Flooring

[RacinRex]

I got most of the way through the pine and got my wave issues sorted out mostly and now I'm moving the mill home to take on some white oak that I want to saw for my flooring. My question is this:

1. What size should I rough saw to make nice 3 or 4 inch planks for the floor?

2.  What width will that reasonably require?

3. 4/4 is a good thickness for ending up with 3/4 on top of a radiant heated floor?

4. Should all stock be rough sawn the same width? I see that most floors are done with one width flooring but heard someone talking about random width. Any pictures out there of that?

Wow that was more than one question and will probably lead to even more.  :D must be my nature

Thanks, Jim

[Kirk_Allen]

First off, What solved the wave problems you were having?  Blades, guides, tension, etc?

1 & 2:
if I am looking for 3" flooring boards I would cut to 3 3/8 knowing I would be cutting the long boards down to 48" or less for flooring.  If you wanting to use longer floor boards you will want more width because of warpage during the drying.  

So, the question is, what will be the longest board you want for your flooring?

3:  I cut all my personal use lumber to 1 1/8" unless I KNOW its specific for flooring.  Then I cut it to 4/4 or 1"..............provided I am using 48" shorts.  If I need long planks I use 1 1/8" as my target to ensure any stress in the log doesn't bite me in the end by having a board that is to thin in the middle.  Cutting the log properly is key.

4:  That is the joy of doing it yourself!  It is much easier to cut it all the same width but in the end, this may change because you still have to cut to size, final edge the board, and tongue and groove them.  

I will try to get some pics of my floor in the house we are selling.  I will be up there this weekend.  I have random (2 1/2", 2 3/4", 3", 3 1/4") width but that is because it was all salvaged barn wood and supply was limited. Had I cut down to match the smallest width I would not have had enough to finish.  

Remember with random width you need enough of a given width to finish the run you started.  If I had to do it all over again I would prefer all standard width.
 

[RacinRex]

The waves came out when I got a new blade on there, set tension back to 1/2 inch deflection at the guide, started lubing and set the pitch to dead even. It was still starting to wave in the pine after about 600 bd ft. not terrible but a couple of times, is this normal?

on the hardwood flooring should I saw everything at 4/4  and 4" wide? that would make a nicely sized plank in the end, yes? longest I will need is 4' I'm not going to try to span the whole expance of the floor.

Thanks, Jim

[edsaws]

 Cutting the log properly is key.

What would be the proper way to cut the log? Plain or quarter sawn? I will be putting down some flooring myself in the future.  

[Norm]

Saw it to 4/4 which for me especially with white oak is 1 1/8th"s. I also saw it all out log length and then chop out the defects after drying, this gives me the random lengths that work best for flooring. As far as widths go I try to get the widest widths during q-sawing the log and then SLR it to the widths I'm after. I don't care for random width flooring because I have a hard time making it look right laying it. Here's a web site that shows it.

http://www.wideplankflooring.com/whiteoak.html

[IndyIan]

Hi Jim,
Sounds like a great project.  Not to be a stick in the mud but I've read that solid wood isn't recommended over radiant heat.  The rapid temperature changes can cause cupping and warpage.  Quarter sawing is can counter act this as well as narrower boards.  
How much heat are you pushing through the floor?  There are some practical limits.  I've got a chart from a website I can't find at the moment that shows your heat load per sq ft and what your floor covering is, and what your floor temp has to be to meet your heat load.  Basically concrete is a good radiator, carpet is bad, and wood is not too bad.  Its worth finding if you can to make sure your design will work or if you need other sources of heat for that room.

Ian
    

[woodmills1]

4 inch is pretty small sawmill stuff and unless the logs are real good they will be hard to deal with for flaws.  Follow norms suggestion and rip and cross cut for clears later.  There is no problem using more than one width for flooring, it lookks good too.  Just don't make the widths close to each other.

[Faron]

My experience has been grade sawing random widths and then making a multiple width floor is the most efficient way to go.  My favorite is 2 1\4, 3, and 4 inch combination. Usually I can make any board work out so I waste 3\4" or less . I cut most of my flooring material 1" , but 1 1\8 isn't a bad idea especially if quartersawing.  Getting a good straight edge prior to ripping is essential to making flooring that lays straight , at least with my setup.

[moosehunter]

Jim,
 I live about 15 miles from you (Newfield) and have an excellent video on band blades put out by a blade manufacturer. It is about two hours long and may the most boring thing I have ever seen, but.... it tought me about band blades and that was the point.
 You stated above that after 600 bf or so you started getting waves again. Sounds about right. That is when you should be sharpening the blade.
 If you would like to see this video, let me know, maybe we can work something out. I cannot outright loan it to you becouse it is not mine(I borrowed it). Maybe I can get  a copy made.
 Moosehunter

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

1. What size should I rough saw to make nice 3 or 4 inch planks for the floor?
 
2.  What width will that reasonably require?
 
3. 4/4 is a good thickness for ending up with 3/4 on top of a radiant heated floor?
 
