Another Honda problem child

sprucebunny · August 06, 2019, 06:11:45 PM

I have 13 hp horizontal on my log loader trailer. It has about 20 hours on it, electric start and recoil and has always been covered and started very well.
Except now, it won't.

It only turns about half a revolution before either battery or rope won't turn it.
Has oil in it but I didn't have a spark plug wrench with me to check that.

Should I look under the little valve cover ? Try to turn it over with plug out ?

I could really use some clues.

Thanks

charles mann · August 06, 2019, 06:17:09 PM

Pull the plug when you get a socket, spin it over a few times, at the same time, checking for spark. If its sparking, install the plug and try it again.
It sounds like its hydro or vapor locked.

Bruno of NH · August 06, 2019, 06:31:14 PM

Check for gas in the oil
I have a wood splitter with a Kohler if you move it 5ft with out the gas shut off it locks up with gas in the oil.

John Bartley · August 06, 2019, 06:45:50 PM

Quote from: Bruno of NH on August 06, 2019, 06:31:14 PM
Check for gas in the oil
I have a wood splitter with a Kohler if you move it 5ft with out the gas shut off it locks up with gas in the oil.

Yup, I agree. Honda GX motors are famous for this.

sprucebunny · August 06, 2019, 08:22:14 PM

I did check for gas in the oil but I'll change it when I get there again. It was not overfull or thin.

I was thinking maybe gas in the cylinder but if that, there would be gas in the oil ?

Thanks for the ideas

PS it hasn't been moved since the last time it ran last fall.

StimW · August 06, 2019, 10:24:38 PM

Being that new I would check for dirt dobber in exhaust if it has been sitting.
That engine has a centrifical compression release on the camshaft that opens valve at very low speed. I have seen them fail but with a lot more hours.
You can also remove the valve cover and check lifters. One might have come loose.
Spark is so hot on the Honda engines that it is hard to see.
I have a cheap spark tester from HF that works great.

charles mann · August 06, 2019, 10:37:37 PM

Quote from: StimW on August 06, 2019, 10:24:38 PM
Spark is so hot on the Honda engines that it is hard to see.
I have a cheap spark tester from HF that works great.

grabbing ahold of it is the cheapest method. :D

JoshNZ · August 06, 2019, 10:54:16 PM

Def sounds like the pot is full of oil, or something.

SunnyHillFarm · August 07, 2019, 06:16:35 AM

I had a vacuum pump motor in the sugar bush that had the flywheel / recoil area filled with twigs and nuts. It had the same symptoms. We did not see the debris until we pulled the recoil.

sprucebunny · August 07, 2019, 06:46:45 AM

Is there anything tricky or dangerous about unbolting the recoil mechanism ?

I've tried to google it but I don't have enough data to watch utube and lose my ( cellular ) connection about every 10 minutes. No one seems to have a writen explanation. Living in the electronic stone age, here.

Thanks

StimW · August 07, 2019, 07:35:10 AM

4 bolts #10 metric hold the rope starter on and it just comes off.
Then you will have the pulley that you can wrap a rope around.
Half dozen bolts will remove the shroud with pull starter still on it.

John Bartley · August 07, 2019, 08:13:09 AM

Quote from: sprucebunny on August 06, 2019, 08:22:14 PM
I did check for gas in the oil but I'll change it when I get there again. It was not overfull or thin.

I was thinking maybe gas in the cylinder but if that, there would be gas in the oil ?

The gas gets to the oil by travelling thru' the cylinder. The best, FIRST thing to do before taking anything apart is pull the spark plug, then COVER the hole with a rag (so you don't get sprayed with gas) and pull the rope. If nothing comes out, then it's time to pull the shroud around the flywheel and find out what's blocking it .... mouse house, etc.

sprucebunny · August 07, 2019, 11:35:46 AM

Thanks, John and Stim and everyone.

