Circle vs Bandsaw mill

[slice107]

Looking at buying a circle or band sawmill. I have never run a circle or band sawmill and I got a chainsaw mill currently but I'm looking to increase production.it will mainly be used for cutting lumber like 2x4 and 1x4 and such..

Whats the price difference for circle vs band sawmill??

Whats faster??

How hard would it be to build a circle vs building a band sawmill??

[moodnacreek]

A circle sawmill is often compared to a w.m. style band sawmill. It should be compared to a wide band, carriage style sawmill.  Wood framed circle sawmill are a lot of work to set up properly. Steel framed almost as bad. Modular steel is the way to go. Or could be steel box beams on wheels. An older , steel mill is a lot of bang for the buck because today no one wants to work that hard; like spending a year setting up a real sawmill and then learning to saw and take care of everything.  But a circle mill can saw any wood [in it's capacity] even frozen and some what dirty, and do it faster, longer than small band. This because of the iron. More iron, more forgiving, more sawing. That thick, sinfull, wide tooth, wood wasting, horse power eating saw blade will cut logs!  And there are days when saving kerf are not important. But then if you have nice clean walnut and cherry to cut for yourself, then the w.m. style is for you.

[TKehl]

Circle mill is way cheaper.

Circle mill is way faster.

Downside is setup, not easily portable (yes there are exceptions), more HP, and wider kerf.

I would not build a circle mill.  There are tons of them out there for $400-4k and that sometimes includes an engine.  

How long to build a band mill?  2 weeks to 2 decades+, depending on your skill and dedication.  The market has gotten to the point it is hard to justify building a basic band mill if you consider your time to have value.  Though some enjoy the challenge.   ;)  Quite a few build threads on the forum for your browsing pleasure.  

[slice107]

In my area no one wants to sell there circle mills..Another thing I forgot to ask is space.. How much more space does a circle mill take vs a bandsaw mill??

Portable doesn't really matter to me. If I make/buy a mill its going to stay in the same spot for 5+ years anyways.. If I need portable ill use the chainsaw mill.

I seen things but I'm not sure what they are called. Like a bunch of saw blades beside each other. Kinda like an edger or maybe a gang edger?? What is the proper name for them?

[longtime lurker]

Everyone overlooks the most basic principles here, but its worth stating:

A sawmill is a machine(s) that turns logs into lumber.
Logs are a variable resource
The difference between the right sawmill and the wrong sawmill is not the sawmill itself; it's how well a given mill works in the resource thats available.

There are plenty good business cases for both circles and bands or a mix of both, but everything comes back to suitability of the mill to handle the logs its fed.

[longtime lurker]

I seen things but I'm not sure what they are called. Like a bunch of saw blades beside each other. Kinda like an edger or maybe a gang edger?? What is the proper name for them?

That's a gangsaw. Or a multirip. Same thing different sizes mostly.
Multirips/ gang rips tend to be limited to about a 5" depth of cut, sometimes 6".
Gangsaws are bigger... may be bottom or top arbor but mostly now both because two small saws in a line one top one bottom allows you to run a thinner sawplate and that means less waste and less HP required to swing them.
Theres a third option called a framesaw or sash gang. Burns way less HP then circle gangs... it's a gangsaw that uses bands instead of circles.
All of the above will make lumber by the ton, but (theres some small sash gang exceptions like Logosol makes) the whole lot of them are power hogs. 
They aren't really a grade saw (although I've seen one used quite well to that effect).... they're for punching out a whole lot of set size boards at the lowest possible price and some of them will grade well and some of them will be trash.

As with everything sawmill - they're the right machine in the right resource

[Ianab]

Another thing I forgot to ask is space.. How much more space does a circle mill take vs a bandsaw mill??

