What is "select cutting"?

[Piston]

I used to hear of the term "select cutting" as a good thing, as in, if a logger were to "select cut" your property, it leaves it better off.  In contrast, I always heard that "clear cutting" is a bad thing, that it "ruins" the forest. 

I've read a bit in the past about people referring to "select cutting" as a bad thing, which can make sense considering that you may only be taking the "good" trees and leaving the bad.  Eventually, all that will be left is bad trees.

So what exactly IS "select cutting"?  And, is it good/bad?  I suppose like anything, it probably just "depends"? 

I'd like to improve my property for wildlife, thin the woods by taking and using firewood, and if possible, leave the woods in better shape and encourage the "crop trees" to grow better, quicker, and healthier. 

[bill m]

"Select cutting" can be a vague term and can mean different things to different people. One thing for certain is that not everything is getting cut ( as in a clear cut ). It could also be a shelterwood cut, seed tree cut, or salvage cut. In a select cut it could be a high grade cut (bad), diameter limit cut (bad), commercial thin (good) or non-commercial thin (also good ). The decision on what to cut in a "select cut" should be made by or under the guidance of someone who knows how to grow trees ( like a collage educated forester ). Sometimes taking out to many of the lower grade trees can lead to epicormic branching on the good trees you are trying to grow. This will lower the value of the logs in a future harvest. 

[ga jones]

College educated doesn't make u a good forest steward. Reputation past practice and results do.

[Maine logger88]

College educated doesn't make u a good forest steward. Reputation past practice and results do.

X2

[Woodboogah]

agreed

[Southside]

College educated doesn't make u a good forest steward. Reputation past practice and results do.

X 2 ga jones, that stuck with me as well.  I have seen quite a few "college educated" folks who don't know a thing, all they could do was recite what they memorized from books.  I'll take the 60 year old guy with a high school diploma who has been doing the job for 40+ years over the 25 year old PHD any day, the former has been paying for his meals with his results for a long time while the latter has yet to begin making his loan payments.

Now that the rant is out of the way, to answer the OP's question, a select cut can mean anything you want it to.  Depends on the goals of the landowner.  Basically you determine your goal, make a plan on what to harvest - ie - species, size, etc and at times mark the trees to be harvested or work with the logger to keep the track on plan.  It depends on what you have for trees there now, the condition and age they are in, your financial needs, etc.

The lot I am on now has not been cut on for anywhere from 50 to 150 years, its a really nice piece.  I am creating a grazing savanah or silvopasture on it.  Almost none of the oak and hickory is being cut unless it is unhealthy - you should see some of the red oak that is being left behind.  30" DBH and not a limb for 30'.  I measured one at 48" DBH the other day with a massive crown.  Leaving a younger stand of mixed species as well so the tract is not single age. 

I looked at a lot earlier in the summer just down the road a piece that is not quite as old but still nice mixed wood.  The college educated, professional forester who advised the owner told them it was all mature and their best bet would be to clear cut the entire lot and re-plant it to pine as it was "time".  I told the owner right now pine logs are selling for an average of $200 / MBF delivered to the mill and $20 for pulp, where mixed hardwood brings $300 and $35 respectively, poplar can go up to $675, oak to $1050, looking ahead I don't think its best to have your entire wood lot growing in a single species for both forest health or financial security, but then again I don't have a college degree of any type. 

[Piston]

Bill and Southside Logger, thanks for the relevant posts. 

So as far as a select cut, it can be either good or bad, depending on who is doing the cutting and what they are leaving, for what reason.  What is the difference between a precommercial thinning, and a non precommercial thinning? Is it just the fact that you don't plan to market the timber later on?

I think what I am going to want to do, is a non commercial thinning (based on my assumption).  I basically want to thin out the woods to collect firewood and also make the land better for firewood and recreation. 

I believe I'd end up doing some selective cutting, and also some small clear cuts of less than a couple acres.  I really don't know.  I am going to be meeting with a forester in a couple weeks and wanted to clear up my uncertainty of what a select cut even is. 

