TSI and stand-thinning with forestry trailer w/winch and ATV

[TKehl]

When my pine, spruce and larch are full-grown trees....and if any get harvested.....any number of commercial loggers...thick as hair on a dog in my area.....will possibly get the job.

That makes a big difference in my earlier opinion.  I was more concerned you'd quickly outgrow the UTV.  Learning more, it makes sense.  


Small scale TSI equipment would be nice.  There needs to be a market for the material first though!  I'll mill small short stuff.  However, most of what I cut will be under 6" and bigger stuff rarely has a straight section longer than 6' or is often rotten.  LOW LOW grade.  

We have no pulp market in my area.  The only market for this stuff is firewood.  (Maybe some of it makes rustic furniture, but one can only go so far with that.)  Even then, 60-70% of what I cut isn't  saleable as no one will buy Elm as firewood.  So we burn Elm for our house and sell the better stuff.  ;D  Need to build a wood fired kiln...  ;)

[wisconsitom]

I once took a look at small forwarders.  OMG!  Such cool stuff!  So utterly unaffordable!  I am learning, and agree much with comments above.  Specifically, how it is impossible to justify the real good stuff for small-scale ops.

I would simply LOVE one of these forwarding trailers with knuckleboom!  I greatly enjoy operating such loaders, having done so on a much larger scale (with huge, urban tree removals) for decades, atop the high seat on a Prentice loader.

But.....there's always a "but".....I am never going to be able to afford outright...or justify the necessary financing...that it would take to have the fancy stuff.  I am going to be a slow-poke, with slow equipment, doing slow, hopefully careful work.  My initial harvest in larch will be rot-free, straight-grained stuff.  But small.  I will always be leaving the biggest and best trees to keep growing.  We in fact intend legacy trees on that site.....stuff to grow as long as it can, all the while sheltering new recruits of varying species that are already present in my woods.  All the coniferous species we planted in the plantation area were matched for longevity.  Thus, we did not plant tamaracks, even though I love that tree.  It "only" has a lifespan of roughly 100 years.  The hybrid larch we did plant, meanwhile, has a lifespan measured in multiple centuries.  There are enormous old trees in Europe.  Likewise, the white and red pines and the Norway spruce we planted are very long-lived.

So that's a bit more about my intended operation.  We've also got extensive white-cedar, and that wood can be valuable.  But I would only ever be thinning in that stuff-regeneration is just too precarious to eliminate stands...so not a lot going there.  Maybe a few posts and poles, but I won't be sawing up the cedar.  Anything I could make from that, I can better make with the larch, which will be young stock and devoid of heart rot.

Finally, I will soon have a range of hybrid aspen clones testing on my farm.  Because of extremely fast growth of these plants, I may be cutting and dealing with aspen before I'm through.  There is already a bit of trembling aspen in my swamp, as well as quite a bit of balsam poplar, really a type of aspen (rhizomatous root system).  But these other, soon-to-be-installed hybrid entities will be their own thing, used for testing, but quite quickly forming clonal groves on my property.  Then, I can harvest and saw up some of those......for whatever!

I have no illusions about "market".  At most, we think perhaps we could interest someone in larch siding, maybe decking boards, greenhouse-building material for organic growers, Amish folks who know of and like larch wood for a variety of uses....and a few more I've got up my sleeve.  But above all of that, this is to be a "hobby" for a guy going into retirement that knows he is going to need a lot to do!  And who will enjoy doing it.  All the while making improvements to the site.  If one dollar ends up in my pocket because of anything I do there, I will be surprised.

On the other hand-working with not one but two national/international groups, I may have the opportunity to create prototypes of items we might make out of either of these hybrid entities.....to be used as samples or examples of what is possible.  So, on that score, I may be able to produce some nice aspen paneling with wavy, figured grain.  Some folks like that kind of stuff.  Likewise, I may be able to showcase the marvelous attributes of that larch wood.  Such great stuff-useful across a wide range of applications.  Time will tell on this score.  But for sure, I will want to have the ability to cut and process material for our own various uses.