Plan on at least twice the length. A small bandmill only need to be a few feet longer than largest log you want to saw. While a circle saw track needs to be over twice the log length, so the log can start clear of the blade, and finish clear of the blade. The track and carriage also needs to be a lot sturdier as you are moving a whole log up and down the track. Then add in the engine and drive components, planning on ~2 hp for each tooth on the blade means you can soon end up needing ~100 hp to drive the mill. So from the construction side, it would be a much bigger project. Rebuilding an old mill is the route most people take, as 95% of the work is already done. This also explains why there are very few new circle mills being made commercially. Just the sheer amount of steel and the big engine puts you over the cost of a fully automated band mill that can be moved easily. 

Other downside with the large circle mill is they aren't usually designed to operate (efficiently) alone. There are some models that can, but most want a crew of about 3 to really keep them humming. A small band saw benefits from having a helper, but you can run one solo. 

There is also the small circle mill, swing blade and dimension saws that use a smaller circle saw(s) on a carriage, similar to a band saw. Generally very light and portable, and able to handle oversize logs because the log sits on the ground, while the saw is moved on a carriage. Very efficient for producing dimensioned boards (like 2x4), especially if you have large logs. Lucas, Peterson and Turbo Saw are forum sponsors that make this style of mill. The mills are light enough to be portable because they only have to support the saw carriage not the log itself. 

And Lurker is 100% correct that it's about getting the right mill for YOUR situation. What you are sawing, where you are sawing, helpers, other machinery etc. 

[Woodpecker52]

Id go with bandmill. 

[dgdrls]

Welcome to the FF slice107.

what you plan to saw is important.
Another but perhaps less important consideration
is how near to a parts supply house or mill supplier
are you?? 

If you need or plan to saw lots of dimensional lumber
perhaps a circle style swing mill would work.
They can also be packed in a single P.U. and moved quite easily.

And you can add a slabber and sell that Alaska rig.

FF sponsors Lucas Mill > Home or Portable Sawmills - High Quality Sawmills to Cut Logs into Lumber

D

[moodnacreek]

Rule of thumb: sawmill length is 3 times the length of the carriage.  Carriage can be any length but 15' is average. 

[slice107]

Na the Alaskan will stay with me forever I think as the saw was my grandpas and I like milling with it. It's just not the most productive piece of equipment lol

Ill check out the swing blade mills a bit more but I do like the old school factor of a circle saw mill but when I'm milling its just me here most of the time. Seems like a swing blade mill or a band saw mill is kinda what I should be getting cause of my space requirement and lack of extra helpers.

I would love to get a old steam powered circle saw mill but I don't see that happening anytime...

[slice107]

Would a band saw be better for smaller logs then a swing blade mill?

[longtime lurker]

I'd give a qualified yes to bandmills being better with small logs than swingmills.

Its not the mill itself, its the dogging and turning system. Put a similar dogging and turning system under a swingmill and the bandmill would lose any advantage it had.

[donbj]

Looking at buying a circle or band sawmill. I have never run a circle or band sawmill and I got a chainsaw mill currently but I'm looking to increase production.it will mainly be used for cutting lumber like 2x4 and 1x4 and such..

Whats the price difference for circle vs band sawmill??

Whats faster??

How hard would it be to build a circle vs building a band sawmill??

If you're cutting 1x4's and 2x4's mainly I'd go bandmill. If you're cutting a decent sized log into 2x4 and 1x4 a significant portion of your log is in the sawdust pile due to the amount of cuts involved compounding kerf loss.
I watched an old circle mill cut a big log into 1x12's and good grief that 3/8" kerf it had threw out about half a board each pass! Something to keep in mind

[longtime lurker]

If you're cutting 1x4's and 2x4's mainly I'd go bandmill. If you're cutting a decent sized log into 2x4 and 1x4 a significant portion of your log is in the sawdust pile due to the amount of cuts involved compounding kerf loss.
I watched an old circle mill cut a big log into 1x12's and good grief that 3/8" kerf it had threw out about half a board each pass! Something to keep in mind

