I am ready to go back to hobby sawing for myself.

ozarkgem · August 30, 2016, 07:09:20 PM

Here are two ways t lose money on a sawmill. None of this is the customers fault. They were really nice folks. One guy wanted 8 5x5 cedar. As per previous post I had some in stock but all had turned gray from the sun. People like to see the color of Cedar.
I broke 2 new blades sawing 8 5x5 I was not pushing hard. Same blades I have used for years. Usually don't break till after 8-10 sharpenings. So I am out the cost of 2 blades on this job and spent a hr with the customer. Did I make any money on this deal? No. Next customer called and wanted a small order for a restoration job. 6 1x8 and 4 1x4. I misunderstood him and was showing him 1x6's . He said he needed 1x8's . I had a stack of 10. Only 3 were good enough for his restoration. No problem I understand. I have another stack. All I can see are the ends. The 1x8's are halfway down the stack. I start unstacking get to them and they have wane on the edge. Won't work. I said here is what I will do. I will cut some and bring them to you. I don't mind. I found a log that would make a 8x8 cant and cut 8 1x8's. Got 3 good one's . 3 will make 1x4's and 2 for lumber pallets. Got it all done and he called and said he wanted 1 more 1x8. Back to the log pile finally found one that would make an 8x8 cant. Got 1 good 1x8. It had a hidden hole in it. Did I make any money on these jobs? not a dime. This is the way it goes every day. I am ready to get a job and go back to sawing just for me.

dustintheblood · August 30, 2016, 08:21:33 PM

Can't says I miss those days....

longtime lurker · August 30, 2016, 08:40:06 PM

Welcome to my world... everyday here we try and make silk purses from sows ears. I get asked all the time why I want to get bigger, and while I answer about economies of scale and all that kinda stuff... at the end of the day the real answer is that I need to be able to process sows ears faster so I can fill orders easier so I can eat.
At the end of the day we all get to make this choice and its as simple as "What do I want to achieve here?" Cut a few boards for myself/ have a paying hobby/make a living?

I used to be involved in a big mill - part owner (little part) and operations manager. I got out - wasnt ready to get out but we got eaten by a bigger fish. Few years later I came back, bought a portable mill, just wanted to process a few logs on the side and build myself a new house. Six years later and I'm in debt up to my capacity to repay, got dozers and loaders and skidders and forklifts and trucks, got saws and kilns and drymill gear, got headaches about getting paid on time and headaches about paying on time and headaches about not enough work and headaches about too much work in the time we got to do it and headaches about who's coming to work: got 10 cents in the bank and everything else tied up in equipment and logs and sawn lumber... and lately I wonder what I'm trying to achieve, and wouldnt it be better if I just went and got a real job and spent weekends sawing lumber to build that new house?

I think for all of us there are times when it doesnt hurt to be a bit introspective, and to stick our head out of the sawdust pile and look about and ask where we think we're going and how are we going to get there. Problem is for me at least... well I got the tiger by the tail to some degree... but theres a fair bit of "a bad days sawing is better then a good days just about anything else" about it too.

Sawmilling is a disease.

Magicman · August 30, 2016, 08:46:51 PM

Those are some of the primary reasons that I got out of the lumber business. Then I got out of the stationary sawing business because of log handling plus slab/sawdust cleanup. Portable sawing only for me. ;D

123maxbars · August 30, 2016, 08:52:26 PM

Hard days I agree, been there,

POSTON WIDEHEAD · August 30, 2016, 08:52:49 PM

Quote from: ozarkgem on August 30, 2016, 07:09:20 PM
One guy wanted 8 5x5 cedar. As per previous post I had some in stock but all had turned gray from the sun. People like to see the color of Cedar.

I keep on hand a belt sander. I can give a gray Cedar post a fresh look in minutes.
Also it would help to keep Cedar out of the sun when storing.

