Spraying boards with borax solution

[steveklett]

Hello,

Introduction: I'm very new to sawmilling with just under 50 hours on my WM LT35. I'm located in Southwest Washington. I primarily saw red alder, bigleaf maple, bitter cherry, douglas fir and western hemlock - all trees from my land. I am air drying indoors and plan to build a so-called "DH Kiln" in the coming weeks. I'm trying to get these logs sawn and dried for use in my house that is currently under construction. I have about 3-4 months to get the lumber ready.


Recently I sawed some 20-26" bigleaf maple (Acer macrophyllum) and while the slabs were attractive, there was evidence of insect damage. I don't mind the small insect holes, but I noticed after a couple days there was sawdust/poop outside the holes which told me the critters are still in there. I was told by a local sawyer that I should spray the boards with a borax solution. Just dissolve in water, load into the sprayer and coat the boards. He went on to suggest that I do this to ALL the boards I saw, from all trees as a preventative measure.

I did as suggested, sprayed all my maple slabs and hopefully that will protect them. I then sprayed 10 or so 5/4 red alder (Alnus rubra) boards I had just sawn. The next day they were orange/red!
Here are some pics of the results, my questions will follow the images. (that is temporary stickering - I build stacks MUCH more precise)



Here I used a block plane to get an idea how deep the borax penetrated



OK, so I'm uncomfortable continuing to spray borax on the boards because I don't know if I'm ruining them. I'm also under self imposed pressure to get this right because I want to use this lumber in my house that is being built right now. Not for structural, but for cabinets, shelves, etc. I'm trying to learn not only how to saw correctly, but also how to prepare and treat the lumber so after it dries I have the best lumber possible.

Finally, my questions:

• Is spraying lumber with a borax solution something that sawyers do?
• Is there anything else I can do as a preventative measure to stop mold/rot and also kill and remaining bugs? (other than heated kiln)

Regards,
Steve

[charles mann]

I posted a similar question in the drying section. I was told to use a liquid borax solution. Evidently it needs a sec spraying. I got hm, checked wood and noticed fresh worm chewing dust a couple days ago. Im thinking of spraying with permethian, but not sure how that will affect the wood after it goes into a kiln in a month. 
I do need to put a sec fan bc yesterday i noticed a bit of mold starting, but we also had several days of 90+% humidity, rain and stagnate winds. 

[Ianab]

Spraying with borax is only a surface treatment. It needs pressure to penetrate, which isn't practical at home. But it does help as a preventative. When the adult bug comes along and lay's eggs they do this in a small crevice in the surface, which should be full of borate. Grub hatches out and its first meal is borax, and that's the end of that. What it wont do is kill bugs that are already boring inside the wood, so you want to spray ASAP after sawing, before any bugs find it.

Borax also helps with mold, although the best thing there is getting the wood dry. Airflow is your friend there.

[charles mann]

Spraying with borax is only a surface treatment. It needs pressure to penetrate, which isn't practical at home. But it does help as a preventative. When the adult bug comes along and lay's eggs they do this in a small crevice in the surface, which should be full of borate. Grub hatches out and its first meal is borax, and that's the end of that. What it wont do is kill bugs that are already boring inside the wood, so you want to spray ASAP after sawing, before any bugs find it.

Borax also helps with mold, although the best thing there is getting the wood dry. Airflow is your friend there.

For me, the grubs and such were already there. No big deal, after sawing but thought i got them all already while i was washing and stacking them. I dont want them expanding into the heart wood no more than they already were. 
The closest kiln is full till mid next month, which as soon as i get back from seeing my lil crayon eater while he is stateside, im gonna try and get the load in the kiln. 

[JoshNZ]

I had a similar problem with the first stack I milled years ago, found dust rings etc a few days after putting the stack away. I found a recipe online that copied tim-bor or something, I'll go find it. Was a mix of two borax based powders and dissolved in propylene glycol or ethylene glycol, one is radiator coolant the other is food safe (which I used), but they're both hydroscopic as heck and will take your solution in a lot deeper. I sprayed my boards down with this and restacked and several days later I was picking up dead bugs off the boards from beside their holes, haven't seen another bug or hole since.

It does specify you have to keep it dry in order for it to remain effective, rain washes it away. I didn't get any staining like that, it must be that particular species reacting.

I can't find the particular site right now but do a google search for us navy borax wood treatment recipe and have a look at a few of those.

[esteadle]

TimBor is the right product for this, I think. 

Read the label here: 
http://www.pestproducts.com/products/timbor-label.pdf

[DennisK]

When I lived in the PNW, they only cut furniture grade Alder in the spring, usually about a 6-8 week window. The rest of the year we logged firewood and pulp logs. 

[charles mann]

It was either timbor, bora-care or solubor i got and my wife did the 1:1 mix ratio and sprayed all the wood down and secured the tarp back to the trailer. That was done nearly 3 wks ago, and i checked the wood when i got hm, 6 days later, then tue, when i found the fresh wood dust. I ran out of time yesterday so my wife will spray the last 1 gal solution and hope it works till i can get it in the kiln. 

