What is "select cutting"?

[Southside]

Sounds like a nice piece of ground, and 50 AC is nothing to sneeze at.  I have cut on 2 AC camp lots for people in the past and just got a call for a 15 AC lot last week.  The stone walls say it was farm land at one time, may be something to keep in mind while you come up with the plan if you want any open areas on the lot.  What do you hope to do with the land?

[Piston]

Hey Jim,
I'd be interested in a walk in the woods sometime!  I'd also like you to check out the old barn up there anyways and see if it's worth restoring (as if I have time for that too!)  ;D

Sounds like a nice piece of ground, and 50 AC is nothing to sneeze at.  I have cut on 2 AC camp lots for people in the past and just got a call for a 15 AC lot last week.  The stone walls say it was farm land at one time, may be something to keep in mind while you come up with the plan if you want any open areas on the lot.  What do you hope to do with the land?

Definitely old farmland.  I read a book called "reading the forested landscape" by Tom Wessels (I could be slightly off with the name) and learned quite a bit from that book.  It talks a lot about how to determine the history of the land based on the landscape. 

There are a lot of stone walls.  There is one section we've always referred to as the "Bridle path" which is a path between two stone walls that goes from an old stone foundation (that used to be a barn which burned down in the early 1900's) back to a former pasture area.   I'd like to clear out that old pasture area and make it open field again.  I'd really like to improve the land for wildlife just to enjoy it with my family.  I hope to teach my kids all sorts of "woodsy" type things on the land as my two boys grow up.  I have always been an outdoorsman my whole life, never was one to watch t.v. but would rather be out in the woods.  I hope to teach them a lot of the same things I learned on the land.  So I really just want the land to be as nice, and diverse as possible.  I'd like some trails around the property to access different areas to harvest firewood, and sawlogs for my mill when I'm in need of lumber, I'd like to see more deer, moose, bear, and other wildlife.  I'd eventually like to build a cabin up there and have it as a little getaway.

So My plan to tell the forester, is really a mix of uses and goals, but priority being improve wildlife habitat, improve overall health of the forest, and manage the timber in such a way that I can continue to enjoy my "hobby logging" interests.  I do want some small fields for the deer and also the scenic aspect of it as well. 

[GlennCz]

Can you explain?  Why are these strange questions?  Do you just ASSUME that because I have a fair amount of posts, and I've cut and milled my trees/logs before, I have all the knowledge I need/want regarding different forestry practices?

You obviously have good intentions and respect the responsibility of managing your property.  You've made 1600 posts and have done extensive work on your property.  It is strange, you ask about selective cutting like you are on post #1 or 2. 
Selective cutting means you select a tree and cut it down! <g>.  Hah.  It means different things to different people.  It could mean selecting every tree in the forest where the timber value is greater than the cost to cut it down, or it could mean selecting trees to harvest with the concept of obtaining long term financial gain and beauty of the forest. 

It is not easy.  In 1997 I left many black cherry trees with the thought of allowing them to grow to a greater financial value.  Compared to 1997 prices, the price sheets show a price drop of 30-50% for the top grade logs. 
I have nice looking apparently healthy trees that we cut down and they have a big hole in the bottom log or are starting to rot.  It's been a learning experience for me but often times I am not sure what I've learned. 

I think improving the forest for wildlife is spinning your wheels, unless you are planting something to eat.  It's a feel good term and concept. 

[bill m]

Let me clarify something. I never said or even implied that being a collage educated forester made you a good steward of the forest. What it means is that he ( or she ) will know soils, tree biology and whatever else it takes to grow good timber if that is your goal. There are far more good foresters with a collage education then there are who have learned just by going out and throwing paint on some trees even if they have been doing it for the past 30+ years.

[Peter Drouin]

If it was my land I would first cut my road from one end to the other end. Go with the lay of the land. You might find the old road that's there. Make it wide , like 16 to 20 '.
Now you can see what you have. Start with cutting out the junk along the road, the easy stuff. Have a landing or two to cut up the wood. Be saw logs or firewood. Take your time and remember God made the land and trees and it will do just find without your help, :D :D
Good luck.

