Ethanol fact or fiction question?

[justallan1]

Our fuel delivery driver told my boss that the new gasoline with ethanol will break down any 2 stroke oil. Supposedly it will take the color out as well, so at least you'd know something is up.
What's the opinion on this, fact or fiction.
If so I guess I'll be buying saw gas in town.

Allan

[beenthere]

I don't think your fuel truck driver knows what he is talking about..  but just my opinion.

I wouldn't buy gas with ethanol off a delivery truck because it breaks down too fast, unless you go through more than like 100 gal a week. Again, just my opinion.

Supposedly they add the ethanol just before delivery at a local tank depot, and then peddle it to the local stations. Guess one doesn't know how long it sits in the underground tanks, so by the time one puts it in a car or brings a can home, the fuel may already have degraded considerably.

Too bad you cannot get fuel without ethanol delivered to your boss's tank.

[Southside]

I don't use a massive volume of gas so I buy it at the pump for my saws, and it has ethanol in it.  The mix stays blue and so far I have not had any issues with saw failure. 

[justallan1]

I just did some reading up on it and from what I see it stops the 2 cycle oil from adhering to the parts in some way and the solution is synthetic 2 cycle. I've been using it all along with regular 2 cycle oil and it's been working just fine for me, but I use probably a gallon a week and that's what I mix.
Yup, the driver is somehow mistaken, the way I see it.
I will look into this further though.

Allan

[Andyshine77]

??? I'm not 100% sure what the question in this thread is, but I'll try answering anyway. Ethanol in fuel does a few things. Ethanol like most alcohols attacks plastics, and rubber. Alcohol is also hydroscopic, aka it absorbs water.

So if the fuel you use has ethanol in it, use it within 30 days. It's also not a good idea to keep fuel in your saws when you not using them.

Other than that you won't notice much difference. Modern outdoor equipment deals with Ethanol pretty well, even though I think ethanol has no business being in gasoline period. Farmers welfare if you ask me.

[ZeroJunk]

I think ethanol gets blamed for some stuff it had nothing to do with. But, like he says, it will bind with water, and oil won't. So, maybe you could get pockets in your fuel that don't have as much lubrication if exposed to the atmosphere. So, keep your gas containers sealed.  I'm not worried about plastic, alcohol comes in a plastic container. But, I have seen old rubber based gas lines the consistency of bubble gum. New type lines will last many years ethanol or not. Plenty of loggers and tree service guys use ethanol gas every day with no problems. It is not the great boogey man. However, if you can find ethanol free around your location it is better.

[Andyshine77]

I think ethanol gets blamed for some stuff it had nothing to do with. But, like he says, it will bind with water, and oil won't. So, maybe you could get pockets in your fuel that don't have as much lubrication if exposed to the atmosphere. So, keep your gas containers sealed.  I'm not worried about plastic, alcohol comes in a plastic container. But, I have seen old rubber based gas lines the consistency of bubble gum. New type lines will last many years ethanol or not. Plenty of loggers and tree service guys use ethanol gas every day with no problems. It is not the great boogey man. However, if you can find ethanol free around your location it is better.

Ethonal has caused huge issues, if you work on and service OPE you know this as fact. Corrosion, hardening of carb diaphragms, hard and cracked fuel lines and so on. The other issue is ethanol fuel is unstable and has a very short shelf life. The problems I see come from storage mostly, equipment used daily will have fewer issues. Water is more dense than fuel, so it sits at the bottom of the fuel tank, which is exactly where the fuel pickup sits, so we know what happens at start up... 

[ZeroJunk]

I think ethanol gets blamed for some stuff it had nothing to do with. But, like he says, it will bind with water, and oil won't. So, maybe you could get pockets in your fuel that don't have as much lubrication if exposed to the atmosphere. So, keep your gas containers sealed.  I'm not worried about plastic, alcohol comes in a plastic container. But, I have seen old rubber based gas lines the consistency of bubble gum. New type lines will last many years ethanol or not. Plenty of loggers and tree service guys use ethanol gas every day with no problems. It is not the great boogey man. However, if you can find ethanol free around your location it is better.

Ethonal has caused huge issues, if you work on and service OPE you know this as fact. Corrosion, hardening of carb diaphragms, hard and cracked fuel lines and so on. The other issue is ethanol fuel is unstable and has a very short shelf life. The problems I see come from storage mostly, equipment used daily will have fewer issues. Water is more dense than fuel, so it sits at the bottom of the fuel tank, which is exactly where the fuel pickup sits, so we know what happens at start up...

What I am saying is that you would have had most of those problems you are blaming on ethanol with no ethanol. I worked on this stuff back when they never thought about putting ethanol in gas and you didn't just miraculously not have corrosion, water in the fuel, and failed fuel lines.

[Andyshine77]

Have you ever cut a fuel line from an engine ran on ethanol fuel in half, and had a look? I've seen fuel lines get hard and stiff in a matter of a few weeks. Yes the newer fuel components handle ethanol pretty well, but it's a known major problem. This is a fact, not just my opinion. Nearly every saw, trimmer, blower and even boat engines I work on, has fuel related issues. Issues I did not see before ethanol was added to our fuel.     

[ZeroJunk]

I repaired a Stihl weedeater yesterday and the gas line had completely disintegrated. But, once replaced it started and ran fine. I know it will eat up older gas lines. But, people are blaming it for every affliction and it is just not responsible for all of it.

