Trying to sell some of my standing timber

[BargeMonkey]

 I went with a home owner last summer to walk a local woodlot, he was doing it for a family member trying to look after thier best interests. Small lot, 1 good load of HM and RO saw logs, 4-5 loads of firewood and 1-2 loads of pulp. It would cost me 1 days time to clean the header, few bales of hay and bag of seed, I figured it was worth 2800.00 in cash right then and there. The landowner was having financial problems and needed the most they could get. There was another guy walking it with us from up north, told the landowner my prices just wherent enough and he can do better. Promised them 5k for the sawlogs and firewood, and 1/2 of the pulp. They never saw a nickle. Never cleaned up. Cut the best, loaded the skidder and left. Even smashed the camper window to get the game camera the landowner had placed. Place looks like a bomb went off. Landowner asked me what to do..?  I said to lose my phone number, I had warned them all along, I hate seeing someone ripped off but it happens all the time. In that example a forester may have saved them, but again they didnt wanna spemd the 15-20% for the forester.

[treeslayer2003]

I went with a home owner last summer to walk a local woodlot, he was doing it for a family member trying to look after thier best interests. Small lot, 1 good load of HM and RO saw logs, 4-5 loads of firewood and 1-2 loads of pulp. It would cost me 1 days time to clean the header, few bales of hay and bag of seed, I figured it was worth 2800.00 in cash right then and there. The landowner was having financial problems and needed the most they could get. There was another guy walking it with us from up north, told the landowner my prices just wherent enough and he can do better. Promised them 5k for the sawlogs and firewood, and 1/2 of the pulp. They never saw a nickle. Never cleaned up. Cut the best, loaded the skidder and left. Even smashed the camper window to get the game camera the landowner had placed. Place looks like a bomb went off. Landowner asked me what to do..?  I said to lose my phone number, I had warned them all along, I hate seeing someone ripped off but it happens all the time. In that example a forester may have saved them, but again they didnt wanna spemd the 15-20% for the forester.

boy do i ever hate it when a lo says; i sure wish i had you cut my timber

[treeslayer2003]

since we are talking about it, this one gets me hot every time.
sorry but your a little low on your per thousand price even though you cruised it 50% more than they did.
or your 10% under this guy......but he gonna clear cut it or high grade it......they didn't realise this till after.
tricks to get the sale sometimes work but i will not do it. it seams to be standard practice here.

[BargeMonkey]

 Ive had a few calls recently from people with inflated dreams, they hear stories of 50k+ timber sales. People think a harvest is like an ATM, quick clean and done. Had a landowner recently tell me another "person" told them that they could get more for the pulp. I politely asked them if they planned on paying state and federal taxes with the money they received, their eyes get wide...  8)   

[chester_tree _farmah]

Question. When does the LO get their check in a bid job? Up front?

[jwilly3879]

Usually the check is cut when the contract is signed and the deal is done. The LO gets no more , no less. Like BargeMonkey said earlier only what's in the contract is done. I have seen jobs where anything that didn't go for logs (pine) was left piled on the landing.

[Ed_K]

I've done contracts of 50% at signing and the rest after 30 days of starting.Depends on how much wineing i can get away with  ;D .

[GlennCz]

Ive had a few calls recently from people with inflated dreams, they hear stories of 50k+ timber sales.

They do exist.  The problem is that almost everything has been already cut.  All of it high graded.  I can see that driving around.

[BargeMonkey]

Ive had a few calls recently from people with inflated dreams, they hear stories of 50k+ timber sales.

They do exist.  The problem is that almost everything has been already cut.  All of it high graded.  I can see that driving around.

I read in a magazine recently that Delaware county had the largest concentration of timber and biomass in the northeast. Yes alot of places have been hammered, but I know spots around here that havent seen a saw in 75 years. My last woodlot was cut in the 50's. We find alot of wood where the farm tractor or crawler couldnt get too. We average 1 load per acre on 90% of my jobs, and thats taking both the good and the bad, not hammering or high grading them. As far as utilization we have it down to a T. If we cant ship it, we saw it ourselves into grade stakes, if not it goes thru the firewood processor.  The softwood either gets sawed or burned, I have a good market for junk pine, for either OWB fuel or the shaving mill down the road. Thats the name of the game, and how you can get the most for the landowner.

[treeslayer2003]

50k sale is common here, only takes around 50 acres or less depending on the stand.......i have seen it on 15 acres.
it does seem on the bigger sales bids can vary wildly.

[BargeMonkey]

 Region 4 in NYS was famous for small woodlots, for years you where just about restricted to a 440 skidder,  450 dozer to get the small lots from the forester. Now with the cut backs, and changes they will not mark a lot for under 10k minimum bid. That basically knocks the little guys out. You figure the woodlots for 10-20-30k, the bond which can be quite a bit, and the markets youve really cut the small guys out. Not a fan of the way things are going.