[treeslayer2003]

piston, a book that makes sense to me is a primer to forestry by Gifford Pinchot..........i may have the spelling wrong. it talks about stair stepping the age and variety of timber. it may not be popular with todays commercial forestry approach, but it always seemed right to me.

if your lot was cut 40 years ago, i doubt you have any big problems. any leave trees from back then my be ready however.....depends on how it was cut. you are much farther north than i so probobly different types of timber but a few pics of what you think should go may get you some more input here.
i would take Jim up on his offer as well........two heads are always better than one. at least he could give you some ideas.

[barbender]

It all depends on your end goals- if it is primarily wildlife habitat you will likely want a lot of small "clearcuts" or wildlife openings. I would agree that a college educated forester should have extensive knowledge of soil types and what trees are going to do best on yours. Talk to your state natural resources department, they may have a forester available or they can give you references for a good one. I am a logger, I would agree with someone else's comment that loggers will tend to highgrade if you give them free reign. They are there to make money, if they're not they won't be in business for long. I you have a contract that says we are going to take such and such trees only, and make it worth their while, you will have a better outcome.

[Gary_C]

Here is an old topic I posted over a year ago about "select cutting." That one is called  Logger Select

When you or anyone else is "selecting" trees to cut, it's not so much the ability to see which trees to be cut, it's the ability to see what will be left of your woods that is important.  Unfortunately training and experience does not always give a person the ability to see what will be left after logging is done.

And that's where a logger has some advantage when they care about their work. A good logger is able to see as he goes what he is leaving behind and make corrections on the fly. The stand used as an example in the MN DNR training session did not achieve the stated objectives as originally planned so they revised the contract and let the logger do the selecting on the fly and it worked.

But I will not tell you there's not some friction between loggers and foresters over logger select.

[Holmes]

 I like Peter Drouin's idea.  I am up to the 12 foot width on the old cart path but only for a few thousand feet , still a way to go. Being able to walk on the trail is quite enjoyable. I think your question is an excellent one. Now about the logging winch, I missed out on it too. :'( 

[mesquite buckeye]

An old forester once told me, "The best way to plant a forest is with an axe."

Good advice. This reiterates the point about what you leave being the future. When you start to see the intolerant trees disappearing from a stand, it is time for a clearcut. That does not have to mean clearcut everything everywhere. A clearcut can be as small as an acre, or as big as you want. There are also problems associated with making a clearcut too small.

Any forester that tells me the solution to my forest's problems is to clearcut all of it and plant a monoculture is a forester I say bye bye to.

Just sayin'. ;D

You are young enough to watch a forest grow and learn from it. Bring your kids along on the adventure and they will learn too.

You will see things that work and things that don't if you pay attention...... 8)

[treeslayer2003]

Here is an old topic I posted over a year ago about "select cutting." That one is called  Logger Select

When you or anyone else is "selecting" trees to cut, it's not so much the ability to see which trees to be cut, it's the ability to see what will be left of your woods that is important.  Unfortunately training and experience does not always give a person the ability to see what will be left after logging is done.

And that's where a logger has some advantage when they care about their work. A good logger is able to see as he goes what he is leaving behind and make corrections on the fly. The stand used as an example in the MN DNR training session did not achieve the stated objectives as originally planned so they revised the contract and let the logger do the selecting on the fly and it worked.

But I will not tell you there's not some friction between loggers and foresters over logger select.

good post...........now that my son is in the woods, i understand my father's frustration at me when i started. seems like it takes a while to realize what your doing to the young trees as you work. it can't just be about the money or how fast you can get a load out. also helps when you go back every 10-15 years to see what youve done and how it worked.

[beenthere]

Bring you kids along on the adventure and they will learn too.

But be careful with that.. :D .  Spent a Sat. with my boys when they were around 4 or 5, planting pine tree seedlings, like about 300 of them.

Following fall, met the boys coming out of the woods with their little red wagon piled high with pine tree seedlings. Very proud of their "logging" they were, and they were "selective".
Just a bit shy of years for them to grow up, so am guessing they were not going to wait.  ;D 
They were just following what Dad was doing.. sort of.