I won't be getting back up there for a couple of days.

kenfrommaine · August 07, 2019, 04:26:13 PM

Could be a valve that has dropped.?

luap · August 07, 2019, 05:23:52 PM

A recent thread on here had the same problem and turned out the magnets rusted on the fly wheel with no clearance for the coil.

sprucebunny · August 07, 2019, 05:43:59 PM

Yes, but that one wouldn't turn at all !

kenfrommaine · August 08, 2019, 09:03:37 AM

I have an 18hp duramax and had a valve keeper come un done, the motor would turn over about half a revolution in either direction. I got lucky and it only bent the valve stem, replaced the valve and keeper and it is fine now. Valves had gone out of adjustment, I was lucky it was not a catastrophic failure because this happened while it was running and in the middle of a cut,

.

Remle · August 08, 2019, 02:24:04 PM

Quote from: sprucebunny on August 07, 2019, 06:46:45 AM
Is there anything tricky or dangerous about unbolting the recoil mechanism ?

I've tried to google it but I don't have enough data to watch utube and lose my ( cellular ) connection about every 10 minutes. No one seems to have a writen explanation. Living in the electronic stone age, here.

Thanks

Nothing tricky or dangerous about unbolting the recoil mechanism, you may need to pull the rope to align the shafts when putting it back together. My thought is, their is a mouse nest under the cover and gets bound up on the starter gear as it turns. Also check over the wiring on the coil as they may have chewed it as well.

sprucebunny · August 20, 2019, 06:34:49 PM

OK. So I've done everything mentioned here. It turns over but very slowly and only about 2-3 revolutions.

There was no mouse nest, there is an air gap at the ignition coil, no gas in the cylinder, no signs on the spark plug but it doesn't turn fast or far enough to fire anyway.

I put a teaspoon of oil in the spark plug hole. Same thing several days later.

The motor is mated by a Lovejoy to a hydraulic pump. No disengagement. I thought maybe the pump had a problem, was low on oil. Has oil. It is the same every time whether I wait a couple minutes or days or not.

The valves are moving.

What should I look at next ??? My best guess is to uncouple it from the pump but that pretty much means removing the motor or the pump. Neither are easy.

Thanks

barbender · August 20, 2019, 07:08:52 PM

SB, I don't know how the decompression works on Honda motors- I use to have a Briggs 14.5 horse that would do like your's if the valves weren't set precisely. It would crank a little and just stop on the compression stroke. Clunk, clunk.

sprucebunny · August 20, 2019, 08:49:07 PM

That sounds like a good possibility ! I certainly have no idea where to look for or how to check that ..... Is that something that just suddenly goes bad ?

Someone mentioned that. I'll check for mud wasp nests in the exhaust, too.

sawguy21 · August 20, 2019, 09:26:31 PM

Remove the valve cover. With the valves set at the proper lash, Valve clearance: 0.15 ± 0.02 mm (IN) 0.20 ± 0.02 mm (EX), and the rewind and spark plug removed turn the pulley by hand and watch the rockers. One, I believe the exhaust, should bump monentarily as the piston comes up on the compression stroke. If not the motor needs to come off so the camshaft can be replaced. ACR failure is not common but it can happen.

JoshNZ · August 20, 2019, 09:43:05 PM

If you pull the plugs and it's still bound up you can rule out decompression being an issue?

Could be a bad crank bearing. Sounds like the motor needs to come out at this point whatever it is :(

luap · August 20, 2019, 09:57:37 PM

You have the love joy style coupling, just loosen the set screws and slide the coupling halves apart. It may require a little gentle tapping and penetrating oil. Probably only have to move the half on the engine shaft. Or you can just un bolt the pump adapter from the engine, no need to remove hoses if just checking rotational resistance of the pump. I would check the valve clearance as already suggested.

barbender · August 20, 2019, 10:41:10 PM

If it is coupled to a hydraulic system, make sure there isn't a function on the hydraulic valve that is activated, too. For instance, it could be trying to lift the loader as it's trying to start. I remember one time I was running a skid steer, and the engine was bogging bad, and the hydraulics were really slow. I checked that thing up and down, and was ready to load it up and bring it into the shop when I finally realized I had stepped on the auxiliary hydraulic pedal, and it had stuck engaged. With no hydraulic attachment on, it was just going over relief. Solution- disengage auxiliary pedal🙄😂 I would start with the simplest thing, SB. Pull the spark plug and crank it over. If it's still dragging, it's not related to compression or fuel (or at least, you have a problem in addition to that). But if it frees up without the plug, you know you can focus on the engine itself.