4x4American · August 30, 2016, 09:11:35 PM

Sometimes you're the chicken and sometimes you're the hatchet...

killamplanes · August 30, 2016, 09:34:43 PM

Chicken here :D :D :D

cliffreaves · August 30, 2016, 09:52:46 PM

I really appreciated reading this thread. Quoting my father in law here, "the grass isn't greener on either side really". He's a farmer and I'm in the corporate world. A little introspection is always a good thing. Otherwise you find yourself on a river in a canoe without a paddle. Better to have a paddle and a purpose. You may hit a rock and lose your paddle, but you better find another paddle quick. Always know where you wanna go and what you want to achieve.

killamplanes · August 30, 2016, 10:16:45 PM

Well I can relate to this topic. Last Saturday 4 o'clock in evening I got a frantic call from a company that runs 24 hours a day that I supply/repair pallets for. The evening shift started and noticed they had no pallets in stock. Ironic thing was a week prior I sent a text to all 3 shift managers that I had a trailer truck ready for delivery and let me now when they have my next trailer load ready to back haul back. Well lets just say they did nothing until they were out. This is a business with hundreds of employees. using pallets to ship with, on 50 semi trailers. So I have become a 911 service. This kind of thing drives a person crazy. So I hopped in the semi took it in there dropped it on the loading dock while half the shift was looking at me because there automated machine that loads and wraps goods was shutdown due to no pallets. I'm telling ya you can't make this stuff up. That's why I have forced myself to stay a small business maybe a lot of different businesses but small...

4x4American · August 30, 2016, 10:29:38 PM

I hope you added an emergency delivery charge!

scully · August 30, 2016, 11:54:08 PM

Unless you are prety good sized yard mill operation have found I normally come up on the short end of custom orders . I hate trying to find logs only to saw out half the yeild for an order . I tend to seek people who agree to just buy the logs and have me make them all the lumber . It doesnt happen much but it has .

Brucer · August 31, 2016, 01:09:12 AM

You need to be very careful about calculating profit (or loss) on a single job. It can lead to bad business decisions.

For example, applying the cost of a broken blade to a single job isn't realistic. The blade lost some of its life on previous sawing jobs. Did you charge a portion of its cost to those jobs? And blade life varies, so how do you decide how much of a blade's value to charge to a single job?

If you spend extra time talking to a customer and don't have any other jobs lined up, then how do you decide what the "talking time" really cost?

Imagine you "lose" money on a small job because the customer keeps asking for better quality, or better appearance. What if the customer comes in a week later, and having been educated by you, hands you a well thought out cut list, with detailed descriptions of what is acceptable, and a reasonable time frame to do the work? Was that first job really a loss?

Suppose you saw into a log stop and wreck a brand new blade (not that any experienced sawyer would ever do that :D). Do you apply the cost of the blade to that particular job, or do you apply it to "education" (yours)?

Sure there are good days, bad days, frustrating days, and days we figure we should have just stayed home. The big question is, "Am I making enough money in the long run to make this worthwhile?"

plowboyswr · August 31, 2016, 03:16:47 AM

Quote from: killamplanes on August 30, 2016, 10:16:45 PM
Well I can relate to this topic. Last Saturday 4 o'clock in evening I got a frantic call from a company that runs 24 hours a day that I supply/repair pallets for. The evening shift started and noticed they had no pallets in stock. Ironic thing was a week prior I sent a text to all 3 shift managers that I had a trailer truck ready for delivery and let me now when they have my next trailer load ready to back haul back. Well lets just say they did nothing until they were out. This is a business with hundreds of employees. using pallets to ship with, on 50 semi trailers. So I have become a 911 service. This kind of thing drives a person crazy. So I hopped in the semi took it in there dropped it on the loading dock while half the shift was looking at me because there automated machine that loads and wraps goods was shutdown due to no pallets. I'm telling ya you can't make this stuff up. That's why I have forced myself to stay a small business maybe a lot of different businesses but small...

