Quartersaw Price??

[Randy]

Got a couple of question's---You guys know I just started sawing a few weeks back so I am not familiar with prices. Most sawyers in my area charge 15 cent a Board foot. How much should I charge to Quartersaw? Also do you charge the same price to saw 1000 feet of 1" as you do to saw 1000 feet of 2"?

[Buzz-sawyer]

I am not sure about your local mills..........but 15 cents is the lowest rate I have heard of...especially since fuel has risen 1/3 in price.........
....20 cents is not going to make you too rich either... ;)

...but it might help with gas and all....
Quartwer sawn is much more time consuming and should reflect it in price
 and most sawyers I know dont discount vollume...

a lot of guys do nice things equating to a discount for larger jobs...like mobile sawyer wave travel and or set up fees....

[dutchman]

I've been operating at 23 cents a bdf for custom work.Clean logs at the mill.
I have cut pallet lumber at 18 cents, with a helper supplied by the buyer.
Q sawn is priced by the job. Size of logs,quality,total bdf,species.
Low price last year @ 40 cents bdf.

[Tobacco Plug]

Randy,
I suggest that you charge by the hour for quartersawing.  That's what I do for any unusual sawing application, including when the logs are shorter than 10 feet, less than 8 inches on the small end, or the customer doesn't provide a helper to roll logs onto the mill and offbear lumber.  My regular fee is .20 per board foot sawn and I just raised it this year from .18 per foot.  My hourly rate is a cheap $38 per hour if the customer provides a helper.  If I bring someone I get $10 more.  These hourly rates were based on an average of what I could cut in a day's sawing average logs, applying the per board foot rate, and dividing by the number of hours worked.  

I think you will find that while there is some beautiful timber around the Conway, SC area, many people will want you to cut some very small junk that should go to the paper mill.  These undersize logs make it impossible to earn a decent wage with your mill.  It has taken me a while to learn it but it is better to let your mill sit idle than it is to run the heck out of it to find out you have cleared $47 in a day of sawing.  The hourly rate solves this problem.

Your should also consider a travel fee during these times of high fuel prices.  I haven't charged anyone yet, but I also haven't had any calls from very far away lately.   ;D

[FeltzE]

Just north of you here in NC we are getting .175 cents per bd ft. Just went up last year from .15 cents.

We also charge $45/ hr for specialty work such as quartersawing.

Now for another question... whats so bad about .15 cents? assuming your using a 2000 bd/ft per day mill thats $300 per day. less 10-20% in operating costs, thats still $270-$240 per day in profit thats not so bad for most of the east coast. That is if your doing production work.

Eric

[Randy]

FeltzE
 15 cent comes out good if everything runs ok. I cut 1600ft in 6 hours, cutting 1' thick, But it takes alot longer to cut 1" than 2" so I was wondering if anyone of you charged more if 1" thick is all the Customer wants. Thanks everyone for your help. Randy

[Tom]

Unless I get involved in a really "off the wall" job, I charge twenty cents a foot for anything they want off of the mill.   I do it for several reasons.  

One is that I've found that timbers are hard to get off of the mill and the time pretty much equates with sawing dimensional stuff.  So, unless all I'm doing is cutting timbers and set up to do so, I make no differentation.

1xs cut a little slower than 2x's but I charge the same board footage.  

My logic is that I'm providing a sawing service and the simpler I keep the rules the more comfortable the customer will be with the job. If they don't feel comfortable then someone else will get the job next time.  

It all pretty much evens out.  You give and take, he gives and takes and you will still hit the daily board footage mark most of the time.

Now, if you are given pencil poles and they want 1x4's, its time to talk an hourly charge.

If he has tractors, big logs and wants 12 x 12's then you might want to do an hourly charge with a minimum and give him the incentive to do all of the work.  

The trick is make the customer feel like he got the better part of the deal.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Hi Eric
I dont think there is anything wrong with 15 cents.
I guess it is all relative to what you want and need.
For example 10 cents is fine too.
 I f that will meet your needs .....and as far as competition...the 10 cent guy will get plenty of work in a free market economy.
I think it has alot to do with if a person saws daily , has the mil payed for, is willing to work hard, weather or not they are portable....many variables.
I do not travel to saw, I run a stationary circular mill that has manual dogging and log handling, I can cut 8-10 m a day easily with a helper.when cutting a mixture of cants and lumber
I wont custom cut 1x stock for 20 cents its not profitable for me, I have other fish to fry..........thats my perspective.

Another way of lookin at it is, if a fella doesnt get to saw every day the total amount of daily profit is spread out over the entire month, so the average profit is greatly decreased when monthly costs are applied.....
Mill payement............................$170
insurance...................................$60
daily blades/sharpen@20 days....$380
gas to and from job@20..............$300
gas for mill................................$200
$1,110 to run 20 days.Thats about 20% over head.
This amount doesnt account for misc expenses and break downs.(and is conservative)
The 15 cents yields $6000 monthly or $69,000 less$12,765 costs; a year with 2 week vacation.
Thats sawing 460,000 feet a year.....

