??Calculating board feet on framing lumber??

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

...........as long as you and the buyer are on the same page.

I have posted no replies in this thread but have read everything twice.
Beenthere made the best statement IMO and this is how I operate. 

[Fedge]

I guess this is the way I see it but it certainly doesn't mean its right. Sawing lumber and selling lumber are different animals but I am going to focus on sawing. This applies to sawing someone else logs and not your own. If the thickness is less than an inch, its treated as an inch. If its greater than an inch its treated as its actual size. 1.5" = 1.5" not 2" If you charge by the bd/ft you actually make more money sawing thicker stock and are actually doing less sawing.  A 12x12 cant at 2" takes 5 passes and at 1" takes 11 passes. You make more money sawing thicker stock already so I think its reasonable to charge at the "no air" rate.

However, if you can get it you might as well take it. As long as the customer knows going in that they are being charged for "air" I have no problem with it. It would seem to me that from a customer relations standpoint that "you get what you pay for" would result in happier clients.

Geoff

[Larry]

A board foot is a volume measure that can be mathematically defined.  Just the same as a gallon, cord of wood, or yard of gravel.  Of course the government felt the need to step in to settle disputes.

Most customers have no idea what a board foot looks like but they do know it is a volume measure and they should be able to use that to get a fair cost comparison between sawyers.

For the sawyer that includes air, that can be explained in the fine print or glossed over in conversation.  Of course he could never honestly quote a board foot price unless he included the exceptions.  And I doubt most of the folks we saw for would understand those exceptions or if they did, agree with them.

Now if my board foot charge was 40 cents but I actually get 60 cents when air sawing 2 X 4's I wouldn't do much sawing.  60 cents bf puts the 2 X 4 cost way over lumber yard prices if transportation, additional processing, and incidental fees are included.  I doubt if many explain the board foot rate this way.  It would be too complicated as the rate changes with each dimension.

Of course one needs to be extra diligent in this day and age.  I bought a gallon of mineral spirits at TSC the other day.  When I got home I happened to notice it wasn't quite as big as my other gallon.  I looked at the label and it said 120 ounces.  All perfectly legal as agreed upon by seller and the not so smart buyer. 

I don't saw air.

[Peter Drouin]

Easy for me, All my customers all want full size lumber. We have a snow load up here. :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D

[ely]

if I am sawing for someone ,that someone tells me what size lumber they want and I saw that size lumber, fairly simple. if they buy my lumber they pay cash for my lumber regardless of dimensions... I still charge .25 cents a bdft to saw logs for other people, you would be amazed at the amount of folks that travel on because that's too high. I always tell them that my dad would do it for .30 cents.
also those people I saw for gets the lumber out of their logs, all of it... not just what the scale says. that's how I make money.
pss, when I buy logs I pay folks for what the scale stick says is in the log, not what I may saw out of it.thats how I make money too. ;D

[caveman]

If the customer pays 2"x8" bf prices for 1 1/2" x 7 1/4" lumber he still realizes some advantages over buying full sized boards.
1.  16 d nails are the proper length for fastening
2.  He gets more boards per log for the same money while my blade makes more passes and the off-loader has more boards to stack and more stickers to use
3.  They will dry a little quicker
4.  Commonly used framing brackets will fit (Simpson strong ties, etc.)
5.  It is easier to match up and repair structures made out of store bought lumber

Recently, Jmoore and I sawed three logs for a nice older fellow.  We gave him the option of full size or store bought sizes out of his logs.  He chose the store bought sizes.  When he came to pick up his lumber, I gave him the price for the actual board footage for the actual sizes sawn.  He wanted to pay the full price, which was over $50 more than what I wrote on the invoice.  We split the difference and he was excited that he got a really good bargain.  Then he began complaining about how much he spent at the box store for PT lumber recently.  He said he paid twice as much and got less than half as much. We also through in quite a few feebies (a few smaller thickness boards that were not wasted in slabs getting to the proper sized cants and some boards with some bark but that were usable as shorter boards).

I think as long as the sawyer and the customer are on the same page and agree, either way is acceptable. 

We enjoyed visiting for an hour or more after I loaded his lumber.  He is already planning the next sawing job for us and even asked me about planing some boards he had sawn years ago by someone else.

Thank you to everyone for your responses and opinions.
Caveman

[customsawyer]

 

[ladylake]

 So if we put a 100 hp diesel on we should really increase production over a 50 hp diesel?   Steve

[red oaks lumber]

sure it would as long as the mill was designed to handle a 100 hp motor.