[CCC4]

 

Select cut is so vague, it might just be easiest to think of it as you cut what they select. Select cuts vary from species to species. I am on a FS block right now with 5 units of timber to cut. The first one was typical pine thinning, I was cutting marked timber and forked pine, codominates, and a 40% cut on ripe seed trees were targeted. The 2nd unit...which I am cutting now is a wild set mixed of pine and hardwood. Sweet gum is targeted heavy like 90%, 85% mature Red oaks, 80% of the Ash (all stages), 85% of the pine (all stages). So just in those 2 examples there are HUGE differences.

I must include though the marking of Unit #2 is some of the poorest planning I have ever been involved with. Poor marking and absolutely erratic marking. I have skid roads over 50 ft. wide now and there are openings up to a 1/2 acre just here and there. Then parts weren's marked at all, then all of a sudden every fricken pine is marked. My project manager and I went through the unit the other day and he couldn't believe it. He told me to be darn sure to leave high enough stumps to show paint...he says somebodies gonna be in trouble over this cut. I am obligated to cut ALL marked timber, so I am safe....but the marking crew is gonna be getting a big talking to by the higher administration.

[thenorthman]

Select cut, in the basic sense is just taking a "few" trees.  The upsides are you get better forest for your piece of land, whatever reasons you may have, be it wildlife, "parking it out", or making a healthier forest. 

The down side of "select" cutting is often called high grading, the loggers go in with little or no direction, and only take the best timber, leaving the junk, and worthless stuff behind, some folks want this.  Usually whats left is a pile of broken up snags, half dead twigs, and other low market timber, pine, cottonwood etc.

Clear cutting well, go in level everthing, and remove anything worth the effort to move it.  Unfortunately clear cutting has gotten a bad name, mostly from the bunny huggers... while if done improperly you can get massive erosion, and if not replanted and managed you get a bunch of scruby trees and dense brush.

The upside to a managed clear cut, is a restart, clear cuts mimic fire, and let us lowly humans pic what kind of forest we would like to see there.  Out east it seems planting to pine is the way to go, here in the PNW its Doug Fir, or Hemlock.  Also please note, that for a good thick stand of Doug Fir you pretty much have to scalp it, the seedlings don't much like shade, hemlocks on the other hand like shade, but they also like to grow real thick and lean on each other until big enough to stand on their own, hence a precommercial thin, or a commercial thin, followed generally by a clear cut and a replant to Fir, or even back to more hemlock.  Any way, the point of this diatribe is that clear cuts are often times a good thing, even if misunderstood. 


The thing to take away from this is of some logger comes in and says he wants to "make a selective cut" on your dirt, keep a tight leash on him, make sure to go through and mark everything, and have a plan and stick to the plan (maybe even call a forester)

[Ianab]

What is the difference between a precommercial thinning, and a non precommercial thinning?

It's about what happens to the trees that you do cut while thinning. An early thinning may just be left to rot as the trees are too small to market. That's how pine is usually managed here. Pulp or post logs are not worth the cost and hassle of extracting them.

Now under other regimes you may thin and commercially harvest part of the crop, before the trees are mature. You don't get full value for the smaller logs, but you get something, and create space for the rest of the trees to mature.

In a mixed age forest it's not usually called that. You might have a "selective harvest" which thins the stands and smaller logs do get sold. Or if they aren't sold, you call it Timber Stand Improvement. (TSI)

Selective Cutting really just means that only some of the trees are cut, and some are left. Whether this is a good thing, or a bad thing, depends on who is doing the selecting.

Like the others suggest, there may also be valid reasons for doing clear cuts, of various sizes. Some species don't regrow without full sunshine, or a forest is just such a mess of low grade junk that you are best to level it and start again.

Ian

[GlennCz]

These are strange questions considering the OP's 1600 posts and the extensive woodlot/harvesting experience found in those posts. 