How many days do we saw a month?
Every day...
Running around sawing 2000 bdft a day on a bandmill is a LOT of work
My point..........charging what will pay the bills and make the profit we personally desire is what its about, but costs ALWAYS seem to excede our buisiness plans ;)
Part time and payed for equipement is a different world than full time makin payements.

[Ga_Boy]

Randy,

Up here in Maryland, the mills are charging $.25/bf for flat ant rift sawing.

QS is going for $.45/bf.  More material handling so more cost involved.

Do not be afraid to make a profit.




Mark

[WH_Conley]

First rule of business : There must be a profit.

That's all I can tell you, you know your situation better than anyone else.

Quatering should be more, beams maybe less.

I did a job a while back the guy wanted 6x8 beams and a deal, he provided the labor.

Beams $.10

Lumber from outside the beam $.20

A local mill tried to hire me to saw for them about a month ago, said a neighbor of mine would saw for $.10, told them to get him, talked to him the other day, he said they told him the same thing about me. Don't know if they suckered anybody yet or not.

Make a profit or go broke.

[FeltzE]

Interesting and informative comments. I certainly can't disagree with anyones comments  : ;)  Everyones situation is a little different, with different operating costs and overhead.

I think it's interesting that people actually pay as much as .45 for cutting, in this area rough cut yellow pine straight  off the mill sells for .45 and up. I can go through wholesale distributors and buy kd hardwoods for much less than small operators like many of us sell for. The difference is that I would need to buy in larger lots not 35 foot quantities.

The term nich market comes to mind, we provide a different market service than larger commercial mills, and should price according to our regional market and service provided.

Different mills are optomized to different capabilities as well which effects profitability.

We cater to the individual, and sell more lumber than we are custom sawing these days. But that could change too.

 Randy, I charge the same for 1 and 2 inch stock which is .175 / ft, unless it's a small job which I charge a minimum or hourly fee. I try to keep each job simple as the local folks don't think to kindly about complex charges.

Eric

[BBTom]

I charge .30 for sawing and .10 extra for quartersawing.  I do not believe anyone has changed their mind about quartersawing because of price.  

[Tobacco Plug]

Eric is right about complex charges.  Keep it to a minimum.  I think that people will say that you are cheating them when you have too many angles on how you charge, plus set up fees, etc.  I give my customers a flyer with all the terms and conditions on it before sawing so that most questions are already answered.  This also lets them know that they need to have their logs piled in such a way so that they may be rolled onto the mill.  It amazes me that so many people think that you can just pick up that log "over yonder" and bring it to the mill.  Some people get their trees dropped and cut to length, then call me to come saw them where they lay.  For this reason, I always try to visit the job site before quoting a price or even agreeing to do the job.

[DR Buck]

Randy,

Here in Northern VA, I'm one of the lower priced portable mills around.  I charge .25 bf for flat sawing including edging, and .40 bf for quarter sawn.   However, before I charge for quarter sawing I tell the customer that just doing flat sawing at .25 bf they will end up with about 1/3 of the finished product as quarter sawn and no extra charge.   Most then go for the flat sawing.   I charge more for the quarter sawing because it takes longer, and there is less yield, and the total yield (finished boards) is what I get paid for.

As a note on my pricing, Since I have a full time engineering job I only saw part time. As long as I can cover expenses and make the mill payment I'm happy.   I make much more profit when I saw up the free logs I get into fence boards and sell them at $6 - $7 each.

[rl]

TOBACCO PLUG       boy the last part of that comment said it right.   I went to look at a job today, the guy told me they were up the logging road so i started driving it. 1\4 mile later two culverts just wide enough for my truck on corners.  a couple dips that would have had the tires a foot of the ground once the back of the mill started dragging.   also 4-5 inches of snow on ground  i turned around in the first place i thought i  could.  and this guy has seen my mill,i've sawn for him before                                                                                      The last job before that we had about 20 log 90 degrees to mill   we moved some around but the last half dozen were froze to ground. we left and he called me to see why i didn't finish them. i told him it wasn't my job, he said your help could have done it. i replyed wer'e there to saw , not do you're job for you    WHAT DO SOME PEOPLE THINK

[music_boy]

