Rot in Red Oak

[BEEMERS]

I had two veneer/grade northern red oaks tip over at the stump this spring.both were very healthy looking trees and both were growing with another oak of same age,size,not sharing the stump but the stumps were grown together to a point about 2-2 and a half feet up....In both cases one tree tipped over leaving a big hole next to its partner.I harvested both the tipped over trees and both their partners as I expected the exposed stump would be susceptible to disease and tipping over itself.
In all 4 trees they looked on the outside to be perfect,,,by the way this property hasn't been touched since the late 1800,s.....In one butt there was a little rot..lost about a foot and its partner I lost about 2 feet. In the other pair I lost about 6 feet in both.Same soil,clay ground below,top couple feet is sandy, water table probably at 6 feet plus....center of lower peninsula...Also where trees grew together they could have held rainwater but rot was more centered..also in the stump..not against where the water..if any would have laid.
My question which Im posting here because I want the Loggers opinions as well as the foresters is this...Is the rot more typical in oaks like these growing together? If so,should I be targeting my red oaks ,of which I have hundreds that are growing 2 or more from the same or adjoining stumps?
OR is this rot something that Is NOT more often found in trees growing together as opposed to singles..and its more of an indicator that all my oaks of same age are going this route...and I should look at harvesting the older trees in general?
I don't want to do this but I don't want to loose the entire butt log if I wait.Id be happier harvesting one or both of the doubles. Also the trees I cut were 24-30 diameter on the Butt log.Im guessing they were in the understory when the white pine was cut here about 1880's and survived the fires during/after that,most likely after resprouting from the stump collar after parent tree died...hence the reason I have so many2,3,4 on one stump.other Red oaks in stand are Veneer/Grade and 20-36 inch at breast height.Thats why this butt rot bothers me so much.
Thanks for any help in advance,sorry for the rambling post,I just want to present all the info to get the best answer.

[beenthere]

Beemers
Some pics of the oaks will help. Get a few close-up of the bark near the stump for any evidence of cracks, or bleeding that might indicate internal decay. Any decay in the centers will toss them out of the veneer grade.

[BEEMERS]

I recently walked this with a veneer buyer..there are some with cracks and slight bleeding..there are some with  the outward signs that you are reffering to..but they are the big singles..32-36 inches and definitely downhill from veneer or grade...but they are also able to produce a tremendous amount of board footage to make up for a lot of the loss...that's the buyers statement. However.these are also the ones standing alone so big in the top nothing could grow close,and when it comes down its going to take a half acre of small maples with it.
I will try to get photos but really, these trees that fell and most of the others are really perfect all the way down from outward appearance.No signs..and they weren't hollow...just heading there..eventually,from what I saw inside.Also I took the logs in to the mill..they said A few are going for veneer and some grade.After of course I blocked off the first  2 - 6 feet.
The ones I took didn't widen much or bulge at the ground,no splits not bleeding.I know exactly what you are looking for as the veneer buyer pointed out exactly that in a few..and now Im seeing that in the ones that aren't like that....
Man,if I get a phone call from him tomorrow wanting to know if Im ready...I know hes a FF member or has a friend who is!!
Thanks for your reply beenthere.

[Phorester]

My two cents; in general;
Rot will be more prevalent in multi-trunked trees than singles.  But soil type and age of the trees will come into play too. 

Some soils are too poor for growing healthy hardwood trees, and trees on those soils will be shorter than average for the species and begin to get hollow earlier in their life.

Also older trees are more susceptible to rot.  Not taking about size, talking about age.  A 12" dbh tree that's 50 years old can be punky or hollow in the center, a 12" dbh tree that's 25 years old can be solid. This will be mostly soil related, but also related to how crowded the trees are.  Lots of growing space for a tree equals fast growth, small growing space equals slow growth.

[BEEMERS]

Thanks Phorester, Im hoping to hear its more a cause of the growing together,believe me.
These are not multi trunk trees..They are indivduals with stumps that grew..well didn't grow together really...as when one tree tipped over it took its entire stump leaving the other and its stump intact..separate trees.. both stumps and trunk sections were flat against each other I guess only the bark actually fused.
My theory is an oak killed by fire..resprout a hundred sprouts from the root collar..after 130 years the 2 or 3 dominants are separate but grown together.