[Andyshine77]

I repaired a Stihl weedeater yesterday and the gas line had completely disintegrated. But, once replaced it started and ran fine. I know it will eat up older gas lines. But, people are blaming it for every affliction and it is just not responsible for all of it.

I see what you're saying now, and I agree.

[Chop Shop]

Our local saw shop (pretenders) have a sign with about 20 different failures ALL BLAMED on ethanol.

Whats weird is that ALL those failures used to happen 20 years before ethanol was ever put in fuel.


It can cause problems.  But I feel its an AWESOME excuse for the saw shop to blame the customers fuel as the root of all evils.


Makes a great sales pitch to sell a $20 pint of mixed gas in a tin can to goobers.   Fear mongering at its best, its the american marketing way!

Run ethanol fuel, dont store it in saw.  Run saw out, put on shelf.  Even the outboard fish killers know this one.


But hey if your an internet forester, then go get that miricle fuel thats $20 a pint.

[Andyshine77]

Our local saw shop (pretenders) have a sign with about 20 different failures ALL BLAMED on ethanol.

Whats weird is that ALL those failures used to happen 20 years before ethanol was ever put in fuel.


It can cause problems.  But I feel its an AWESOME excuse for the saw shop to blame the customers fuel as the root of all evils.


Makes a great sales pitch to sell a $20 pint of mixed gas in a tin can to goobers.   Fear mongering at its best, its the american marketing way!

Run ethanol fuel, dont store it in saw.  Run saw out, put on shelf.  Even the outboard fish killers know this one.


But hey if your an internet forester, then go get that miricle fuel thats $20 a pint.

Not sure where you're seeing $20 pints of mixed fuel, I can buy them anywhere for around $5

You honestly don't have a clue.

[Raider Bill]

What's a "Internet Forester"?

[Chop Shop]

What's a "Internet Forester"?

Folks that have logged more hours on the net discussing saws than actually USING them.

My dry attempt at sarcasm.  Huhu!

[7sleeper]

What's a "Internet Forester"?

Folks that have logged more hours on the net discussing saws than actually USING them.

My dry attempt at sarcasm.  Huhu!

I like it!

And I completly agree that the paranoia about ethanol is quite exaggerated. Yes old equipment might suffer prematurely and stores love it as an exuse to sell premix. And anyone who really believes that fuel containing ethanol will deteriorate in 30 days or 3 months is also living in a paranoid world. But that is just my opinion and I will not further comment on this topic.

@justallan1,

I would have asked him if they also have premix in their programm...

7

[Andyshine77]

Not paranoid sir, just educated by information and experience. Just those two little things. I don't need to believe anything I've seen and experienced the issues regularly. We could get into vapor pressure issues with ethanol next if you'd like. How about the fact ethanol has less energy than petroleum. But that stuff is obviously too technical for this crowd. You guys must grow corn.lol

Andre.

[goose63]

I have had saw gas with ethanol sit for a year found it under the bench thought ied give it a try put it in the saw and it ran just fine

[Andyshine77]

I have had saw gas with ethanol sit for a year found it under the bench thought ied give it a try put it in the saw and it ran just fine

I have no doubt you're telling the truth. Now go cut a few hours and report back. Nothing worse than the smell of bad fuel in the morning.The octane number will be way too low at a year old.

[ZeroJunk]

I have had saw gas with ethanol sit for a year found it under the bench thought ied give it a try put it in the saw and it ran just fine

I have some that had been in a Super A for 5 years and it still ran fine. I did drain it out and put some fresh in thinking five years was long enough .

The biggest reason I am a little skeptical about some of the failures blamed on ethanol is that it never seems to happen to my personal stuff. I have three Lawn Boy 2 cycles, and a Robin weedeater that I have had for 25 years and I have never even drained the gas out over the winter. Same with a couple of 90's model  Yamaha WaveRunners although I did rebuild the carbs on those after 20 years. I think there is some cockpit error going on besides ethanol in some cases.

[goose63]

That was 4or5 years ago burnt up the gallon saw ran fine dont rember the smell now but at my age i forgot what i had for breakfest

[goose63]

My weed eater and rideing mower i put seafome for the winter if the saws and mill set for a week or two thy get seafome

[Al_Smith]

Again and again there's not one thing you can do about high tech moonshine in the gasoline .Face facts we're stuck with it .Some go off on a tangent and run race gas,aviation fuel and so called pure gas .Do they run any better,I kind of doubt it but it's something to talk about other than politics and who won the ballgame I suppose .

I personally think corn would be better served to make cattle feed and whiskey than engine fuel .Besides if they were serious about it they'd use cane or sugar beets

[ZeroJunk]

It started when the EPA started requiring an oxygenator in gasoline and MTBE started showing up in ground water. It probably isn't even a net benefit to the environment when you consider marginal land washed away in the mad expansion of corn and the zillion tons of fertilizer and chemicals. Add to that the reduced gas mileage and expensive auto fuel system repairs.

[John Mc]

I do agree that ethanol has become a convenient excuse for problems.  That said, E10 IS a less stable fuel than non-ethanol gas.  It's less tolerant of being stored improperly or for too long.  If you store it properly. use it up quickly, don't leave it in your machine's tanks, etc. you'll probably have good luck with it (particularly if you've already replaced older fuel lines).

If you don't use your saw all that often, your fuel sits for extended periods (especially in containers that don't seal all that well) and/or have developed some bad habits over the years, you are more likely to have problems.  Is it the cause of all you r problems? No.  Most likely the the operator is the real cause of the problems... they were just more able to get away with bad habits with the old gas formulations.