[JoshNZ]

Here's a couple of links here. I think the addition of a glycol is necessary for it to be effective

Home- made bora care & timbor

Wood Rot and Dry Rot Homemade wood treatments

[Don P]

Glycol is really only needed if the wood is already dry, it is a slow drying wetting agent. If you apply borate to green wood it is an unneccesary expense. Timbor and Solubor are the same chemical which can also be made by mixing boric acid and borax with water and heat. I use quite a bit of borate at the mill and on old houses I'm repairing. Multiple wet on wet coats is a good thing. Once a coat dries it forms a crystalline surface that prevents further coats from penetrating. I've used glycol to slow drying when doing many wet on wet applications and it is a good thing if doing that. I kept one old heavily infested log cabin wet for 30 days spraying it twice a day. Earlier today I inspected under an old gristmill and have written the owners that one of the things I'd like to do is apply borate to the heavy timbers underneath, there is a fair amount of powderpost damage under there. If the wood wasn't appealing enough the flying starch was like a flashing dinner sign.

Red alder was traditionally use in making dye. It contains salicin, another natural aspirin, and has been used as a ph indicator. I suspect that is what you did there.

[longtime lurker]

If you want to kill bugs already present with borax then drown them in it.  Best way is still a trough full of solution, boards into trough off mill, roll the board to flood any holes on the bottom side, then remove and stack. And not only are they totally surface treated but de-dusted too.

[Ianab]

Red alder was traditionally use in making dye. It contains salicin, another natural aspirin, and has been used as a ph indicator. I suspect that is what you did there.

Yes, I've sawn a little alder, and our stuff (European?) goes bright orange when fresh cut and first exposed to air. It's only a surface thing, and fades a lot over time. When you plane it up up after drying the wood will be the pale brown that you expect alder to be. So that is alder just being alder, not an effect from the borax. 

[farmfromkansas]

Seems if there are borers in the tree, as with ash logs, the bark should be sprayed with tempo, as that seems to be effective against borers.  When you saw the logs the tempo will be gone with the bark.  To protect from PPB, you need to spray or roll with solubor or timbor, right off the mill.

[JoshNZ]

Red alder was traditionally use in making dye. It contains salicin, another natural aspirin, and has been used as a ph indicator. I suspect that is what you did there.

Yes, I've sawn a little alder, and our stuff (European?) goes bright orange when fresh cut and first exposed to air. It's only a surface thing, and fades a lot over time. When you plane it up up after drying the wood will be the pale brown that you expect alder to be. So that is alder just being alder, not an effect from the borax.

On that note @Ianab not to hijack a thread but not worthwhile starting a new one...
Do you think what I've got here is alder? I was told it was elm by the owner who wouldn't know, to be fair. It went carrot orange the day after sawing, really like a carrot. It's settled into a redish tone now


 

 

[Ianab]

Sure looks like Alder from the colour of the fresh cuts, and the bark looks right too. 

I think the common ones we have in NZ are Black Alder from Europe, so it probably reacts slightly different shades to the Nth American ones. 

[JoshNZ]

Why can't we take a slither of wood off trees, put them under a 1000x microscope and read the label on the cells  ???

[Ianab]

Why can't we take a slither of wood off trees, put them under a 1000x microscope and read the label on the cells  ???

Well, looking at the end grain under a magnifying glass is one of the methods of ID-ing wood. But chances are it will only tell you "Alnus species".If you can look at the bark, flowers, leaves etc then you can probably work out which exact species. 
Getting exact IDs from online pictures is pretty hit and miss, unless it's fairly common and got some distinctive feature, like the alder colour change trick. 

[High_Water]

So I'm still a little confused about borax solutions and boric acid. I've seen the recipes call for Borax and boric acid, but also say that Borax is just boric acid crystals.

I'll cut to the chase, I plan to spray green wood with no glycol, can I just dissolve borax in water, if so what ratio?

And I almost hate to ask, but is there something better/cheaper than borax in water with still only 2 or 3 ingredients?

[Ianab]

I think that if you use the borax + boric acid recipe you get the highest amount of actual borate dissolved in your water. 

If you use plain borax, basically dissolve as much as you can in warm water. Eventually you get to a saturated solution where the water cant hold any more. That's what you want.

When the solution cools off you may see new crystals forming in the bottom. That means you had a good concentrated solution.

[JoshNZ]

I think if I ever did it again I'd figure out what full saturation is by way of measures of each ingredient, then back it off some. I found the saturated solution hard to work with, ended up going thick/crystally as it cooled off and blocked sprayer jet.

[Don P]

Solubor is stable to around 40°F in a 10% solution (1 lb/gallon of water). It crystallizes pretty rapidly as a 15% solution at about 70°F or below (1.5 lbs/gal).
I mix in a plastic pail and then pour through a paint filter into a sprayer. If you're spraying use it all and clean the sprayer well.