[Jeff]

Look what I found on my phone! 

 

[Jeff]

Here are a couple pictures of Alissa the Axe woman with some Beemer White Pine in the same redoak woodlot.



  

 

[Phorester]

Thanks Phorester, Im hoping to hear its more a cause of the growing together,believe me.
These are not multi trunk trees..They are indivduals with stumps that grew..well didn't grow together really...as when one tree tipped over it took its entire stump leaving the other and its stump intact..separate trees.. both stumps and trunk sections were flat against each other I guess only the bark actually fused.
My theory is an oak killed by fire..resprout a hundred sprouts from the root collar..after 130 years the 2 or 3 dominants are separate but grown together.

We sure could use pictures then. Or does what you're describing look like the pictures from Jeff?

[beenthere]

Not hard to tell which looks best in those pics Jeff. But the oaks are impressive too..  ;D

[CCC4]

I am going to say that it has to do with the soil more than anything. I cut a lot of codoms and rarely have them show rot, even in areas where I am running into a lot of rot. I have cut many mature old age red and white oaks that are sound as a dollar, so I dnt think age is a factor. I cut a FS cut last year where they had targeted 85% of the mature red oaks...zero rot on the entire set. Oddly enough...all the sweet gum smalls grown in clusters while the older larger sweet gum growing by themselves would all be solid.

I'm sticking to soil type...jus seen it waaay too much.

[CCC4]

Meant to say the small sweet gum grown in clusters were all rotten...everyone of them. The larger sweet gums grown by themselves were all solid.

[BEEMERS]

How the heck did he do that? Thoe are the exact same trees!!...they've been getting farther apart for a decade or more then one flopped.one on left.But you see how good the stump looks? and the rot wasn't were they were together....it was in center. The other two weren't connected in the middle..they were touching at about 6 inches..only.  In the pic from Jeff I bore cut that one  on the right off at about 3 and a half feet and still lost 6 feet of what was cut off So Im figuring I guess total at least an 8 foot log lost.
Whitr pines are on same ground/same soils.
I know the picture shows indication of rot in center where they were connected...but see how non indicative they are off a problem on the outside? That's what Im referring to.

[BEEMERS]

If soil type is the cause..Have these trees reached and are exceeding their life expectancy in this given soil type?
water table is not an issue in this stand...Also..have taken grade and veneer Big Tooth Aspen out from among these same trees...Im sure that contributed to the cause of these going over..I harvested the Aspen Last winter.The Aspen was very clear and only a few showed signs of rot.Very few at all but randomly here and there one would have a lot. One 24 incher four feet from a 26 incher...24 was veneer clear didn't evem trim anything off...the other...3-4 inches of good wood on the outside...again looked as good as the other...all black on inside I lost about 14 feet.

[jwilly3879]

When I run into rotten centers I will take an 8 or 10' log off then hope for some veneer in the next logs. I use to cut them back 16" at at time making firewood until it cleared up but I had a lot of pigs (my son's term) to deal with. I'd rather have an 8' stick on the landing than 6 16" pieces.

[CCC4]

Hardwoods pose a lot of questions for me, for instance...I have been in areas of heavy oak bore kills, the dead timber would always be solid while the perfectly healthy looking timber would always have to be butted off. It's crazy!

[so il logger]

Hardwoods pose a lot of questions for me, for instance...I have been in areas of heavy oak bore kills, the dead timber would always be solid while the perfectly healthy looking timber would always have to be butted off. It's crazy!

X2  :D

[Autocar]

I agree with CCC4 I believe it all comes down to soil type and how much livestock was in the woodlot. In my area most of the wood lots had sheep/cow and even hogs  in them years ago. When I was a young man there were feild fences around most of the woods but now there pretty much rotted away. I have areas I log in just dosen't grow any good red oak there cut with rot and blue crack. And other areas the bark is so shiney you can almost see your face in them and cut with beautiful color.

[Jeff]

When I saw those two trees I could see they had recent movement and figured they were going down. That's why I took that photo.

[mesquite buckeye]

Most of my red oaks eventually seem to get center rot coming up from the bottom. Ours seem to max out and die somewhere between 3-5' dbh. Lots of those really big ones have questionable centers. I seem to get more multitrunked individuals on my poorer spots in the woods. That whole area will be at least half doubles and those look to be growing slowly. :(