Yah but it cut them fast I'll bet.
Unless you're cutting valuable species or mostly inch or thinner fibre is cheaper than wages.
Logs are cheap... The business case for a circle mill is cut faster, make more lumber per man per day at a lower unit cost, and put the extra income to more logs. Rule number 3 of sawing for a living is "it ain't worth more because it took you longer to cut it'
Don't get me wrong I admire bandmills and can see the positives but outside walnut,cherry etc or a whack of 4/4 boards the kerf argument is far over stated... When you're cutting 4x2's and saving 1/8 if fibre a pass it takes 16" of flitch to pick up another board

[Ron Wenrich]

I think something that gets overlooked is the actual saw costs.  A circle saw has a lifetime of several millions of feet of lumber.  It most often has replaceable teeth, and it can be sharpened while it is still on the mill.  A band mill will require there to be an ample supply of sharp blades to carry out the sawing.  In addition, if you want to sharpen your own blades, you'll need the necessary equipment, which is another expense.  Otherwise you'll need to send them out and pay someone to sharpen them.  

In addition to swingblade mills, there are dimension mills that can handle big logs and small logs fairly well.  They usually have 2 blades and can give an edged board in a single pass.  They're also well suited for a single operator.  They don't require log turning, but I've always been an advocate of having the ability to turn logs.  Its all a matter of how you set things up.

[moodnacreek]

If you where to go to the trouble to set up an old circle mill today, don't do what they did.  Get that sawmill up high so the slabs and boards can slide down and accumulate on skids or waist high tables.  The traditional set up was for dragging logs along side and rolling up skid poles to carriage.  With a loader you load your log deck and everything is down hill after that.  The higher the better. A 2 story would be fantastic, you could walk underneath, wish I had done that everyday. One man with this set up can saw one day and stack for two, like I do.

[slice107]

That is smart. I was planning on making some kind of log deck anyways, so when I have people to help I can get them to help me load the deck and I could be busy for a couple days before the deck became empty again.

[longtime lurker]

I saw somewhere or other an old book on sawmill layouts and one had the mill set on the side of a hill.

Logs went in at the top, inclined dead deck to head saw, inclined skids to resaw, inclined skids to edger, etc etc until packs of lumber came out at the bottom of the slope.
Always remembered that one... It's kind of an irrelevancy in this day of hydraulic transfers and yet... simple and efficient is never irrelevant.
One day someone will buy me out and then I'll go build it.

Elevated construction has a lot of advantages. You can get under the thing to clean it. You can get under the thing to fix it. Waste removal gets easy. If you're stationary it's a one off cost that makes the rest of your life easy, and once you've had it you never want to be set on the floor again. If I was buying an LT70 to whack in a shed I'd be backing it up the ramp to its new home :D

[longtime lurker]

What you've got to do in all this is work out what your goals are: short/mid/long term

Are you going to sawmill to eat?

Now that one right there is one of the most important questions you'll ever face in any business. Theres a whole whack of difference between being a hobby sawyer, a part time sawyer, and having to sell wood (or a sawing service) to buy the kids new shoes. Forget circles vs bands, thats detail stuff. The big question is: Is this a commercial venture, or a hobby? Because even if you're thinking short term hobby/mid term commercial the equipment choices you make will be totally different.

Hobby or part time sawing is about low setup cost, and getting the most bang for your buck so you do get something done on weekends you chose to run it while not having too many $ tied up in something that sits idle much of the time.
Commercial sawing is about production, and making the most tons of wood at the lowest unit cost. (I'm ignoring the portable, sale of sawmill service, because you've said fixed. But theres a couple guys here make a living at being good operators that come to your place and saw your logs, and I suspect they have way less stress than me)
You also mentioned a steam powered mill. Yanno thats commercial of a different nature if you're in the right place.... people will pay to watch those things, and buy a pretty board as a memento on their way out the door.