Thanks,
tom

[Puffergas]

About 20 years ago I read an article about someone that would inject dye into growing popular, or something, to give lumber a special look. Maybe the opposite of maple syrup. I think he had a patent on it or was trying. Your writings reminded me of that.

[John Mc]

I very likely am going to end up with a Woodland Mills T-Rex trailer, to which I will likely add my own electric winch.

See if you can test the wireless remote control before buying. Some of them have a significant delay between pressing the button and actually doing what you selected. The wireless remote sold with the Harbor Freight 2500# Badlands winch is notorious for this (the remote also has a reputation for failing and for not having replacements available). FWIW, that 2500# badlands winch also has some design issues. there's a good reason it's their price-leader. Their 3500# winch is much better designed, and significantly faster (though you'll need to be very careful about not pulling more than your boom can take - the boom is rated for 450#, if I recall). I'm not pushing that particular brand, just wanted to give you a heads up.

[wisconsitom]

Thanks John Mc.  I'm going to make a note of that winch info.  Very helpful.

tom

PS...saw where there's a US (or Canadian-can't remember) manufacturer now offering a forestry trailer w/knuckleboom loader for "just" $7000.  Geared towards scale I want to be on....can't remember the name of co.....but I thought that not too unreasonable for someone that can afford it.  Maybe dig up link later.

[wisconsitom]

Just re-looked and it's an ebay seller.  But...this is interesting...he or she is in Wausau, WI!  That's quite near me and even closer to my farm.  Evidently this outfit is making a range of sizes of forestry trailer with boom/grapple.  So we do indeed now have domestic production of exactly the small-scale forestry equipment we're talking about here.  

Still well out of my price range, but good to see this happening.  I don't know what the name of the outfit is, and tried to contact, but got bogged down in ebay's hoops.  No contact made yet.  "Gloriago-35" is seller name on ebay.  Look like nice units.

tom

[maple flats]

Check for an old Jonsered Iron Horse, or new. That with their log trailer will do well, similar to the tracked skidder puller in the video above.
Another thought. For about 25 years I did a fair amount of small scale logging, for my own use using a little 20 HP Ford 4x4 compact diesel tractor. I welded up a frame to help push brush up and over the driver. For the first 15 years or so I just used a short chain attached to a drawbar on the 3 point arms. I had to be careful not to lift the arms too high or the front end would come up. To help that I made a weight box out of a 3.5' long piece of railroad rail and with the rail mounted so the base attached to the front weight bracket I welded the ends closed and when I needed more weight, I added a bunch of cast iron window weights on too. After about 15 years I bought a 3 point hitch log arch. It had a space of about 23" between the sides of the arch. I then would back up to where the arch was over the log and I hooked a chain around the log and up to the arch. On heavy logs I also used a short chain that ran from the underside of the log, hooked to the lift chain and it then hooked to the fixed draw bar on the tractor so the tractor would not drive out from over the log. Doing it that way the front only needed the original 5 suitcase weights (33#) each and the front only rose a inch or 2 then that under chain stopped it. With that I could pull out logs that were 23-24" at the butt and up to about 20' long, if bigger I pulled from the small end. My limiting factor was the forest floor, if dry it went well, if wet, not so much. The best was frozen ground with little or no snow. Much of my woods tends to be wet (about 50%)

[maple flats]

Oh, after 25 years I bought two new ways, first an 8000# excavator, far better in wet ground, lots of lift and I could drag and steer the pulled load by swinging the cab, but travel speed was only .7 MPH at full speed.(but my woodlot is only 15 acres) I also bought a 36 HP tractor, 4x4 with cab and hydrostatic drive, much better except in the wetter spots. On that if doing firewood I more often tend to either buck the log and fill the loader bucket or I sometimes cut the log into about 105" lengths (I cut firewood to 21" for my evaporator, thus 5 pieces from 105"). Then I take off the bucket and quick attach the 4' forks. With that I can carry several logs on the forks, far more wood than would fit in the bucket. I fill the forks and use a ratchet strap to hold them on. With that, I need to add the roughly 2000# weight box on the 3 point arms or the front is carrying too much weight.