[Piston]

Thanks to all for the additional replies. I currently have a "small" road cut in, but my first mistake was not making it straight enough to skid logs out, I've learned already :)

I appreciate the extra thoughts and advice on select cutting vs clear cutting. I'll try to "envision" what the forest will look like after I thin out certain trees prior to choosing which to cut. It seems like I'm pretty safe taking out any trees with a lot of crook, forks, or any other defect that would prevent it from growing nicely.

As far as wildlife, I understand that a few small clearings while leaving nut producing trees would be a good idea.

I'm going to be meeting the forester on my property on the 19th of this month and am really looking forward to it. I'll revisit this thread and read it over again to jog my memory before he comes.

Also, if anyone has any other specific things I should ask the forester then feel free to mention it to me.

I'll post some pictures of what I'm dealing with in the next post.

[BaldBob]

It sounds like you are on the right track. One point though; just saying you want to improve the tract for wildlife, without specifying which suite of wildlife, isn't very helpful to the forester in providing you with the best advice to meet your objectives. What are the best conditions for deer, and grouse may not be best for turkeys, or bear or song birds, etc. You may in fact not want what is best for any particular suite of wildlife, but rather an optimization of conditions for a broad array of wildlife species. Also with only 50 acres it is probably not realistic to try to have all things for many species for all times of the year. It may be that some key habitat elements for species of interest to you are in short supply in your general area, and that you can manage to provide those particular attributes. The clearer you are in specifically defining your goals to your forester, the better job he can do in providing you with sound advice toward reaching your goals.

[Ron Scott]

There are two basic silvicultural systems used for management and regeneration of forest stands, "even-aged and uneven-aged" (also called all-aged). Under the "even-aged system", a stand consist of overstory trees of the same, or nearly the same age. The "uneven-aged' system, by contrast, is applied in stands that contain trees of three or more different age classes. The choice depends on the ecology of the stand, its current structure, and the forest owner's objectives.

Clearcutting is the most common even-aged regeneration method; it is most often used to manage sun-loving, shade intolerant species, although under the right circumstance it will successfully regenerate almost any type of forest community.

The uneven-aged system uses the selection method of harvesting, which favors tree species that thrive in moderate to moderately-heavy shade. It is the most complex system often used for managing quality hardwoods and is best implemented by a professional forester.

[Piston]

Here are some photos of my property.  I'll try to post them in some sort of organized manner, going from front (from the road which is to the west) to the back (to the east which is bordered by a stream) there is nothing but woods towards the back of the property for a few miles.

I have so many pictures that it's hard for me to choose which to post. I'll post 10 or 15 of them.



 
This is the old foundation from the barn that burned down.  If you look just to the left of the photo (not visible on the pic) is where the old "bridle path" starts. This is the path the cows would follow to go out to pasture.



 

Here is the bridle path (I really don't know why we call it that  :D). You can tell that the land slopes from right to left. I'd like to clear the trees along the right stone wall, but I'm concerned that clearing those trees and regrading the path level would possibly cause instability to the stone wall on the right?



 
Here is part of the logging trail I made, looking down towards the bridle path, it iss (sort of) a continuation of the bridle path but doesn't actually join up with it.



 
Further down the road, but as if I was backing up with the tractor.



 


  

 
Aside from the logging trail, these two pictures above are very typical of what this section of the property looks like. I'm told this used to be blueberry fields, and there are a lot of remaining blueberry bushes in scattered area that still get some sun.  This area is mostly white pine and encompasses around 4-5 acres.



 
This photo above is the clearing that I made. A couple years ago my wife and I were planning on moving up here permanently, and this is where I was planning on building our home. Two kids later, plans have changed, and we are no longer planning to move.....for now.   ;D


Here are a couple more photos of the cleared area. I estimate it to be around 1 acre.




  

 


This is at the top of the clearing. The stone wall is one of my boundaries.




 
At the bottom of the clearing (which is also towards the end of the bridle path) it gives way to mostly hardwoods.  In the spring and summer, it's difficult to see very far.