     Been keeping an eye on this thread because I'm new to sawing and pricing for same. I want to keep my fees simple for me and the customer. Sawing for bdft is o.k., but I know I'll forget to talley something and the customer will have moved it. Hourly rate will work but some customers may fell if you take a break you should clock out :  I've got a pretty good idea of what I need to make for a day of sawing, and how much I can cut under average conditions ect. ect.
So, how bout something like this:
Under 12 ft long and 16 " dia.
         straight sawn w\ edging or sized.            30.00 per log
         Q sawn                                                 40.00 per
.Over 12 ft and 16" dia                                      50.00 per
          Q sawn                                                 65.00 per
Crotch wood or other than standard saw techniques required
           50.00 per hour with one hour min. If help required, possible additional charges.
     All above has a 100.00 min per job.
Seems most local customers will have several logs of different sizes ect. and something "special" they want cut, a burl or something.
     I'm just thinkin here. I find this simple, the customer will right away know what it will cost. You will know how much you should make.  It also seems the law of averages will work the size vs cost thing out. Alot of small logs, you may make out but It takes basically the same moves and work to load, position, saw and turn a log. Mines hysraulic so it works for me. Sawing 5 or ten more feet isn't a big deal. (yet            ;D)
     Also, I have had the customer use my metal detector to find the metal. I would do that but I still want the customer to "de-tramp" his or her logs. Can't blame me for messin up too much wood to get out metal. The customer is motivated. I provide the detector, but I charge 7.00  every time I hit metal and can't saw with that blade any further.
Just some ideas and would appreciate ideas positive or negative thoughts
Thanks
Rick

[Tom]

I think you will find that a  little experience will have your log charges too expensive.  I can saw a 16"diameter, 8 foot log in under 10 minutes. $180 an hour might run off a bunch of customers.

Your $50 per hour charge is reasonable, and it helps to get the customer involved to save time.  It's simple and should cover setup (not necessarily break-down)  time to make sure that the area is prepared.  You call the breaks.  I really mean it.  verbally shout it out......"Break time!"  that way they know that the clock has stopped.

When you get in front of a stack of good logs, you can charge by the Board Foot and experience will have you making more than $50 per hour.  It's the way to make money when the site is good, the help is good, you can finish quickly and have another job lined up as soon as you finish.  That's when experience and not dragging your feet will make your hourly wage climb like crazy.

Don't be too anxious to set your rules in concrete until you have some production experience.   Your going to find that you will eventually get pretty good at reading the sites, the logs and the customers.

www.tomssaw.com

[music_boy]

Tom,
      Here's my thought process on this.
      A 16" by 8 ft will have 85 bdft based on international. At .25 per that's 21.25.  A 16  X  12 has 130 and at .25 is 32.50.  You are certainly sawing faster than I can, but the customer is still paying by the board foot on average. (average,,more or less)    If your production is higher than mine,  so much the better for you,,, If it takes me longer,, the customer still pays relative. You make 180.00 an hour,,, I make ,maybe 60. The experienced sawyer makes more money.
What do ya think???
Rick

[Tom]

I think that whatever works for you is fine. Just keep in mind that you don't want to scare a customer off with a big ticket item.  Once you run him off it's hard to get him back.

You might be better off with an hourly charge until you get a firm handle on your capabilities.  It has to work for you and the customer both.  Personally I don't think I would ever charge by the log.  There are too many variables.

You can justify an hourly charge easily enough.  The customer is "renting' you.  It's the same as if he wanted a field mowed and hired a tractor and operator.

You can justify a Board Foot charge because he knows what the bill will be.  It'll be what his logs produce.

A charge by the log would have to be a set price for a job. The log being the job.  You might charge more for one log than another depending on limbs, dirt, bark and size of lumber wanted.

What you have applied your logic to makes sense. Perhaps it would work for you.   The best test is in the field.  

[music_boy]

     I very much agree as I gain experience, I may\probably will change my thinking and adjust. For me, right now, I think this will work as long as the customer sees the logic as well. Another thought, is to show the customer the bdft of lumber in each log by measuring and showing on a log scale. I suppose the trick there is to make sure you equal or better the estimate so the customer is confident they are getting what they pay for and therefore happy. I suppose what I'm trying to do here is factor in my newness to this business\service and see that the customer gets a good deal, but not totally at my expense. Fine line at times.
Good thoughts,, Thanks
Rick

[DR Buck]

MB

....the customer is confident they are getting what they pay for and therefore happy

The customer getting what they pay for is the ticket.  I make sure they know that they only pay (by the bf) for the lumber stack at the end of the day no matter how may cuts or what size the log is.  They seem very happy to pay by the bf for what ever is in the "good wood" pile when I'm done.  Anything that ends up with to much stress, taper, to thin, twisted or is just a bad piece of wood I throw in the slab pile.   If they want to set it aside to keep that's fine.  It's a free piece of wood.   I only charge for the quality cuts.

What helps me on small logs is my minimum charge of $200 to take the mill on the road to a site.  Anything up to 800 bf is covered.  When I know I'm dealing with small logs or only one or two nice size logs that are way under 800 bf, I offer them my straight bf charge of .25  with no minimum if they bring the logs to me.