[wisconsitom]

Thanks maple flats.  I mentioned the iron horse, either in this thread or another I've got running here.  I like those things and in fact, you are exactly right...I could do what I need to do with nothing more than an iron horse and a good forwarding trailer.  In terms of forest and plantation improvement that is.......

But somewhere around here...I don't blame folks for not seeing everything I've written....I mention that for a host of reasons not having to do directly with small-scale logging, I intend to purchase some sort of UTV to do my lugging.  I'd prefer not to revisit the host of posts explaining to me that a tractor is what I really need.  Many have pointed that out.....and I already want a tractor some day.  But......

.....I am set on a powerful UTV, preferably one with diesel in it and hydrostatic transmission.  I'd love a tractor.  But it's one thing at a time.

Thanks,
tom

PS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

[TKehl]

PS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

Nah, get a 20 or 40' shipping container set for valuables and a portable shed for a cabin.  Reasonable $ and up quick.  Easy to sell to if you decide to upgrade.  Normally I'd recommend an old camper.  Fine in WI in the summer, but not in winter.  Brrrrr....

Unless you plan to live there full time, just go with gallon jugs of water and a composting toilet. ;)

[47sawdust]

wisconsitom,
I've never seen a post on here that didn't wander from the original subject matter.It can be a little frustrating but most of us suffer some form of Attention deficit disorder so don't take it personally.Must be from sawdust,diesel smoke and chainsaw exhaust ;D

[gaproperty]

I once took a look at small forwarders.  OMG!  Such cool stuff!  So utterly unaffordable!  I am learning, and agree much with comments above.  Specifically, how it is impossible to justify the real good stuff for small-scale ops.

I would simply LOVE one of these forwarding trailers with knuckleboom!  I greatly enjoy operating such loaders, having done so on a much larger scale (with huge, urban tree removals) for decades, atop the high seat on a Prentice loader.

But.....there's always a "but".....I am never going to be able to afford outright...or justify the necessary financing...that it would take to have the fancy stuff.  I am going to be a slow-poke, with slow equipment, doing slow, hopefully careful work.  My initial harvest in larch will be rot-free, straight-grained stuff.  But small.  I will always be leaving the biggest and best trees to keep growing.  We in fact intend legacy trees on that site.....stuff to grow as long as it can, all the while sheltering new recruits of varying species that are already present in my woods.  All the coniferous species we planted in the plantation area were matched for longevity.  Thus, we did not plant tamaracks, even though I love that tree.  It "only" has a lifespan of roughly 100 years.  The hybrid larch we did plant, meanwhile, has a lifespan measured in multiple centuries.  There are enormous old trees in Europe.  Likewise, the white and red pines and the Norway spruce we planted are very long-lived.

So that's a bit more about my intended operation.  We've also got extensive white-cedar, and that wood can be valuable.  But I would only ever be thinning in that stuff-regeneration is just too precarious to eliminate stands...so not a lot going there.  Maybe a few posts and poles, but I won't be sawing up the cedar.  Anything I could make from that, I can better make with the larch, which will be young stock and devoid of heart rot.

Finally, I will soon have a range of hybrid aspen clones testing on my farm.  Because of extremely fast growth of these plants, I may be cutting and dealing with aspen before I'm through.  There is already a bit of trembling aspen in my swamp, as well as quite a bit of balsam poplar, really a type of aspen (rhizomatous root system).  But these other, soon-to-be-installed hybrid entities will be their own thing, used for testing, but quite quickly forming clonal groves on my property.  Then, I can harvest and saw up some of those......for whatever!

I have no illusions about "market".  At most, we think perhaps we could interest someone in larch siding, maybe decking boards, greenhouse-building material for organic growers, Amish folks who know of and like larch wood for a variety of uses....and a few more I've got up my sleeve.  But above all of that, this is to be a "hobby" for a guy going into retirement that knows he is going to need a lot to do!  And who will enjoy doing it.  All the while making improvements to the site.  If one dollar ends up in my pocket because of anything I do there, I will be surprised.