4. Should all stock be rough sawn the same width? I see that most floors are done with one width flooring but heard someone talking about random width. Any pictures out there of that?

Comment for #1: If your logs are straight, with a finely-centered heart,  3/8 wider than you want.   If you quarter saw with a very sharp band mill, you can even cut down to 1" for thickness.    You will want to quarter saw, if you plan to go over radiant.   Even then, you should definitely plan your system so that the rooms with the oak are designed toward a gentle heat - less water temp. and more loops per area to be heated.
Comment for #2:  You must go for quarter sawn, due to the heating system.   Not rift sawn.   Maximum use of your wood would say,  "mix the widths."   Shrinkage cycles from spring to dead of winter would say, "don't get too wide with a radiant floor heat system, 'too wide' being 4-1/2 to 5" if true quarter-sawn."
Comment for #3:  If you are a patient sawyer, and love fresh sharp blades, 1".   Then you cull down to true vertical grain - let's say in the 70deg. to 90deg. range for the growth rings to intersect the surface of your floor board.  If you have plenty of logs, go with 1-1/8.
Comment for #4:  Since the concensus already seems to be to quarter saw,  keep in mind that sawing methods which create stable, vertical grain boards, regardless of whether you do the true method or some other tricks of sawing which will give you that vertical grain, tend to create many differing widths of boards. If you do your edging on the band mill,  you may want to shuffle the varied strips into groups.  Then you can edge those groups, reducing your waste. You will also be doing some ripping-to-width on some of your wider boards.  (You don't want to get too wide, because of the radiant floor heating and the attendant cycling/shrinking.)  Practically speaking,  random widths make sense.   Aesthetically,  it's up to you (or in my case, up to the lady of the house).

Sorry it I tend to answer the questions one asks.  (That's my nature.  I wouldn,t last as a politician, would I?)  Very good questions!  I hope this summarizes the excellent answers you have seen above from all the guys!
Phil L.

[RacinRex]

Moosehunter,
I would love to see that video. Is it on DVD of VHS I'd be able to copy either but DVD is easier in my little technology world. It's nice to see someone on the board so close. You can email me if you like jim@redline-computer.com and we can setup a time to copy or view. If you are interested in seeing my little setup and the new house we are building you are more than welcome to head out here at some point.

Phl,
What can I say? great answers but I have a question on quartersawing, we actually a couple.

Is the main goal of quarter sawing to end up with 90 degree grain? Urbanloger has a description of his method on his website. Is this the method I should be using on a bandmill with olnly around 8 inches of clearance?

Thanks, Jim

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

In my mind there are three categories of reasoning, regarding why to quarter saw :

A.   The most common reason might be appearance.  For example many oak species, and Sycamore, Elm,  and others have striking ray features which look good to some people.  Others don't like it
B.   The second reason might be stability in seasoning.  In general,  drying tends to create less cupping and checking on quartersawn boards, regardless of the species.
C.   Finally, as in your case, dimensional and shape stability in actual use/application can be the reason for doing it.   For example, your flooring will change less in width per unit change of moisture content, if it is quartersawn, as opposed to flat(plain) sawn.  In my world of piano work,   such stability is critical for both the quality, tone, and longevity of top quality instruments.  Working on 100 to 150 yr.-old pianos has proven this over and over to me.

The book The Encyclopedia of Wood has comparison charts, which will give you figures for tangential shrinkage (across a flat-sawn board), as well as radial shrinkage (across a vertical grain or quartersawn board).   The difference between these two can be considerable.   True White Oak shrinks 5.6% radially, but 10.5% tangentially - a big difference.  In the real world, this means that gaps in your floor in the dryness of winter heating will be roughly half as much with q-sawn versus plain-sawn White Oak. On the other hand,  Live Oak shrinks 6.6% tangentially, but only 9.5 along the tangent.  (as a side note, the ratio can give you an idea of how much cupping to expect from a given flat-sawn board of a given species.)

Well, gotta' go back to work!
PHil L.

[Tom]

Another reason that vertical grain is used for flooring is because of improved wear resistance.   Vertical grain exposes more  "winter" (late growth) wood to the wear surface than flat sawed boards.  The "summer" (early growth) wood is soft and flat-sawed boards expose more of it to the wear surface.

Most of the reasons to use vertical grain in a floor are for stability and wear.   When the interest is more toward the esthetics of the figure in flat-sawed boards, one can find ways of stabilizing them and protecting the surface with hard finishes to enable their use.

There are some applications when the physical attributes over-ride the esthetics and there is no choice but to use one orientation of grain.  With the improvements in glues and finishes, we are lucky in this day and age to be able to make choices that our Grandfathers weren't afforded.  