[terry f]

    Piston, I think what you are doing is what I'm trying to do. I'd call it more of a timber stand improvement, select cut seems to be more of a logging term.

[Texas Ranger]

A select cut is one where timber is marked to improve the stand, as well as to generate income.  It is a management process, like any other.

One thing is to ALWAYS have a marked selective cut, by a professional, not to be left to the tender mercies of a logger.  There are other methods of improving a stand, depending on species, stand composition, and end goals.

Important to have an end goal in mind, a slip up now can greatly reduce future income.

[treeslayer2003]

not all loggers are greedy brutes with chainsaws.............some loggers harvest with future harvests in mind.
to that end there is nothing wrong with a diameter cut, if its done right. also every stand is different.

i agree with the guys leaning toward expieriance, better to have seen what works and what dosent.

[Texas Ranger]

50 years of experience tells me most loggers will high grade if given the opportunity.

[luvmexfood]

It might be safe to assume that select cutting means different things to different people and in different regions.

For some people it might mean they select a tree and then cut it. Others might be cutting to improve the overall quality of the stand.

Sort of like when you buy garden chemicals. You will find some ready to use which is self explanatory. Then you will see some marked concentrate. Take a quart of one company and say for example it makes 20 gallons. A quart from another manufacture may only make 15 gallons but is a dollar cheaper.

[Southside]

50 years of experience tells me most loggers will high grade if given the opportunity.

Maybe you need to broaden the group of loggers you work with.  Loggers are just like any other group of people, some are good, and some are bad, and just like everybody else they often associate with like minded folks.  I know of foresters who have a personal agenda that guide their management practices, and I know of other loggers who leave a job so that it does not appear any logging has been done on the lot. 

[CuddleBugFirewood]

In my experience, many (not all) landowners want to do what is long term forestry correct only as long as they don't have to put much or any money into it.  I certainly think both parties are at fault.  Economics will hopefully make long term management of the oak/hickory forest more appealing. 

Invasive specie control and Tsi are good examples.  As a logger I cannot do this for you.  You hired me to cut merchantable timber.  I can't make money for the landowner, much less myself cutting un merchantable  timber in a Tsi or invasive specie control application.  As a landowner, an investment will need to be made Which means dollars out of pocket. 

[Piston]

Like the others suggest, there may also be valid reasons for doing clear cuts, of various sizes. Some species don't regrow without full sunshine, or a forest is just such a mess of low grade junk that you are best to level it and start again.

Ian

This is sort of what I'm worried about.  I know the land was logged back in the '70's, and the loggers came in and supposedly took everything and made such a mess, all while leaving my grandfather without ever giving him a dime for his logs.  It has never been managed since, so I'm concerned that it's been so long, that thinning may not really help all that much, and that the forester may recommend clear cutting a good portion of it to start over, which I really don't want to do.  However, my main focus isn't to make money off the logs, so I suppose I don't have to do that if it's what's recommended, but regardless, I'd like it to be as healthy as possible. 

I really enjoy "hobby logging" that I do, and using my equipment to do it, even though I make no money off it.  The thing I don't want to do is just start cutting whatever darned tree I come across, and do more damage than good. 

[Piston]

These are strange questions considering the OP's 1600 posts and the extensive woodlot/harvesting experience found in those posts.

Can you explain?  Why are these strange questions?  Do you just ASSUME that because I have a fair amount of posts, and I've cut and milled my trees/logs before, I have all the knowledge I need/want regarding different forestry practices?

Post count doesn't indicate anything, neither does the ability to use a chainsaw.  I am reaching out to gain more knowledge on something I know a "little" bit about.  I've learned a LOT over the years, and that "lot" has become just enough to know that there is a REALLY lot that I don't know.  A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[Ianab]

It has never been managed since, so I'm concerned that it's been so long, that thinning may not really help all that much, and that the forester may recommend clear cutting a good portion of it to start over, which I really don't want to do.