On the other hand-working with not one but two national/international groups, I may have the opportunity to create prototypes of items we might make out of either of these hybrid entities.....to be used as samples or examples of what is possible.  So, on that score, I may be able to produce some nice aspen paneling with wavy, figured grain.  Some folks like that kind of stuff.  Likewise, I may be able to showcase the marvelous attributes of that larch wood.  Such great stuff-useful across a wide range of applications.  Time will tell on this score.  But for sure, I will want to have the ability to cut and process material for our own various uses.

Thanks,
tom

You are kinda in the same boat as me.  I logged with my father from 14 years old until I moved away for college and a career in information system. At the same time as my career,  I logged for fun on my days off. Not much money in small scale logging but it was a great hobby.  Now semi retired, I am doing more logging and I enjoy it.  My main goal is to enjoy it and my second goal is leave the forest better then when I started cutting.   It's about taking pride and enjoying what you do.  If I make a few bucks on the side all the better.  

[gaproperty]

Thanks maple flats.  I mentioned the iron horse, either in this thread or another I've got running here.  I like those things and in fact, you are exactly right...I could do what I need to do with nothing more than an iron horse and a good forwarding trailer.  In terms of forest and plantation improvement that is.......

But somewhere around here...I don't blame folks for not seeing everything I've written....I mention that for a host of reasons not having to do directly with small-scale logging, I intend to purchase some sort of UTV to do my lugging.  I'd prefer not to revisit the host of posts explaining to me that a tractor is what I really need.  Many have pointed that out.....and I already want a tractor some day.  But......

.....I am set on a powerful UTV, preferably one with diesel in it and hydrostatic transmission.  I'd love a tractor.  But it's one thing at a time.

Thanks,
tom

PS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

On most social media that I am aware off, there is to many people telling everybody what they need.  Some with good intentions and that is great but some is ill intended.  The important thing is you do it your way.  You gather the data, decide what and how you want to approach your work and go with that.  Doing it your way and doing it so you enjoy it is the most important thing.  Take care and good luck. 
Ray
lostcaper.ca
  

[wisconsitom]

Thanks all.  I'm having fun here.  No worries.

Guess I better re-visit John Deere.  For whatever reason, I'd written off the Gator.  But now..seeing the upgrades made in '18 and onward....the XUV 855D has caught my interest.  Great-looking rig, it's got the diesel-dazzler I'm after (no hydrostatic though) and is set up in the now-standard "hybrid" mode that I think actually makes good sense in all these makes.

Because I doubt I'll ever be able to afford Bobcat stuff, which is my favorite, I am pretty much looking at JD and Kubota.  Luckily, both well-represented by dealers in my area.

Thanks again,
tom

PS...getting back to that "hybrid" designation, these newer models-whether JD, Kubota, Bobcat, or any others.....are full of plastic, which I don't like.  But at the same time, they are full of plastic, which I like!  By which I mean, with a lot of this newer stuff, I miss "the iron", but I also think they are making improvements to these units with each iteration.  I do hope though to get one without much in the way of electronics.  Just won't be needing fancy read-outs and 20 different functions on my UTV dashboard!

[upnut]

If and when you do get around to looking at winches, I can recommend getting one with the synthetic rope instead of steel cable. We had lots of trouble with steel cable spooling out on its own and causing tangling issues. Switching over to synthetic rope was a huge improvement, much better to work with. Also, our #3500 utv winches from TSC free spool out easily down to about 25 degrees, below that you have to power spool out which becomes a slow process. Good luck!

Scott B.

[gaproperty]

If and when you do get around to looking at winches, I can recommend getting one with the synthetic rope instead of steel cable. We had lots of trouble with steel cable spooling out on its own and causing tangling issues. Switching over to synthetic rope was a huge improvement, much better to work with. Also, our #3500 utv winches from TSC free spool out easily down to about 25 degrees, below that you have to power spool out which becomes a slow process. Good luck!

Scott B.

Do you have problems with the rope fraying or cutting?  I have a winch with steal cable and cable kinks when ran though a pulley, hard on hands etc. 

