there is only about 15 trees I would feel are big enough for me to safely put the Lucas over and 5-10 maybe's (as I'm new to my mill I'm not totally sure about it's lower end capacity)

Given the advice from much more knowledgeable sources such as the FF, I am going to offer a very small amout per cube and if it isn't accepted then I'll look for other sources while I keep building on off-mill days.

Thanks, Allan

[Ron Wenrich]

In my area, developers usually buy the land, then put in the roads and utilities, then build the houses.  In that case, the developer is the landowner.

But, you also have where a contractor (can be a developer) builds a house for a landowner.  In this case, the landowner owns the trees, not the contractor.  The contractor could act as an agent of the landowner, if there is some sort of contract.

I would want to make sure of who has the ownership before I was cutting and paying.  You don't want to get caught in the middle of things.

Another option you have is to find where they are taking them to dispose of them.  Go there and offer to saw them up.  They have their money and you just may get the logs for free.

[sigidi]

Ron Ron Ron,

what a T'riffic Idea!!! 8) ;D

No then why didn't I think of that ??? :D

They just take them off to our local dump - I've already been in touch with the local dump manager and he has mentioned they have a huge problem with the timber being brought in as they accept all free of charge and then have to pay a contractor to come in and chip it up periodically.

Maybe as you so wisely put I'll aproach the dump about reducing their costs and see if they are willing to save money rather than make money??? Very fortuitous for me ;)

Thanks Ron that will be this days task!!! (it's just gone 10AM here)

[Ianab]

Hi Sigidi

Dont be scared of the small logs :D
If you set up your log bunks with the right size notches you can cut stupidly small logs. It seems cutting square notches a couple of different sizes gives the best results. I've cut 6" logs on my Peterson easily enough.
Of course unless it's something special you then have to ask if the 4 4"x1" boards were worth the effort. Your cubic m per hour will go WAY down  :D

Ian

[Cedarman]

To me the critical thing is to work backwards from the finished goods.  You need to know the value of the finished goods. You can check for tramp metal in the standing trees with a metal detector. It may not find it all, but will give you confidence that the butt logs are free of metal. You need to measure the trees and estimate the board footage. Next estimate the value of the wood if you sold the lumber. Figure the cost of cutting the trees, moving the logs and sawing into lumber. Figure the cost of moving and stacking the lumber. With all this lumber sawed, stacked or sold, you should know what your costs are.  If you do not you are flying blind and there is no way to know if you are getting into a good deal or not.  Knowing the value of your lumber, subtract your costs. This should give you the break even cost of the standing trees.
Assuming the standing trees have value, now you can bargain from strength. The person who has the trees should make money by having you buy the trees or give them to you, otherwise they have no incentive to work with you.
Somehow you need to find the costs to the tree owner if he does not use you.  What will his disposal costs be? Is there someone else they can sell them to? If you are the only game in town, describe to him how you are saving them money by giving the trees to you.  You have to do a sales job.  Just my 3 cents worth.

[sigidi]

Thx again!!

always great to wake up and find out what info I have gained in my sleep ;)

Ianab,
as our machinery is quite similar can you post me a pic of your bunks and maybe throw in some dimensions. I have made a set of bunks with loading tapers (if that's what they are called) also made myself a cant hook ;D works like a dream considering it was a sketch on a peice of metal!!! ;D ;D

Anyway back on topic I am using a set of wedges to hold my logs on the bunks any help from y'all would be terrific

[Hokiemill]

Sigidi,

Here is a recent thread on bunks for swingmills.  It may be helpful.

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1091496122

[FeltzE]

Sigidi,

Every area has its business trends as to who pays for what and how much and what is fair...

Given that, I often am called when there is salvageable timber around. I come in pick it up and leave. Many times I'll pick up several tons of wood including unsawable stock. I feel that if they need the timber removed and are willing to give it to me I can take some scrap with it too. As a rule I don't pay for salvage timber, they will have to expend manhours, fuel, and pay for dump privilages to dispose of non-commercial timber. So I walk away and leave a card if they want me to pay.

You are in a different situation, You are sawing on site, therefore the appearance of "high value" lumber comming off the saw lends the contractor to believe that you are getting something for nothing. By sawing on site in view of the owner or contractor you are no longer providing a service for them of ridding them of the hassle of removal you are manufacturing a profit making product. If you haul out the log you are salvaging it and therefore the final product dosn't get seen.

.. High Value is in quotes because first of all it's a rarity that you actually get high value timber that will produce No 1 lumber. Second is you have already expended many thousands of dollars to be able to process that wood on your saw, then you still need to care for that lumber properly to get a usable product in the end.

Having salvaged timber delivered to your sawing site is worthy of payment but only for the delivery and possibly a little more for the logs if of a reasonably good quality. In our area low grade hardwoods oak, gum, poplar sell for $16 a ton at the scales. so to pay $100 to $200 for delivery of a 10 ton of timber too big for commercial use is fair (in our area).