[Old Greenhorn]

I got my first 5# bag of solubor and spent a good part of my day pulling apart my pine limber stack, spraying the boards, and re-stacking. I hate working with chemicals. I did this all backwards and read all the MSDS sheets after I was done to see what I was dealing with. Now I am really confused. First, there is very little hazard working with solubor unless you are pregnant of eat a few ounces of it. It is sold as an organic fertilizer, with no mention of killing bugs. Now Timbor (same hazards) and SAME chemical name is sold as a pesticide. I don't understand this at all, so I am obviously missing something.
 What I did learn was that you (I) really need to heat the water before mixing. I mixed it yesterday with water at about 65° and it didn't all dissolve. I was told to wait 24 hours and it would eventually dissolve. I shook and shook the tank to mix it again retally well before I started spraying today. Turned out, after I was halfway through the first gallon that I le3anred I had some solid chucks at the bottom ot the sprayer. I took a broom handle  and crushed and crushed it it still would not completely mix, perhaps over the saturation point at this point, maybe should have added a little more water. The floating crystals clogged the sprayer nozzle. I switched to a power paint spryer and that worked better, but on the last container or two, the nozzle clogged with the crystals again.
 Lessons learned: take more care with mixing with hot water next time, those pump spray nozzles clog way too easy. Look into Timbor more and try to learn what the precise differences are, if any.
 It's a learning process for me and I am just trying to work my way through it with the huge source of help I have here. By the way, just to be clear, the pine beetles have to eat this stuff in order the be killed by it. They go through life cycles on a short rotation (google it), so you have to wait for them to go through a life cycle in order to eat the stuff and end the cycle. This will not kill them on contact. SO seeing the tell tale dust piles right after you spray means they are eating and this is what is needed, provided they find the desert you left for them. That's why I spray the heck out of the holes, I figure that's where they will next start chewing as the emerge.
 That's all I know so far. Share what you know, right?

[Don P]

Solubor is ag listed, Timbor is EPA listed as an insecticide however look at the CAS (chemical abstract services) number, identical.

Remember salt is a chemical, homemade toll house cookies are nothing but chemicals and arsenic is organic. And yes reading the MSDS is smart!

[Old Greenhorn]

So Don are you saying (as I think you are saying and as I have been able to discern for myself with my limited knowledge) that they are the same on a chemical level? I am not challenging you here, I am asking because I truly don't understand this stuff. I really don't.
 Now I have a buddy with a pest control business who has offered to get me whatever I want (provided distribution is legal in our state, which is not clear) at cost and I asked him the same question. He referred the question on to his rep at the supplier and we will see what they say. I am just trying to understand this stuff. I don't like working with chemicals, but after reading the SDS on this stuff I am not feeling too worried. My gosh, Solubor is sold as an organic fertilizer. I sure hope it is not too friendly to those pine beetles. ;D The SDS says I can ingest directly a couple of ounces of the stuff and just have an upset stomach and maybe some temporary bowel problems. Yet for some reason, my state won't allow it to be sold here? I am really confused. ;D :D I am not really a stupid guy, or at least I don't think so, but this stuff confuses me and making a mistake or being sloppy could have bad results. I just want to learn and do it right, for me, my family, neighbors, and environment. Maybe I am putting too fine a point on it, but I need to 'get it' and for me that means understanding it. I appreciate all your help thus far, I am just a slow learner.

[Don P]

My sister always threatened to get a "Slow Children" sign printed on a T shirt for me  :D.

It comes out of the same hole in the ground and they are the same, some goes into the cheap fertilizer sack some goes into the expensive insecticide bag they licensed from the EPA. You are using it off label which is not allowed. With most things I am in agreement because of other stuff in the bag, the unknown "inert ingredients", with this there isn't anything else in either bag.

It is a micronutrient, if spilled it will temporarily kill the grass but it is mobile in the soil and you are probably the same as me in that regard, the soil is boron deficient. If so you can land or foliar apply it on an organic farm, it is OMRI listed. My planer shavings go to the garden paths and have for years, the soil report calls for more every year. Working over a plastic sheet with sawdust on it isn't a bad idea. I had a small spill at the mill and felt bad about it, maybe a few gallons of mix that I slopped. I was heading down to dig it up the next morning and the deer had beat me to it going for the mineral. It is in high concentration in the water in some places in the world, Death Valley, Afghanistan, and it can take the lead out of your pencil if you ingest too much, that would take a diet of it. Then apparently you go nuts, grab an AK and light up the world in frustration. But other than that it is pretty low impact on mammals. It is a biostat rather than a biocide, it disrupts the gut flora in the insect and inhibits decay fungi, you are overdosing them on a necessary life element. "Dose makes the poison". I have not seen anything legitimate that raises concern. I would like to hear what your PCO friend has to say.