TSI and stand-thinning with forestry trailer w/winch and ATV

[wisconsitom]

Excellent comments, fellows.  First, to trapper...larch is weather-fast, to the same degree as cedar.  This is one of its great qualities.  It weathers to a handsome gray if unstained/sealed.  Many buildings in Europe have larch siding.  And yes, most barns in Wisconsin have larch (tamarack in this case) rafters, beams, and such.  I suggest you and I keep in touch.  Over the next 5-year period or so, I will be working to ramp up what I have going on there and yes, you and I may have the opportunity to do some cooperative venture of one sort or another.  Thanks!

At the risk of not seeming to be getting the message, let me assure you all that I do get it...by the time you've spent money on these homeowner-class tools, you could have saved up for a real tractor, etc.  I do get that, and in fact, before I'm finished, I may swing back in that direction, this being a slow process.  And I'm in a farming/logging area.  That's all that goes on around there and there are numerous old skidders, etc. for sale right around me.  Tractors too, obviously.

But...there's always a "but"....I have other uses in mind for a UTV (not ATV, even though I mentioned them, I've never cared for quads).  But I'm going to start a new thread to more fully flesh out what I now consider a possible good way to go.  Please see my new "Best workhorse UTV" thread.

Thanks,
tom

[mike_belben]

I hope ive not come off as trying to tell you what to do Tom.  My aim is to simply share my trials in hopes that it may help others take the best road for themselves.

 I dont know sxs specifically enough to be much use but will follow along on your other thread.  Small scale hobby forestry is pretty satisfying over the years to see it unfold season by season and i hope you share pics of your endeavors.

[wisconsitom]

You have been most helpful, Mike.  I always appreciate the good news...and the bad!  Brutal honesty is all I need.

And I agree...even these relatively small-scale operations are darn satisfying.  In my case, I'm more of a tree engineer-I planted all these trees that I will be sawing later-than a handyman with a welder.  I do hope to get a shop going up there soon though, and that will open up many more possibilities.  I can't fabricate much right now, but that should improve over time, when I get a shed put up at that location.  

Thanks for following along,
tom

[TKehl]

For the same money but higher production, I'd recommend getting a small used iron mule type forwarder, older 4x4 tractor around 30 hp and small, and a 3point forestry winch and or log arch.

Run trails through the woods where the iron mule can get within a few hundred yards of most of the property.  Use small tractor and winch to get in where you can't take the mule and pull to the trails.  Use the mule to move wood to mill.  Wood stays mostly off the ground and clean with minimal ground impact/erosion.

You will burn a lot of time running back and forth with ATV loads.  Yes it's doable, technically, but already undersized and from what I hear you plan to grow the operation...  Replacing centrifugal clutches isn't cheap...

Good tractors are less than UTV's, just they may not be new.  They may not be available locally, but regionally, they can be found.

UTV's won't turn as sharp as a tractor.  If you just want a UTV, look at a Kubota.  They are slow, but strong as they build them on the tractor drivetrains rather than oversized ATV drivetrains.  Most other UTVs and all ATVs will fatigue long before a tractor will.  My little Kubota B1550 tractor will fit on a 4x8' trailer and then pull that trailer (with 2' sidewalls) mounded with firewood and turn on a dime with the trailer.  It's smaller than a UTV.  Cost me $1500 and some new filters.  Neighbors Kubota UTV and UTVs at work won't turn near as sharp just by themselves and cost a lot more.

Iron mule + UTV and arch etc. also wouldn't be a bad combo.  

Buy once cry once.

[mike_belben]

I cant disagree.  My L175 was $1300, is cheap and simple to work on, tough as nails, pulls like a little tank and i can weld whatever junk on it i want without reserve.   Cutting brakes allow it to helicopter around in place at the end of a row. A zero turn that doesnt slip into the pond youre mowing around. 

[Puffergas]

This is my latest TSI machine. It is a cross between a skidder and a forwarder.





Articulated, 2wd, hydraulic winch, air cooled engine.

You can work anything in the woods, JUST PLAY SAFE! Watch for sticks coming your way.

[starmac]

Pretty neat rig there Puffergas.
A guy could do something like that with some of the old walk behind tractors, and I have seen them sell for near nothing at farm auctions, the last one I bought was an old allis, all iron, I think I gave 60 bucks for it and several implements, including a mower.

I do not remember the brand, but we had one when I was a kid that had steering clutches and brakes, it would be the berries for something like that on a small scale.

A guy could probably even fabricate a compensator on the trailer and some swivel bunks and have the trailer track in the same tracks as your power unit.
What are you using to load that thing with?

[mike_belben]

Pair of gravelys. 