This sounds a lot like the plant where I work since they implemented this J I T program. Just in time doesn't work we run out of supplies more often than not. I spent all Saturday and Sunday shuttling product from one plant to our main facility to keep a machine running so we could meet a customer order. :

Peter Drouin · August 31, 2016, 06:20:01 AM

It's all in management, And knowing when to say NO.

ozarkgem · August 31, 2016, 07:13:06 AM

Quote from: Brucer on August 31, 2016, 01:09:12 AM
You need to be very careful about calculating profit (or loss) on a single job. It can lead to bad business decisions.

For example, applying the cost of a broken blade to a single job isn't realistic. The blade lost some of its life on previous sawing jobs. Did you charge a portion of its cost to those jobs? And blade life varies, so how do you decide how much of a blade's value to charge to a single job?

If you spend extra time talking to a customer and don't have any other jobs lined up, then how do you decide what the "talking time" really cost?

Imagine you "lose" money on a small job because the customer keeps asking for better quality, or better appearance. What if the customer comes in a week later, and having been educated by you, hands you a well thought out cut list, with detailed descriptions of what is acceptable, and a reasonable time frame to do the work? Was that first job really a loss?

Suppose you saw into a log stop and wreck a brand new blade (not that any experienced sawyer would ever do that :D). Do you apply the cost of the blade to that particular job, or do you apply it to "education" (yours)?

Sure there are good days, bad days, frustrating days, and days we figure we should have just stayed home. The big question is, "Am I making enough money in the long run to make this worthwhile?"

My point was this time it was the blade(they were new by the way). next time a bearing , next time a tire and it never ends. An hr spent with the customer is an hr not sawing or building something to sell. If everybody at a car plant stopped and talked for an hr would they consider that a cost? Been in business since 1978. Do small customers turn into big customers? In my case 98% of the time no. Sometimes they do come back but its the same thing over again.Big customers figure since they are big buyers they can beat you down on price. Don't play that game. Part of the problem here is there are so many Amish sawmills. They come to me and get a price the run to them and of course they will sell for less, then they come back to me and want advice on how to dry it and finish it plane it and so on. I play dumb and tell them I don't know. :D. I think last night I decided to go back to hobby sawing. I will make some money some other way. I still enjoy sawing. May have a huge lumber pile here for the estate auction.

Cedarman · August 31, 2016, 08:02:30 AM

We do mostly custom orders from one board to truck loads. Having a large supply of logs on hand helps. If logs get old we saw into cants and then into either 3/4, 7/8 or 1" depending on width and orders.
We just got an order for 10 1" x 8" x 8'. This will be picked up with an order already completed by a good customer.
When sawing the 11" logs we will go for the 1", but if we see the quality is too low, then we will make 2" x 8" for garden beds. We sell several hundred of those 2x8 through out the year. These are the backup plan when we saw 8".
If this had been a stand alone order, I would have added a quarter a foot to regular price since it is a small order. I do add 10 cents a foot if a customer specifies widths.
I enjoy talking as much as anyone . But there are times when work comes first. Body language is a big cue when talk is over. If you are seated, just standing up is a good cue. And there is nothing wrong with politely saying, " I have to get back to work".
If you break a new blade, time to figure out what caused it. Several good threads on here about blade troubleshooting.
And has been said, "It is good to once in a while to stand back and reconnoiter the situation."

DMcCoy · August 31, 2016, 08:15:31 AM

I have heard that the average length of self employment is 20 yrs. After that owners get cranky with all the constant BS they have to put up with.
I have 4 more years to magic 20. I have made changes in the last few years to make it better for me.
I like my customers, the ones I do not like....well.... I want them to go somewhere else. For them I am simply "sold out" when they call.
I'm happier being smaller and having someone appreciate what it is I do, and I work hard to keep them happy. My prices are fair, not cheap, not expensive.
Those who are(extreme); slow pay, play pricing games, take hrs of time for small $, I actually want them to be my competitions burden. Gives me some satisfaction thinking about it, 2 birds one stone.