Doing nothing can be classed as a valid management technique   ;) A forest still grows, it just may not be the exact forest you want, but it will be a forest. Management comes in when people have different wants. Increased profit, aesthetics, wildlife, conservation etc. How they manage things will be different depending on those wants.

Now if you get a professional forester to look over your forest and give you some advice, this doesn't mean you HAVE to follow it, and the advice will be different depending on what your aim is. He can explain the effects of doing different things. Thinning or doing a selective cut, vs clear cutting small areas at a time have a different long term effect on the forest. May or may not be the effect you want. Selective cuts, you get regeneration of species A, B and C. Do a small clear cut, and species X,Y and Z are going to come back.

Now even as a amateur you can still look at your forest and consider the condition of the trees. Are they species you want, healthy and growing with a good form to yield good saw logs? If so, then you don't have a serious problem. But what's the best way to manage them into the future? Should you be doing selective harvesting of junk, overcrowded or mature trees? And getting a shade tolerant regeneration starting to happen?

Or should you be planning small "clear cuts", of just a couple of acres at a time, to allow the regeneration of full sunlight species? Locally that's known as a copse cut, where you go in and just clear cut a small area, maybe only 10% of the total.  The 'forest" still looks like a forest because 90% of the trees are left. The wildlife and seed trees are still there etc, so it quickly regenerates. Come back in 5 or 10 years and cut a different section. By the time you get though the whole forest, the first section is ready to harvest again.

Depends on what sort of forest you have, and what you want in the future.

Ian

[thecfarm]

I really did know what select meant either. I had an idea,but nothing I wanted to say"I know what that is"
Piston is trying to do the same as I and many others on here are doing. Just taking care of our forest the best we know how, Be it right or wrong.  ;D But we sure are having a good time doing it too. 

[Southside]

Just curious, how big of a lot are we talking about?  Mother nature has a great way of using time to heal wounds, just look at Chernobyl these days, the city looks more like a forest than a city.  I would think that growing for almost 40 years even if the land was a complete mess would be in decent shape as I would guess it would have at least second generation varieties growing on it by now. 

[Piston]

It's a 50 acre lot, so certainly not a huge amount of land like many of you are used to, but a big enough area for me to feel a little overwhelmed  ;D

It's not a "mess" at all. I probably make it sound worse than it is. There is a small area of nothing but white pine, surrounded by old stone walls, and the rest is mixed hardwoods.

The land is on the north side of a small mountain with gently sloping areas giving way to a few steeper sections (nothing I can't drive my tractor up, but I wouldn't go across some of them) and finally towards the bottom it levels off and gives way to a wetland area (although not technically wetland).
Then there is a small ridge of gravel type soil, and on the other side of the ridge is a stream which is my border. In the lowland area there is a lot of evergreens (I don't actually remember what type of trees) but this is where I see a lot of deer and moose sign.

I've held off doing anything major to the property aside from a small clearing I made so far. As much as I just want to go in there and cut trees down and pull them out with my tractor, I haven't because I know I can do a lot more damage than good in a quick amount of time. Also, I know that not much will change in a 1 or 2 year time frame if I do absolutely nothing to the land.

I actually started a similar thread on having a forester come to my land quite a few years back. He did come and help me out, but I didn't really know what questions to ask, and also where to go from there. He was a county forester who was helpful, but again, I didn't really know what I wanted out of my land so it was difficult for him to guide me in the right direction  :D

At least now I know what I want for the long term goal if my property.

[Jim_Rogers]

Piston:
What I think you may want to consider was mentioned before TSI. Timber stand improvement.
You review what you got and make selective cuts based on improving the timber stand.
You could take out dead, for firewood, diseased could be firewood depending on type. Deformed, for making a better looking and growing forest. And maybe even dominate, a large over shadowing tree that is crowding out younger smaller trees.
This is known as the "four Ds" Dead, deseased, deformed and dominate.

But every lot is different and all things need to be considered.

Jim Rogers
PS. I'd be happy to walk your lot with you anytime you're home.