[gaproperty]

PS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

Nah, get a 20 or 40' shipping container set for valuables and a portable shed for a cabin.  Reasonable $ and up quick.  Easy to sell to if you decide to upgrade.  Normally I'd recommend an old camper.  Fine in WI in the summer, but not in winter.  Brrrrr....

Unless you plan to live there full time, just go with gallon jugs of water and a composting toilet. ;)

Awesome advice.  There are lots of ways of doing things that work and that you are not spending a fortune on.

[upnut]

gaproperty- The outside is fuzzy on the first twenty feet or so, which is the part seeing the most abuse. I try to always make straight-line pulls to avoid rubbing against other trees and debris, saves battery power and breakage issues. Always make sure there is no possibility of contact with the chainsaw! The steel cable acted like a coil spring unspooling itself at the worst times and then tangling up the winch. The synthetic rope lays flat on the spool and stays put. Had to upgrade anchor equipment, the rope has been stout.



 

 

Scott B.

[wisconsitom]

Appreciate the winch advice, upnut.  I've been seeing that rope type on videos.  Thanks.

tom

[gaproperty]

Hi Tom,

I know nothing about ATV's, but I did years of commercial thinning of softwood stands with a horse, so I thought I'd add my two cents.

The horse was ideal for precision thinning, as I imagine the ATV would be, but there were drawbacks. On long skids pulling one log at a time is extremely inefficient, and trying to pile logs in the yard with a rope and pulley is even more so.

What worked best for me was hot yarding bunches of logs along or near trails, forwarding with a 4wd tractor with winch, and piling the wood with the same tractor (after bolting on forks)

I have hand-loaded logs on scoots and woods trailers and found it to be dangerous and time-consuming. I would also suggest you look into what you can and can't do with your larch. The larch here in NH  is of very limited use.

Anyway, I wish you the best on your project. Very few things in life match a good day in the woods.

You summed it up nicely and you are speaking through experience.  

[gaproperty]

Efficient Small Scale Firewood Harvest Method.
Every situation is different and it takes some experience to estimate what is the best harvest method. I cut 30 cords per years so my operations is small scale.  Here is what I found.  

I use my ATV to get into the woods to cut and haul 20 percent of a cord short distances (300 yards or so).  I like using my ATV on steep terrain because it has more control then my tractor with a heavy trailer load pushing me down steep slopes.  An  ATV is efficient for short hauls or when there is not enough wood to justify putting a bigger trail in for my Kubota tractor.  

In my current situation, I am cutting firewood about 1/2 mile up a logging trail. That's a long haul for an ATV size load. If I use my tractor, there are some steep slopes which is scary to navigate.  Given the situation, I plan my harvest with safety as a priority. In this situation,  I sometimes leave my tractor and trailer and wood splitter at the landing at the bottom of the steep hill.  I take my ATV and ATV trailer up the steep hill and collect the un-split firewood length peaces.  I haul these ATV loads to the landing at the bottom of hill where my Kubota tractor, trailer and wood splitter sits.  I move the wood from the atv trailer to the splitter then off the splitter directly into the back of the trailer that my Kubota hauls. After about 4 trips up and down the hill with my ATV, there is 3/4 of a cord of wood in the logging trailer that is pulled by my Kubota tractor.  Some customers are close enough to take this 3/4 cord load directory to their woodshed.  


Every situation is different.  When dealing with firewood, the less you have to handle the wood the more efficient your process.  It takes an old fat guy like me about 1 to 1.5 hours every time I have to handle a cord of firewood. A comical guy up the road claims you have to handle firewood so many times it's wore out by the time you get it to the stove.  

I have about 27 logging videos in a playlist on my youtube channel.  You can get a better understand by watching such videos.  Here is a link to my logging videos.  

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRIjtRXGGkDDWHdqaYSaO0NzmnuLe_cOw

[wisconsitom]

Didn't think I'd be writing this but folks, I'm looking seriously at Kubota RTV X1140!  Didn't think I wanted a "4-seater" but the box-to-seating conversion is just so slick....and the bed, when in 2-seat mode so large-that I now think this is the way for me to go.  Yes, we want to take family rides now and then, but with gramps (me) still being able to get work done.  I believe that such a unit would suit both purposes well, on into the foreseeable future.