I have also created special pricing for "halving"  fence posts if the amount is excessively over the 800 bf  equivalent.
 
Seems to work and everybody is happy.

[FeltzE]

I was just talking to my wife about pricing, we own a pet grooming shop in town, their Groomers Forum is in lock down due to discussions about pricing it would seem that they aren't capable of discussing the cost of operations and expectations without throwing food 8)

So congratulations to all the members of FF on being sane and professional in their discussions!!!

I know this thread has been open for a while but my discussion with my better half got me to thinking on how we ended up priced where we are today.

Initially we price checked the local area and set our prices the same as other sawmills. Eventually we looked at it from an hourly perspective ...

What is my hourly expectation for profit? (P)
What is my cost of operation/ hr? (O)
What is my hourly expectation for $ set aside for improvements? (I)

Add them up and get an hourly price. P+O+I= hourly rate (H1)

Review the board feet per hour that we cut and convert our price per foot to an average income per hour.
(Bd Ft/hr) * ($/bd Ft) = Hourly Rate (H2)

How does  H1 compare to H2? When cutting 1 inch lumber my goal was to make them pretty close, of course  adjustments can always be made by quoting different jobs differently, as noted earlier cutting cants yields more bd ft / hr and ultimately is billed less per board foot then other commodities.

Expect to "spend" time and effort on education of your customers if you are doing a lot of custom sawmilling for consumers. Just this past week I looked at 2 jobs with "great logs" The first was going to be 2-3 mbf of hardwoods, turns out the average size was under 10 inches knotty and hickory, none of which I'm interested in cutting on a band mill, the second was some "great oak logs " they are clearing all the oaks off a nearby golf course, I asked him to bring down his first 3... 6' lengths of post oak plenty knotty, I sawed them while he waited, charged him a minimum fee then educated him on what a good saw log should look like.

Eric

[FeltzE]

Sorry, correction to my wifes comment... they don't throw food, they throw "dog poo"

:

[twostroke_blood]

I Love This Thread, I just purchased a Sawmill. Ive been considering what kind of price im going to ask for custom work. I too thought .15/per ft would suffice however, Tom & Buzz-sawyer convinced me otherwize. Im sure im going to charge .20/per ft and if they dont like it, I wont do it !! All things considered if .20/ is to high for my future customers i'd rather buy logs and sell lumber then ill get a return on the buying and selling of the logs and my time and effort on my Sawmill. I bought the sawmill as sideline slash hobby but that dosent mean i want to lose money. W.H_Conley said " Make Money or go Broke" i agree with that statement whole heartedly and its great advice . So Thanks alot guys keep the great info coming...

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Let me throw some sawdust onto this topic. : ;D

  It doesn't matter to me if you saw for a living, or, just part-time. The mill price is the same.

  We do different sawing than nearly anyone here. We don't offer "Custom Sawing". If someone stops when we are sawing, I ignore them. When we finish a log, we immediately load another onto the mill. THEN, I will shut down, unless it's the last log.

  My reasoning is, they watch what we do, how long it takes, and they ALWAYS get to feel the lumber. "Man, that doesn't really need planing, huh???"

  They know IF we saw their stuff, it  should look just like what they can feel.

  We had 1 guy walk away, out of about 20 customers. We TRY to saw stuff we probably should not. We charge a "TRYING" fee to do that.

  We charge .35 a bd/ft, ½X, 1X, 2X 4X, it doesn't matter. We saw to 16' long, longer if we are desperate.  :

  There is another guy 3 miles away. EVERYONE that stops by says, "You know Burt"???  Nope. He has a mill. That so ??? Yep, but, his stuff don't look near as good as yours. He don't charge as much, either. (I love this part), I can see why !!!  Need some sawing done??? Yup. Gonna use cheap Burt ??? NO WAY !!!  He screws everybody.

  When we agree on the job, they bring the logs to us, CLEAN as possible. We wash them with a hose and Ed and I saw them. We don't want anyone getting in our way.  We just have a system that works for us, and the customer can watch, or they can leave and come back.

  Nearly always, we cut them a deal, after the sawing is done. That way, if something tears up, we don't lose, but, we NEVER take advantage of a customer. They have agreed to the price. A deal gets a BIG smile and a handshake EVERY time.

  Ole Burt stopped by one day. Asked a LOT of questions. What blade, what set, who sharpens. Monkey Blades ;D ;D ;D, set depends on how it saws, I do. Burt hung around a while, rubbed some boards, then left.  : ;D ;D ;D

  As most said, it's the customer that counts, BUT, don't saw too cheap. You can find it very hard to raise the price later.  Do GOOD work, start a little higher, and let the others work themselves to death.  ;) ;D ;D ;D