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Guy that we are rippin up floor for, is installing White Oak that is Flat sawn. Down here, we get huge humidity swings, because, the owners go north for the summer and set the humidistat on 70%, and they come down in the winter and set the A/C-Heat on 70° and dry out the wood, so that the drywall gets cracks in every corner and joint.

  NOW, the storms have soaked the flloring and ¾" plywood underlayment, so, we are ripping everything up to get rid of mold and mildew.

  MIGHT take pics tomorrow. Trying to get done fast so we can start shingling on Sunday. :

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Florida!
I hope that mold doesn't zap your brain.  We would hate to lose your insights or even your hind-sights. (no bun intended)

 What's it called ?  Stacci Botris or something?   It's bad news!

Tom .   Thanks for the reminder about 1/4sawn wearing more evenly.   On old guy first told me about that.  He was complaining about a stage floor which had been done in flats. pine.   He pointed to some with vertical grain.   The difference in wear in that 75 year old floor from board to board was amazing!

Phil L.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Had to quit early today. The second house had a LOT of mold and mildew. After we pulled the Ipe, we pulled the tarpaper and you would slide on the plywood. It was slimy and the smell was bad. We turned the A/C down to 70° and left.

[ScottAR]

FDH, Try and give yourself some air in there...  I'm more sensitive to mold than I was years ago...  I can't take it anymore, just a few minutes exposure and I have a headache the rest of the day.  Be safe...

Removal of the offending stuff is the only total way as you know.  Something that will kill off the stuff you can't get and mostly wipe out the smell is cheap vinegar and cheap bleach mixed 1/1 in a glass or plastic dish.   I usually put one cup of each per container; one container per room; two on big rooms.   Shut up the house and wait 24hrs.  Air the place out and start to work.

Really helps a lot.  HTH

[Oregon_Sawyer]

Here is a floor I just did this fall.  This is the great room of my Log Home. This room is about 700 sq ft.  I used random width rustic Oregon Oak.  Some of the wood came from trees that were where the house is built.


I cut the wood 1 1/16 to 1 1/8.  I used finished product up to 4 1/2 inches wide.  This is over a radiant floor heat system.   1 1/2 slab of concrete with tubes about 8 inches apart with nailers between the tubes in the concrete.

I am pleased with the appearance of the floor.  I would not even consider a clear floor as the burl, quartersawn and knot clusters are what make the floor.

Hindsight.

I would have cut the lumber all at 1 1/16 minimum.  I cut up to 12 and 14 ft boards.  I edged the lumber before it was KD'd.  This was a waste of time as the oak moved dramatically when dryed.  (I would just leave it random width, even with bark on the sides)  The straight line rip will optimize your recovery.  I lost some boards down to the next size as they wouldn't clean up.  Long boards with sweep were cut in two before the straight line rip.

I was against a deadline for closing so the boards were layed right off my trailer onto the floor. I did all the the trim for defect and length.  The gap between nailers dictated the widths and lengths you use.

It would have been better to acclimate the floor for a week or two before it was nailed down.  (I did that on the fir floor)  4 1/2 inches is probably too wide.  After the floor was finished it has moved more than I expected.  In bare feet you can feel the joints.  I love the look and it is a rustic style so I can live with it.  If you go rustic you need to think about where any extreme character boards go!!  Do you want them to be the focal point.

Would I do it again?  YOU BET!!  Just a little different.

By the way my stove is a Heat Source 1.

I have been so busy since we moved in I haven't had time to go to this site.  I will post the final pictures of the house soon.

Loren

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Nice job, Loren. Good to see you posting. You have done an excellent job building your house.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Loren,

What a shot of that floor!   You have obviously just done what I have dreamed of doing - building your own house with at least some of your own materials.

You particular radiant floor situation will be an excellent test.  The reason I say that is that Oregon has one of the highest in wood moisture content percentages in the country, during the spring and summer. Your floors can tell us whether my picky-ness about Q-sawn, or Indylan's note about solid wood not mixing with radiant floor heating, are all wet,...  er, well. ??? :-/

By the way,  what species is  Oregon Oak?  The reason I ask is that the way different oaks respond to humidity-change varies drastically.   Cherry Bark and White are sweet, while Laurel Oak and Water oak here in the South are piteeful,  just piteeful.   Here in Georgia, Laurel Oak might as well go for firewood.
Phil L.

[woodmills1]

Oregon sawyer

My lovely wife walked by and saw the picture of your floor and immediatley said wow that is really nice!  Then she said I sould caution you to a situation we have as one room in our house is floored and paneled with wood from trees that stood where the room is.

Friends and visitors tend to get mesmerized and don't want to leave!  Hope you have sleeping room for guests.