This would be my "tractor" and our ride unit.  I think it a reasonable compromise.

Was also interested to learn of wide price range at dealers for new unit.  Many thousands of dollars of difference can be found in MSRP at various vendors.  One in Kansas has such a unit for "just" $14900 or thereabouts.  That's a good deal, comparatively-speaking.  Of course, I'm not in Kansas!

tom

[wisconsitom]

"Missed out" on an '84 Ford Bronco II that showed up on Craig's list.  Was west coast unit and non-rusty.  Would have been quite good for intended purpose, but such items go quickly.  Was snowy, icy, rainy, crappy weekend to try and get out to see anything.  Not road-safe.

I had '89 and was great vehicle, one of best I've owned.  Oh well, back to the drawing board.

 Son and I also see where one can find many old Suzuki Samurais available, also on the west coast.  One could order, have trailered here, modify to suit needs, and still likely have less $$ spent than if purchasing new fancy UTV.  Yet I wonder....would Samurai (or what have you) really perform like a well-designed heavy-duty UTV?  My sense is that it would in some ways....and others, not so much.

Watched video comparing Mahindra mini-jeep (can't remember what they call the thing) and two UTV's...a Polaris Ranger and a Honda something-or-other.  The Mahindra could not do anything like what the two UTVs could do in mud, snow, and ice.  No comparison....the UTVs handled things much better than the heavy jeep-like unit with it's big, straight bumper right at ice-level and heavy weight.

tom

[TKehl]

It's always a tradeoff.  A UTV or ATV will do better in mud.  There are ways to make the Bronco/Sami better, but still not as good in mud as a a stock UTV in most cases.  

We don't get the snows you get, but here, can't really tell a difference.  More a function of how good the tires are.

I miss my 93 Explorer with a 4" lift.  Was a nice go anywhere rig.  

The other plus of UTVs is they are made for offroad.  Some Rangers/Explorers/Broncos etc. have skidplates.  Others don't and should be added.  Just another factor to be ready for offroad.

A local rancher used to run all his fence in an old 4x4 Ranger.  Still has it, but mostly he uses a UTV now.  His main reason is it is easier on his knees and hips to get in and out.

Just shocking how much they cost though.  $14,900 is more than I paid for all 4 vehicles in our "fleet" (2 minivans, 3/4 ton Suburban 4x4, F350 4x4) plus my little Kubota tractor.       

I guess if it lets you keep doing what you love longer though, it'd be worth it.     I always figured if I ended up in a wheelchair, I'd figure out how to strap myself to a Toro Dingo so I could still go out in the woods.    ;D

[wisconsitom]

Heh T, you and I are alike in that regard....we will be out in the woods one way or another!  I have likewise never spent as much money on any vehicle I've ever owned as that amount which I contemplate spending on a UTV.  Even my son's former Polaris Ranger cost more than the Toyota 4Runner  I drive every day.  In that regard, an old street unit has the obvious advantage.  Say for example, if I'd been able to score that old Bronco II for $4000, that would have been great deal and much, much less expensive than full-size UTV I seek.  The seller was asking $5000, a lot for an old rig, but I believe he/she was tapping into the collector's market with that old classic.  I love old Bronco II's but I would not have paid that price for it.

Then we sees lots of 80's and 90's Samurais for sale on the west coast, usually for right around 3-grand.  Not a bad deal per se...so long as unit is as advertised, but by the time one switched out the tires, installed winch, attempted to make a cargo bed out of the rear end of the thing....added whatever suspension parts it needed to enable one to actually go down a bumpy trail......I suspect you would have roughly equivalent amounts of $$ in either type of unit.  Talking to son again....said maybe the best option is the saving of pennies....to get what one really wants!  That would be the big Kubota unit.  RTV X1140.  I'd be done looking!

All Kubota and J. Deere units now feature full skid plating. With Kubota, you don't have the dick-around of paying still more for power steering, brush guard, hydrostatic, bedliner, power dump, etc.

tom