Moving to the east, further back into the property, it slopes downhill and goes from mixed hardwoods to mostly evergreens of some sort.


  

  

 

I believe these are blueberry bushes (the pic was taken in the beginning of winter) but perhaps one of you could confirm that?
 

  

  

 

Getting closer to the back of the property, it levels out somewhat, and gives way to a slightly more "wet" area. There are a lot of tall but narrow trees in this wet area, they are very closely spaced.


 

Then there is a small brook, after the brook it rises up to a ridge line (or at least that's what I call it). I think this "ridge line" used to be a logging trail from a few decades ago. I cleared it out some and widened it enough for a tractor to squeeze through.


  

  

  

 

On the other side of the ridge, it turns back into a wet area which opens up as actual wetland. There is a larger brook going through the middle of the wetland, which is my property line. I'm not sure if I have a picture of the more open areas. This is one I have where I see a lot of moose sign.


 


Hopefully these pics can convey a little more about my property than I've been able to in words  :D
I should probably know more about my little slice of the forest than I do, but I'm getting there little by little.  ;)

(Let's hope this post works. I've been typing this from my iPad and I'm going to throw it overboard if this doesn't post!)

[Piston]

Here are just a few more photos. This one is right at the end of the bridle path, just downhill from the clearing, but before the hardwoods start. There is a distinct difference in the tree types, almost all pines on the west side of the stone wall, and only 20' away on the east side, are where all the hardwoods start. You can certainly tell this used to be farm land.


 




 
Here is what a few acres looks like back closer to the road. I'm guessing this area was clear cut back when it was logged.



 

[thecfarm]

Nice pictures there and nice looking land. A few of your pictures looked like the grown up pasture here. I have cleared off some of it.I leave the oak for the wildlife. All the other trees are used for firewood.
I am no expect on what trees to cut,select to cut is what I should say. But I can say something needs to be done. But you are like me,one guy,one chainsaw and one tractor. With me,I cut it,I bring it out for firewood,if there is some size to it. A project that I will never see done,but I enjoy what I do get done.  ;D It's hard to work on land that is not right out back too. I worked here for years and than I moved here. It felt real odd just to step outside and work on something for an hour.

[treeslayer2003]

mostly looks like young forest to me. find out what trees do well and are desireable in your area and favor them. remove the trash for fire wood. thats all i'd do for now. that and any more clearing ya want. i don't think you'll ruin any thing as it looks like its just starting out from once cleared land.

[mesquite buckeye]

+1 ;D

[Southside]

Nice looking piece of land for sure.  The bushes look like they could be low bush berries, hard to tell in the winter like that.  From what you have done so far it looks like you have a good handle on what to do, endless possibilities. 

[terry f]

   Beautiful, you may have said, but how far away do you live from it? Clear cut for me is two four letter words, its the worst looking piece in your photos. Thin, thin, and then thin some more.

[Piston]

Thanks for the comments guys. I live 120 miles away. I'm up there pretty often really, but most of the time it's visiting family or taking the boat out on Lake Winnipesaukee, so I don't always get much time to play in the woods. 

[John Mc]

Piston -

If you want to learn a bit about forestry and wildlife, contact someone from the Massachusetts Keystone Project (formerly MA Coverts Program).

I went through the VT Coverts program 12 years ago - 3 days of training and full of information. You may or may not want to go through the training yourself, but a good place to start is by contacting a "Keystone Cooperator" in your area

[Piston]

Piston -

If you want to learn a bit about forestry and wildlife, contact someone from the Massachusetts Keystone Project (formerly MA Coverts Program).

I went through the VT Coverts program 12 years ago - 3 days of training and full of information. You may or may not want to go through the training yourself, but a good place to start is by contacting a "Keystone Cooperator" in your area

John,
That looks really interesting.  I've never heard of the Keystone Project before.  I'd be interested in doing the training next year.  What did you do for your "project" after the training?  Or did they have that 12 years ago? 


(Edit: I was just looking at the resources tab, and found I've already read 2 of the 3 books https://masskeystone.net/resources  For as much as I've read, I should know a lot more than I do  :D)