[wisconsitom]

Cool rig, Puffergas.  And on that score..even though I may seem hell-bent on purchasing something newish...once I get my building up there, I will have much more opportunity to scrounge, fabricate, go to farm auctions. etc...

It is going to make life easier, although it itself is a large project to get through.  Thinking pole building with "office" area framed in.  But yeah, old stuff abounds in my area.  It's all farming and logging up there-nothing else-so plenty of old stuff around.

tom

[mike_belben]

If something lives long enough to be kept until its old, it was probably pretty good to begin with.

[starmac]

Thinking about it, it would have to be a pair to rig it up with a compensator  so it would track, the bunk would have to be over the tires, so it would not tilt one way or the other. Then there would be no place for the driver

[wisconsitom]

Somebody way up yonder...I think it was this thread...mentioned Polaris Brutus...and now that I've finally seen that rig, yes, exactly right-on for what I'd said.....diesel and hydrostatic.  Thanks.  that's another one for me to consider.  Probably a lot like Bobcat stuff I would think.  Same maker.  Same basic market.

tom

[Puffergas]

Thanks starmac and wisconsitom, my video skills need work but they might answer some of your questions.

Forwarder Skidder Crossover - YouTube

Self Log Loading - YouTube

First arch loading test - YouTube

Hoping to get back into it in the spring.

[starmac]

I like it, it looks like you put a lot of thought and work in it, but have something that works for you.

[wisconsitom]

Fellows, now that I've done more research, I've come to the conclusion that Iron Baltic makes a very nice forestry trailer, their IB1000 unit.  This Estonian company appears to be attempting to make inroads into the N. American market.

Does anyone know more about Iron Baltic?  Dealers, etc.?

Thanks,
tom

PS...just looked and perhaps one simply orders direct.  Not inexpensive!

[John Mc]

I had heard some good things about Iron Baltic several years ago. If I recall correctly, when I checked there were no US dealers, but there was one in Montreal (not far from me) I could have bought from.

Looking now, it seems the have a number of US dealers. Just glancing at a few dealer websites, most of them seem to be ATV and watersports dealers, so maybe they will not have what you want in stock. Still, it's worth checking. If you are not in a rush, they could probably get one on their next shipment. Probably worth checking a few dealers. Maybe you'll find one who will give you a deal if you offer to act as a reference for others shopping for similar equipment.

The specs seem very similar to the Woodland Mills T-Rex trailer (sold out of Canada, but they have some US warehouses - I believe one of them is in th eBuffalo, NY area. THey may have others). One difference I see is that IB offers the electric winch option, where with WM, you'd need to roll-your-own if you wanted to upgrade from the hand crank. Is there anything pushing you towards the IB vs the Woodland Mills? The T-Rex lists for $1599. What are you seeing for the IB unit?

I've seen both the Woodland Mills and the DR Power VersaTrailer in person. Of the two, the Woodland Mills product seemed to have superior construction (The DR was corroded right through the galvanizing just from sitting on the lot of the factory store, and had at least one awful-looking weld.) DR's price is $800 higher than a similarly-equipped Woodland Mills trailer. However, DR frequently offers sales which drop the price by $200. DR also offers free shipping, while Woodland Mills is $300 flat rate. Long story short: when you include shipping costs, you can save $300 and get a better trailer from Woodland Mills as compared to DR's sale-price on the VersaTrailer.

Not having seen Iron Baltic IB 1000 I can't comment on construction compared to the other two. Their online prices are higher, but maybe the construction justifies it? hard to say.

I will say that all of these seem like a decent match size & weight wise to pull behind a UTV. If you get a tractor, you can still use them, but most compact tractor's are capable of hauling much more.

[wisconsitom]

Thanks John.  I agree-the Wodland Mills is likely the better N. American product, and price-wise, the IB unit may just be too sky-high.  I did a quick calc but got interrupted by another call....but I think the number, with crane and electric hoist (and grapple....must charge high $$ for that grapple!) add up to extremely high cost, maybe $4000 for the darn thing.  If you want the dump box...that's only another 2 grand!  Likewise for each attachment...that you would want to be efficient...not much of anything on that IB website for less than two thousand dollars!

Not in a hurry, so i'll find something at reasonable cost.  I do wish to end up with electric winch.  I used to direct lots of large limbs down with arborist's bullrope.  I got good at suspending a two-ton log on the end of that rope while swinging it into position in a pile with other hand.  I see guys doing similar on videos with electric winches with remote controls.  That's the kind of setup I want.  Something where I can really and truly work alone.

Thanks again.

tom

[Puffergas]

This is a fun video to watch. I learned something by watching it again.