Always keep in mind that you can saw a lot of quality sawgrade timber with out hitting tramp metal  and pay for the timber or pay less for the timber and risk more tramp metal from residential salvage timber. (Cut 2 nails in a walnut yesterday)  >:(

Sawgrade hardwood logs run about 325/mbf doyle here near fayettville NC. (For reference)  And thats delivered.

Eric

[sigidi]

Thx Eric,

what you say does put it in perspective a little bit better.

Here because of local council if I get timber delivered to home and continue to mill from home then I'll have to jump through some pretty small hoops as I am no longer a mobile mill and then come under all sorts of requirements and different legislation regarding big commericial-type sawmills. Although I do understand the benefits of this type of process.

I suppose the original landowner would be doing exactly as you mention looking at me milling and seeing $$$'s coming out the end of the mill, the thing that gets me is if I'm to be "paying a bit of re-imbursement for the landowner" their words, then shouldn't the landowner be involved in the price negotiations??

Someone mentioned earlier - best check to see who actually owns the timber before milling it, I may be making a deal with the wrong folkes!!

Thx for all the info everyone

[FeltzE]

Sigidi,

Having timber delivered to your home for your own use is normally within the confines of the laws in residential areas, what gets you in trouble is having it delivered, processing it then reselling it, then you can be potentially considered industrial, or commercial for the manufacture and or resale.

When receiving timber from a contractor the determination should be made that the contractor is removing the timber based on the contracted requirements and not selling standing timber that would otherwise be the property of the landowner. It could be argued that if there is any profit to be gained that the property owner should ultimately receive the gain as the true owner, however if the owner contracted to have the area landscaped and those trees removed, it then becomes a factor of the contract. The contractor could have bid the job based on a resale of the timber value or the cost of the disposal of the waste (timber). I would recommend that if there is any question that a written contract for the timber sale or split for sawing is complete before pulling equipment on site or removing stock.

I failed to mention earlier, that if I don't go for the 50/50 split of lumber for free logs. I have done that in the past especially when I first got started. But I have found that if you don't have a dry place to wharehouse the lumber you are ultimately in a loosing battle. Poor looking lumber that has been out in the weather for 6 months dosn't have the sale value that bright lumber fresh off the mill has. I try to keep an assortment of logs on hand rather than an assortment of lumber. Its easier to keep the right inventory, and my inventory can support any of several different cut requirements when still in the log form but you won't get a 2x6 out of 2x4 in the near future.

Last comment.... Always take care of your sources, If a contractor, tree service or utility company routinely comes your way with free timber, keep them on your phone list, and give them a call see if they need any lumber for local projects. IF they show with a big order give them a substantial discount, if they need a few boards for a project make it a freebe.

Eric

[Arthur]

Sigidi

We have supplied mills for a lot of milling contractor and have a data base on charges they make for Australian hardwoods.

What we advise with the cost of running a swinger is a min. of $200 per hour or $300 per cubic for milling onsite where they keep the wood.

If you are buying low quality with cost $30 to $50 per cubic.  Good logs (1.5m x 6m) with no pipe can cost $500 per cubic.  I have seen 5cu m murry gum going for $4000 for the log.

Remember to messure and price in log cubic not cut timber cubic as your recovery rate will depend on the quality of the log.

Worth watching Don MaCay on site behind the Coolangatta airport.  He has been there for some years milling for the developers.  They in turn use the wood for most of the fencing for the development.

[FeltzE]

On another note, if the contractor needs lumber and is willing to provide the timber, contract to come in and saw for a fee just like any other customer.

I have sawn for out of state contractors that have come to our area. One in particular was doing a "site clean up" from an old gas plant in the down town area. They took out several trees. They found me and contracted me to haul them out and sawmill them. They sent a truck to haul them 400 miles north when done.

Eric

[sigidi]

Hi to all,

thx heaps for all the great info.

Just a quick update - I've agreed to pay $10 per log cubic metre (about 425 board foot of log) also as there is issues with general public coming on site while I'm milling they prefered it if I hauled the logs away.

On ownership of logs the developer confirmed as Ron said, they have purchased the land and therefore the tree's are their's - so as I suspected I won't actually be paying the land owner anything for their logs... so this was more than likely a bit of BS :-/

Haulage of the 15 trees has been quoted to take about two hours to complete to my milling location at $88/hour.

So to sum up I'm paying $0.02 board foot and hauling the logs away at about $176 expense to me for what the developer just trashes and has to pay someone to get rid of for them.

One thing which I keep hanging on to is, at least these trees will be used for something rather than just wasted and that was the whole idea behing my business in the first place - tree cycling I think it's known as.
Before I go (and give you all a chance to tell me how silly I was - which is totally fine, any pointers greatly received) I'd like to let you all know this is a one time only thing, next one will be negotiatied a little better, or I'll look elswhere.

THX

[Buzz-sawyer]

I think you made out fine.... ;)
I recomended paying no more than 5 cents....so, you will come out way ahead iff you can find/make a market for the stuff..... 8)
I see no problem repeating the deal over and over.....cheap enough, Do you have to cut it down?
I buy standing hardwood for 4 or 5 cents and pay all expenses......your doin better than me...... :D