oak timbers

[jmouton]

        just curious  about pricing  on  oak timbers  ,   10 by 10s,,, 8 by 8s ,, 10 fters ,,, when we sell  wood from our logs we generally sell by the board ft ,  but on these big  timbers  in my mind they are specialty  pieces  and should be priced differently  , higher  since they are  going on a custom home  and are harder to move around  , just trying to get  an idea if  we are right in charging more even though they are easier to cut ,  just making a cant , so basically making 4 cuts and done , simple  ,  we  just  would like to know  the  FF  opinion  ,  so please chime in,,, thanks



                                                                                                           jim

[WDH]

They are probably going to split, crack, and check bad.  Thick oak cants dry poorly. 

[jmouton]

  hey  wdh  can you take them to the kiln ,  or will it cost a fortune  to dry

[WDH]

Never tried to dry oak timbers that big.  Still learning how to kiln dry wood.  I am doing fine on the 4/4 stuff, but the thick stuff still makes me nervous.  Stuff that thick (as yours) makes me more than nervous, a little scary for sure. 

I would factor in what I could sell the lumber in the log for as more conventional lumber, like 4/4, then add a premium to that for the difficulty of handling such large, heavy pieces.   

[drobertson]

Do you folks sell cross ties?  that is about the size you are mentioning here,  not sure as of now, but they were bringing near .60 bdft.   this has been about  where I start in pricing.  Good thing about ties, there is a constant buyer.

[red oaks lumber]

i wouldn't even think about drying a timber that size. your results will resemble firewood 

[dgdrls]

Hi Jim, 

drobertson  makes a good comparison in RR ties price and sales.

IMHO If your customer wants/orders  "custom" timbers
than yes charge more.

DGDrls

[Dave Shepard]

You won't get far trying to dry timbers in a conventional kiln. A lot of timbers get dried in radio frequency vacuum kilns, but that is usually Doug fir, I don't know if it's done with hardwoods. Personally, I wouldn't work a hardwood that was more than a month or so away from the stump. ;)

Timbers require more effort than ties. They have to be of a higher grade, which should be discussed with the buyer. They must be square, cut accurately, and handled without any damage or iron stain. This all takes time.

[customsawyer]

The timbers I cut for timber frame homes don't sell for less than $1800/M. There is lots of extra care in making sure that the timbers are of the quality that will make a timber frame home. I would also let the customer know that there is going to be some checking when it dries and that he can't come back mad at you. All of the timbers I saw for timber frame homes is Cypress and is lots more forgiving.

[jmouton]

           the logs  we will be cutting  them out of  are  at least a year and a half  old,  cut down,  I  was wondering if for example we need a 10 by 10 ,  cut it to a 12 by 12 and let it dry for 3 months and then recut it  to 10 by 10  ,  would that help ,   since he want us to cut now and let sit for 3 months until he is ready to use ,  I gave him a price today  and he hasnt  got back to me yet ,  so  maybe we dont have to worry about it ,  I understand  checking  in the wood and  what if you put end sealer all over four sides of the timber , would that help,  ,  it would be great if we had cypress here  in mich , but i dont think there is alot of it around , and would have to travel  to get it , maybe its something we just cant do  with the logs we have ,  i dont know ,  maybe i'll  cut  a cant  and let it sit for a while and see what happens  with sealer on it ,,hmmmm  something to ponder,


                                                                                             jim

[drobertson]

they sound like some good size logs, with that age there will be a good loss on the corners due to sap rot.  Keeping out of direct sunlight will help.  also rotating periodically will  help a lil as well.   I was looking at several just today, the faces towards the sky were badly checked. the side faces had no checks at all, not sure about this, just how they were laying and the checks were all on the top face.

[woodmills1]

I sell lots of 12x12 10x10 8x8 6x6 to a company in the rock crushing business.  If it is a loose order for a mixture of sizes they intend to cut into shorter lengths I charge 80 cents a bd ft and use old logs.  If they don't clean up well at 12 by I drop to 10  then 8etc.  If the order is for specific pieces I stay at 80 cents for 8 foot lengths up to 8 x 8.  Any specific order for longer than 8 foot and including numerous 10 by and 12 by I go to a dollar.  Also all 16 foot pieces are at a buck fifty.  They don't complain

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not sure that drying is all that important in timber framing.  You might want to go to the timber frame board and ask about that. 

Many framers use pine.  I sawed a bunch for a local framer, and he let it sit until he used it.  In his case, part of it had to do with money.  But, we cut it about 1/2" plump and he had it planed.