Play it again Sam:
Time to collect firewood - YouTube

[wisconsitom]

Great stuff, Puffergas.  The guy has his system worked out.  What is the generic term for those tow-motors like is being used by this fellow?

I think I am going to be resigned to a manual winch setup or rigging up my own motor-driven setup.  That Iron Baltic stuff is way too high-priced. I did talk to rep who explained it is largely due to shipping from Estonia to N. America.

I wish this small-scale forestry revolution that is definitely taking place in Europe would spread more to N. America.  So much great equip. and tech available there....and largely not here.

tom

[Puffergas]

Great stuff, Puffergas.  The guy has his system worked out.  What is the generic term for those tow-motors like is being used by this fellow?

I think I am going to be resigned to a manual winch setup or rigging up my own motor-driven setup.  That Iron Baltic stuff is way too high-priced. I did talk to rep who explained it is largely due to shipping from Estonia to N. America.

I wish this small-scale forestry revolution that is definitely taking place in Europe would spread more to N. America.  So much great equip. and tech available there....and largely not here.

tom

I wish I knew the generic term for the tracked walk in front tow motors. Maybe somebody can help us out.
I liked the pulley-grab thing on the end of the cable! I never noticed that before. Good thing you started this topic.
Small scale TSI technology is my passion and I have no idea why there is no interest in this technology over on this side of the pond.

[John Mc]

Great stuff, Puffergas. The guy has his system worked out. What is the generic term for those tow-motors like is being used by this fellow?

I've heard it referred to as an Iron Horse. I could swear I've seen an advertisement for one somewhere (I thought perhaps Northern Woodlands magazine, but there is nothing in the current issue.) I'm thinking maybe Jonsered used to make them?

Here's a video I found of one:
How to Use an Iron Horse - YouTube

And another with a tag-along trailer to carry the read end of the logs:
Ironhorse winching logs. Sustainable forestry. [url=http://www.blueberryhillsfarm.ca]Blueberry Hills Farm ? Self sustaining homestead ? gardens, pigs, chickens and bees. - YouTube[/url]

[John Mc]

Yep - Jonsered was at least one manufacturer of the Iron horse. I'm not sure what happened to it now that Jonsered is being rolled into Redmax. There is one for sale on eBAy in Michigan - buy-it-now price of $9500

Found a brochure:

[thecfarm]

I've only seen them things at a show.

[wisconsitom]

Thanks guys.  Yup...iron horse is it.  Quite a nice system.  I'm still going to buy a UTV-darn it-for all the other reasons I want one of them....but good call showing us this method.

I very likely am going to end up with a Woodland Mills T-Rex trailer, to which I will likely add my own electric winch.  Without that along with the remote control, it really takes 2 people to load/unload many large, long, heavy objects safely and securely.  But with the electric and remote, one can direct a suspended item into place while dropping it into pile. Just like I used to do when roping large limbs out of trees we were removing and then swinging limb onto pile.

I too wish more of this small-scale logging/TSI would blossom here as in Europe, etc.  I actually think it will.  It just makes too much sense.  Talking to my sons, I said that failing that, let's say I wanted to do a little thinning on my property.....I'd have the same machine sitting there for my 18 acres as would the guy with 1800 acres to work!  It would be the same skidder, forwarder, etc....and would be out of scale with the job.  Meanwhile, this smaller, versatile, and handy equipment is right in scale with the work to be done at this stage.

When my pine, spruce and larch are full-grown trees....and if any get harvested.....any number of commercial loggers...thick as hair on a dog in my area.....will possibly get the job.  Everything I'm talking about here is for the years leading up to that event.

Thanks much.
tom

[John Mc]

There seems to be a push for smaller-scale and "light-on-the-land" equipment in my area. There is a lot of interest on the part of private landowners to have that type of equipment used on their land (not necessarily UTV-scale, but mini-forwarders or tractors with forwarding trailers).

As long as they realize that it's not going to be as productive as the big stuff, so they may end up paying more to have that type of equipment used (the trade-off being less of an impact on their forest), there may be enough demand to cause more people in the profession to start considering that kind of equipment.

I know there are a lot of landowners in my area who would like small forwarding trailers and similar small-scale equipment for their own "do-it-yourself" work, but they just can justify the cost for what little they would use it. The Metavic M95 forwarding trailer I bought used costs far more than I could justify new. It's too small for commercial work, but too expensive for typical individual landowner use (for just a bit more, I could get a larger size that starts to interest someone in the business). I'd NEVER have bought one new - just too expensive. I really couldn't justify the used price either (like new condition, 60% of new price), but I'll make it work.

I've often wondered if some sort of landowner cooperative to own equipment as a group would make sense. The problem is that you've always got that one person in the group who is hard on equipment.