But start at the beginning with what you aim to do with the thing.
Then look at what your log resource is
Only then can your really begin to look at whether you want circles or bands

[slice107]

Id probably be considered part time.. There isn't much hardwood lumber sold here and that's kinda what I want to get into.. But I would rather have more bang for my buck then higher production. As I'm in no rush sorta say to mill stuff.. Right now I'm just milling stuff out of my firewood pile with my chainsaw mill. But I would like to get a load of nicer logs once I get a bit more productive mill. I'm kinda thinking a swingblade mill would be my best bet but I can see it being a pita to get logs under it, and the price seems a bit high for me.

[SawyerTed]

I think someone said it earlier but it is worth saying again.  You've got to decide a few things first.  Figure out your goals then find a machine that gets you closest.  There will be compromises no matter what you choose unless you can buy a traditional circle sawmill, a band sawmill, a swing blade mill with a slabber, an edger and a resaw.

1.  What's the goal of your sawing and sawmill ownership?  How much sawing versus building or restoring do you want to do?  With a build or restoration of a sawmill you could potentially spend a lot of time before you saw the first board.  Much depends upon your skills and perseverance. You have got to be honest with yourself on these items.  There are good reasons to restore and setup a circle sawmill.  There are good reasons to buy a working band sawmill.  You have to figure out what you want.

2.  What kind of production do you want?  Is it 25 2x4s a day? 100? 500? Choose a machine that gets you closest to that goal.  Match the horsepower of the machine to that production.  Nothing is worse than buying a machine then finding out it won't perform as expected.  BTW don't expect manufacturers' claims of board feet per hour to be realistic in the field.

3.  Are you trying to hit a market niche?  Some wood products are easier with one type of machine or another.  Thick slabs cut from crotches or other irregular logs are probably easier cut on a bandmill or a dedicated slabber.  Really large logs are easier cut with a dedicated slabber or a swing blade mill. Are the logs you will saw high value?  Being able to see what's coming off the mill and adjusting your sawing is probably easier with a band sawmill or swing blade mill over a traditional circle saw.

4. What size are the majority of logs you will saw?  (See question 2 above)  No need to get a wide version of a mill if 18"-22" diameter logs are 85% or more of what you will saw.  No need to get a band sawmill if all you will see are 40" diameter logs.  

5.  How hard do you want to work handling logs, lumber and slabs?Hydraulics are your friend.  A young man may have the drive and muscle to handle logs, too much of it will eventually catch up with you.  Choose a machine and set up to make material handling easier.

These are just some of the important questions you have to answer in choosing a sawmill.  Starting with circle or band sawmill as the first question skips over several key decisions.

[Ianab]

Id probably be considered part time.. There isn't much hardwood lumber sold here and that's kinda what I want to get into.. But I would rather have more bang for my buck then higher production. As I'm in no rush sorta say to mill stuff.. Right now I'm just milling stuff out of my firewood pile with my chainsaw mill. But I would like to get a load of nicer logs once I get a bit more productive mill. I'm kinda thinking a swingblade mill would be my best bet but I can see it being a pita to get logs under it, and the price seems a bit high for me.

Yeah, price of a Swingblade is a bit more than most people want to spend on a hobby, but they are a machine that you can run commercially. Small manual band mills are much cheaper, work well, but wont produce enough in a day. Fine for a hobby sawyer, but tough to make a living. A fully automated band saw will produce, but cost of them is more than the swingblade.
Loading logs isn't really an issue if you get set up right. A log deck and bunks aren't included with most, but you have logs and a sawmill, so your first job can be to saw out some timbers to make a log deck and bunks. Once you are sorted there, then it's a matter of just loading the log on the deck using the skid steer etc, rolling it along into place over a little hinged or removable "bridge" that gets lifted out of the way. This keep the machinery away from the alloy mill rails etc. Small logs are better dogged in place, larger ones, gravity holds them in a notch in the bunks just fine. 
Also, keep an eye on the local "for sale" pages. Sometimes deals come up, someone retiring or upgrading a portable mill. Even if one needs some repairs, or even a new engine, if the price is right and you are good with the tools, it can be worth it. It's likely not the exact mill you are looking for, but close enough to make things work.