Kingcha · August 31, 2016, 08:41:58 AM

Quote from: DMcCoy on August 31, 2016, 08:15:31 AM
I have heard that the average length of self employment is 20 yrs. After that owners get cranky with all the constant BS they have to put up with.

I barely made 15 year. Lol I was in the restaurant business. Now I'm unemployable I've been told.

When I first got my mill I was planning/hoping to make some part time money. So far I'm just hobby sawing which is all right with me

Matt

Magicman · August 31, 2016, 08:44:07 AM

This is my 14th year to saw so does that mean that I can retire next year?? ??? 8)

ozarkgem · August 31, 2016, 08:47:37 AM

Quote from: DMcCoy on August 31, 2016, 08:15:31 AM
I have heard that the average length of self employment is 20 yrs. After that owners get cranky with all the constant BS they have to put up with.
I have 4 more years to magic 20. I have made changes in the last few years to make it better for me.
I like my customers, the ones I do not like....well.... I want them to go somewhere else. For them I am simply "sold out" when they call.
I'm happier being smaller and having someone appreciate what it is I do, and I work hard to keep them happy. My prices are fair, not cheap, not expensive.
Those who are(extreme); slow pay, play pricing games, take hrs of time for small $, I actually want them to be my competitions burden. Gives me some satisfaction thinking about it, 2 birds one stone.

Maybe that is the problem, I am getting close to double the time.

ozarkgem · August 31, 2016, 08:52:44 AM

Quote from: Kingcha on August 31, 2016, 08:41:58 AM
Quote from: DMcCoy on August 31, 2016, 08:15:31 AM
I have heard that the average length of self employment is 20 yrs. After that owners get cranky with all the constant BS they have to put up with.

I barely made 15 year. Lol I was in the restaurant business. Now I'm unemployable I've been told.

When I first got my mill I was planning/hoping to make some part time money. So far I'm just hobby sawing which is all right with me

Matt
[/quote
Not sure I can get a job either. I applied for a really good job and during the interview they made reference that I had worked for my self most of my life. They asked how I would do in a political situation and I said it would be an adjustment. They asked my management style. I said tell me what you want done and get the h*## out of the way. Well I am still self employed. ;D

DMcCoy · August 31, 2016, 09:59:58 AM

Quote from: ozarkgem on August 31, 2016, 08:52:44 AM
Quote from: Kingcha on August 31, 2016, 08:41:58 AM
Quote from: DMcCoy on August 31, 2016, 08:15:31 AM
I have heard that the average length of self employment is 20 yrs. After that owners get cranky with all the constant BS they have to put up with.

I barely made 15 year. Lol I was in the restaurant business. Now I'm unemployable I've been told.

When I first got my mill I was planning/hoping to make some part time money. So far I'm just hobby sawing which is all right with me

Matt
[/quote
Not sure I can get a job either. I applied for a really good job and during the interview they made reference that I had worked for my self most of my life. They asked how I would do in a political situation and I said it would be an adjustment. They asked my management style. I said tell me what you want done and get the h*## out of the way. Well I am still self employed. ;D

Self employment has a way of changing a person's outlook, that is for sure. I tend to agree with being no longer hire-able. It is the lack of control I think, I'm not looking to get a job somewhere. I have to live with the consequences of my own stupid ideas but they are mine. Really obnoxious people I don't have to deal with which is something that is hard to put a price on. Having someone really appreciate the time and effort you put in and the word of mouth referrals are hard to beat as honest compliments.

Chop Shop · August 31, 2016, 03:43:49 PM

With every Tom, Dick and Harry wanting to grow a beard and be a sawmill operator, its going to get even tighter to make a buck.

Unless you have a sawmill dealership.

I predict there is going to be allot used orange sawmills for sale in five years.

ozarkgem · August 31, 2016, 05:08:48 PM

I am very comfortable with my decision. Re-leaved might be a better word. I will keep my mill and go in a different direction. I got to thinking about all the stuff I need to get to be able to sell quality lumber, kiln, buildings, planer, moulder, log yard and on and on. Not worth it. Keep it small and keep it all.