There is a company in the state that does do framing in oak.  I had been through their plant several years ago.  They did all the joinery on site and were working to within a few thousands of an inch.  They bought the oak from local mills, but they had to be pretty clean.  Their site is saying that a rule of thumb on drying is about 1" per year.  If you have a good, boxed heart, the piece will have cracks, but it won't effect the structural integrity of the house.  Sawing into a large cant, then sawing down to a smaller size later will only remove the dry stock off the sides. 

We also sawed heavy timbers for railroad bridges.  They were sold green.  We got some pretty good prices for them when oak prices were high.  But, they didn't have to look pretty.  Just be sound.

[WoodenHead]

Would there be a difference in splitting/checking if the timbers were sawn heart centered or out of heart center?  Would sawing out of heart center even be an option (need rather large logs for one thing) for timbers - i.e. prone to bow?

[drobertson]

I don't have numbers to verify, but of the few FOH beams I have sawn out, seems like every one of them had a bow to them, some worse than others, There may be a trick to it, I have not found it yet. 

[Ron Wenrich]

I've sawn a bit of cabin stock, and even helped build a cabin using them.  Practically anytime that the heart is split, you'll get bowing.  Tie buyers frown on ties split down the heart.  I have sawn some heavier timbers with no heart.  Carving stock for decoys in basswood is one that comes to mind.  But, that is for some soft material that is short in length.

The other thing to consider is that the any deep cracks will go to the heart.  Its best to have the heart centered. 

[beenthere]

There may be a trick to it, I have not found it yet.

No trick. Just the facts that trees grow with tension stress accumulating in the annual rings as the trees age.
Some species, and in some growing conditions (i.e. hillside) this tension stress can be more in the outer surface.

[backwoods sawyer]

If you know you are going to split the hart leave a an inch or two extra and recut to size after after splitting, using several cuts from both sides to get there. Square, straight and accurate. ;)

[drobertson]

It all sounds good, not talking about splitting the pith,  just a free of heart  cant, they bow, pretty much it,
unless someone knows otherwise,  I always leave over an inch on the pith, pretty much standard around here,  they bow too, 

[WDH]

Although I have not a great deal of experience of cutting timbers, I suspect an inch from the pith is not enough because the juvenile core that causes the "C" bow in boards/timbers can be 6" or more in diameter (at least in southern pine, probably a little smaller in oak).  This juvenile wood shrinks a little longitudinally while the more mature wood on the outside of the board/beam does not, pulling the board/timber into that hated "C" shape.  Putting the whole juvenile core in the timber balances out things, and the timber if more likely to stay straighter. 

David, have you noticed a critical distance from the pith where the timber will not bow if the timber is Free-OF-Heart-Center?

[drobertson]

Danny I have not, it was several years ag0 when I was doing these beams, with SYP,  I was sawing large logs, getting three per log, the two outers bowed varying amounts every time, while the heart centered was as we would expect, pretty straight,  the last ones were 6x12x20  it did seem the bigger the log the better the FOH beams were, 

[backwoods sawyer]

Although I have not a great deal of experience of cutting timbers, I suspect an inch from the pith is not enough because the juvenile core that causes the "C" bow in boards/timbers can be 6" or more in diameter (at least in southern pine, probably a little smaller in oak).  This juvenile wood shrinks a little longitudinally while the more mature wood on the outside of the board/beam does not, pulling the board/timber into that hated "C" shape.  Putting the whole juvenile core in the timber balances out things, and the timber if more likely to stay straighter. 

Seems like the Juvinile wood is the outside new growth just under the cambiam layer rather then the "Core" of the tree, and the core is the mature wood ???
When milling timbers just a shave off the pith was always the target and they were milled 1"-1 1/2" over sized to allow for planning to size.

[Brleclaire]

I would charge a little more for having to handle the larger beams. Just be up front about it before starting to saw. Worst case scenario he says he doesn't want you to saw the beams. The beams will most likely crack/check when drying. I would tell him this also but that's suppose to add to the character of the beam. There are some good threads in timber framing section to check out.

[beenthere]

Seems like the Juvinile wood is the outside new growth just under the cambiam layer rather then the "Core" of the tree, and the core is the mature wood

Might seem that way, but not by convention or by definition. Juvenile wood is mostly used in conjunction with southern yellow pine. It is a form of reaction wood somewhat particular to those species in behavior.

[woodmills1]

I box and center anything that is going to be used at full length with no other attachments.   I make 4 x 6 16 foot oaks all the time for room expansions.  It is not the shrinkage that will ever matter, it is the off center twist, or bow or cup and bend that will ruin the job.  (most likely much later), and that hurts most when the job was at a friends house.  Believe it or not there is stil a major local cow milking farm in massacushetts right next to me.  He called for two 16 foot 4 by 6 to put a hay wagon back together.  I said may take a while, he said why 16 foot length?  I said, " no only certain trees can do that job, too bad all the elms are gone."