[chester_tree _farmah]

Usually the check is cut when the contract is signed and the deal is done. The LO gets no more , no less. Like BargeMonkey said earlier only what's in the contract is done. I have seen jobs where anything that didn't go for logs (pine) was left piled on the landing.

Thanks guys.

So I can see how a bid sale is a legit business process and the logger is taking an educated gamble. The logger is also putting up money upfront and needs to be bonded - in some states. The land owner gets the check up front - which is a benefit to some - and should be able to trust the forester and walk away without getting involved. If their ends up being more wood and the logger makes a little more so be it. The logger may also end up getting less money than they thought.

The logger is assuming the risk. That is how these transactions work in other areas of business. When a car dealer bids on a car it is an educated guess. They get to look the car over and hear it run but they don't get to pull it apart and see what's inside. Just like loggers don't get to cut the trees down and check the inside before bidding. The car dealer bids and if he wins the bid he gets the car as is. He now assumes the risk and he could make money or lose money. Depending on what he really needs to put into it and how much he gets for it.

I can see where there is room for unethical behavior in this process but the same can be said for a % sale where the landowner sees the slips. They just indited a contractor and his wife up here for altering scale slips and they aren't a small operation.  :-(

[jwilly3879]

I've always felt that if I need to be dishonest to make my business work then I'm in the wrong business or my business model is bad.

There are many good, honest loggers in this area and some that give the others a bad name.

Anytime a person is considering having any type of work done they need to check references and if possible view the actual work that was done.

As a Building inspector and retired contractor I have always preached this. Some listen and some don't, there are outfits claiming to be professionals that have little or no experience and quite often no insurance.

It is becoming more common to see credit checks done before signing a contract, it can tell a lot. With the lousy economy many outfits are deep in debt and operating on someone else's money.

[Corley5]

There are good loggers and bad loggers.  Surely ask for and check references.  On the other side there are good landowners and bad landowners.  Some just can't be pleased.  We're loggers not landscapers  

[Texas Ranger]

Amen

[luvmexfood]

I had a timber broker send a mailing a couple of years ago. Must have gotten tax maps of something but several people in the area got them. Wanted to buy forest land or standing timber. In his mailing he stated numerous times it would not cost me a dime. Didn't want to sell the timber, only what I cut myself.

My thougths were I am better to cut myself and sell to logyard than have a "middleman" who says he will not get any money from me. The money has to come from somewhere. Now I think a good consulting forester is good just beware that you have one that is looking after your best interests. If he is taking a percentage of sales then I would think hard about it.

[SwampDonkey]

Anyone have the answer for what happens when the forester has a decent over run of footage on a woodlot, which happens, and it went for bid ?  You the land owner just gave me free money, and by the lettering of the contract your stuck. Things arent always rosy with a forester, we have one here local who expects... favors...   cash....  whatever, so yeah put 100% faith in them.

Where I'm from payment is based on actual mill scale, not a cruise estimate. The landowner doesn't worry about over run. All scale slips are passed over the counter at the local marketing board. Many truckers, if not most, pick up their pay cheque from the marketing board once the scale comes in. The producer (logger/forester/land owner) of the wood same. All wood moved here has chain of custody paperwork that the truckers have to submit and can be checked out. Different system than most places I'm sure.

I developed and wrote chain of custody databases for 3 marketing boards. Each a little different and have likely evolved over time since I wrote them 12 years ago.

We also have other issues to deal with up here that others do, but not entirely the same. One is taxable income. Everyone deals with that, yes. But up here if a senior, and many woodlot owners are seniors - a high percentage. If they are on 'supplement' the meds are paid for. If you drive up their income, they loose this. So it has a domino effect. Another thing, it used to be that if you had to go the the home, your woods had to be sold off or liquidated to pay your way unless you gave over the reins at least 10 years before to another family member. That has stopped, but at any time they can change legislation and your father can now be screwed out of his assets.

About the money, I have seen $40,000 (to land owner) clearcuts for 100 acres and $45,000 stumpage to the landowner on 80 acres and 70-80 % of their timber still standing. And this based on mostly pulpwood quality woodlots up here. With the $45,000 sale a forester was involved.

[chester_tree _farmah]

Swamp Donkey - what do you attribute the difference to? Did all the wood on the 100 acre clear cut just get sent to the pulp mills? If it is all payed by scale slips. Or was there a difference in % paid to the land owner?

[SwampDonkey]

Stumpage to the owner, the forester's take was low, and marketing of products. Didn't built permanent roads, used mostly old existing roads that were cleaned out and only cut in Feb-March in two consecutive winters. Stands and trails/roads were also marked out. The crew had no guess work, just cut the wood and separated the products. The forester showed where to make cuts if the logger was unsure. If your going to cut wood you can't do it from a pickup or office desk. ;D A lot of loggers up here won't separate veneer and logs (back in 2000) from the hardwood and aspen. They will move it all as pulp most of the time. One plus was, bonuses that were paid by mills on improvement cuts for wood they received. Some mills just like to reward good work. Other mills, well ... no comment. ;)

Only complaint was taxes he was gonna have to pay. :D