[Magicman]

hp ??

[ladylake]

 Fuzzy mind this morning, posted on the wrong thread.   Steve

[FarmingSawyer]

Been reading through all the rational arguments for pricing here....good stuff, all.  When I worked for a small mill years ago, we sawed  full dimension, but planed to 1-5/8" x Y-5/8".....just they way the old boy did it..... Some 2x4's these days measure 1-3/8's by 3-3/8.....shrinkage? I don't think so......

For custom milling, it's best to clarify with the customer....and if they don't know what they want tell them how you do it and stick with it....too many choices and they go all over the shop.

Something else to remember..... Ungraded lumber, IF it is allowed in a structure--can never tell from one area to the next these days--usually must be full dimension, or even a size or two larger than the conventional, graded, s4s piece if it structural..... I've run in to this several times as a builder, and while working for the mill..... I even studied to be a grader so that our mill could stop having to oversize beams and we could increase sales.....but the costs of maintaining a grade stamp was too high for the amount we sold which needed grading. If only I could have traveled around to the other mills in the area and offered a per-diem grading service I would have worked harder to make it work....but the rules attach the grader to the mill

[scsmith42]

If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same.  If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4. 

You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same.  They are clearly not the same.

I view it this way as well, with some caveats for dried and surfaced lumber.

If I'm selling a milling service, I charge for the actual board foot milled, with lumber milled less than 4/4 billed as 4/4.  Thus, 1-5/8" is measured as 1-5/8", not 2".   We charge extra per bd ft for quartersawing as well as large beams due to the additional losses and associated costs.

When I'm selling kiln dried lumber, I sell by the "dry, rough sawn measure.".  This means that in order to sell a 5/4 QSWO board that is kiln dried, I have to mill a 1-7/16" green board to allow for the extra shrinkage that QS oak experiences while drying.  I used to saw at 1-3/8" for 5/4, but had too many boards that would not S2S at 1" so I upped my milling thickness by 1/16".   This is especially beneficial on wide, QS boards to help ensure that they will S2S across the entire width and length of the board.

I take the time to explain the drying process to customers (as well as grade sawing), and educate them about proper milling sizes / patterns in order to yield dry lumber that meets their needs.

KD QS oak stock sells for more per bd ft not only because of the drying costs, but also because of the drying losses.  If I flat saw the entire oak log, just from drying losses alone I will net another 5% of dry yield.  This is because FS oak shrinks 5- 6% in thickness versus 10 - 12% for QS oak.

When I sell S2S (which for me is 1 face flattened, second face dimensioned and both faces surfaced) stock, I charge for the rough sawn board footage plus the S2S costs.  If the board is extremely wide, it may require a 5/4 rough sawn blank in order to produce a 3/4" S2S finished board, and I charge accordingly.

[Peter Drouin]

If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same.  If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4. 

You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same.  They are clearly not the same.

I view it this way as well, with some caveats for dried and surfaced lumber.

If I'm selling a milling service, I charge for the actual board foot milled, with lumber milled less than 4/4 billed as 4/4.  Thus, 1-5/8" is measured as 1-5/8", not 2".   We charge extra per bd ft for quartersawing as well as large beams due to the additional losses and associated costs.

When I'm selling kiln dried lumber, I sell by the "dry, rough sawn measure.".  This means that in order to sell a 5/4 QSWO board that is kiln dried, I have to mill a 1-7/16" green board to allow for the extra shrinkage that QS oak experiences while drying.  I used to saw at 1-3/8" for 5/4, but had too many boards that would not S2S at 1" so I upped my milling thickness by 1/16".   This is especially beneficial on wide, QS boards to help ensure that they will S2S across the entire width and length of the board.

I take the time to explain the drying process to customers (as well as grade sawing), and educate them about proper milling sizes / patterns in order to yield dry lumber that meets their needs.

KD QS oak stock sells for more per bd ft not only because of the drying costs, but also because of the drying losses.  If I flat saw the entire oak log, just from drying losses alone I will net another 5% of dry yield.  This is because FS oak shrinks 5- 6% in thickness versus 10 - 12% for QS oak.

When I sell S2S (which for me is 1 face flattened, second face dimensioned and both faces surfaced) stock, I charge for the rough sawn board footage plus the S2S costs.  If the board is extremely wide, it may require a 5/4 rough sawn blank in order to produce a 3/4" S2S finished board, and I charge accordingly.