Still making benches

[doc henderson]

@SwampDonkey are you sure that is not fiberglass insulation, R13?   :D :D :D   itchy! 8) 8)   

[SwampDonkey]

Oh my heavens no, nice and soft, no itch. Nice merino, very dense.  

[Old Greenhorn]

Donkey,
 Now the hard question - why did you put a sheepskin on a bench? :D

I thinkk the harder questions is - How did you get the sheep to cooperate? ;D

[kantuckid]

Sheepskin has been used as a cushion for longer than swampdonkey's been around-most likely for millenia. I think it was once used for wheelchairs? 
I've used a sheepskin from www.Alaskanleather. com for many years riding motorcycles. Very common. The first skin I used I bought from a leather supplier on the cheap back years ago when I was riding as now. It looked similar to the one above, fur wise. The one I bought from the Alaska guys is far more supportive, the fur is extremely tight and "wiry" is the word I'll choose to say it doesn't mash down, even after thousands of miles. I only use it on long tours. FWIW, air cushions, gel pads and beads are also used. many swear by the beads but I like my sheepskin well enough to stay with it. 
Attachments via velcro from inner side of skin to the MC. Yoy can even switch them between machines by placing velcro on each MC.   

[SwampDonkey]

My bench one is 2-1/2" long fur. The medical one on the rocker is very dense and shorter.

[kantuckid]

My MC seat pad is extremely dense as when pressed down with your hand or butt and remains so after 10-12 hours on a MC seat-not something I do so much lately. 
I gave my first tried skin, at a homemade seat pad, to my Burlingame, Kansas cousin who made handmade knives from farm implement steel, intricate walking canes, (what I'll call pseudo Indian style various items, given he wasn't indigenous at all) and various leather items such as scabbards , etc.. Sadly for me, he died from Covid recently. 

I've never known if the sheepskin fur differences derive from processing or the sheep's variety and perhaps also weather factors?    

[SwampDonkey]

No expert here by a long shot, but probably race of sheep and climate they lived in. Mine are New Zealand and Australian sheepskins. I just know what I like.

[kantuckid]

Me thinks this is a "butt centric" conversation :D
What I know about sheep is centered on the extremely tiny remnants of having dissected their eyes and brain in 1962 at Washburn U. Anatomy class in KS.
 My only other sheep thing, is that I cannot stand meat from anything that goes BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ;D I don't even like it BBQ'ed.
But I do really like Smartwool socks if thats any concession to the sheep out their?
Howards benches have been left in sheep dust? 

[doc henderson]

@kantuckid if you do not like to eat the meat, how is it that you prepare the socks?  are they high in fiber      :D :D :D

[kantuckid]

My Son's got me Bomba socks for Christmas- the latest, greatest, best thing in socks they say. I've now worn them all day at the mill, etc. and they are VG but truth be known Smartwool socks have more bounce at the end of the day. I defy anyone to try eating either one of them no matter what way their cooked! :D 

Lamb meat story" Once, some 30 years ago, I was at a western KY tech school in Owensboro, KY (it along the Ohio River near the big muddy confluence) and we ate dinner at the world famous, Moonlight BBQ restaurant there. They are know for BBQ and Carrot Cake it seems. I thought, lets see if I can actually like a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH after it's been BBQ'ed, or not. Or not prevailed as it still had that twangy taste I find present in all BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH meats, deer qualifies for me too.
When I worked for the Ohse family's meat packing company, old Fred Ohse kept a dressed out goat carcass hanging in the cold storage where we shipped out our products. It looked sort of like a stunted deer who died last year then hung there on display. He wanted them to hang awhile. left to me they have hung until the cows come home. 
 
I'll add this on socks- I sure wish we'd had today's socks, back when I was an athlete! They truly, truly sucked back in the day. I suspect the homeless folks have better socks than the pro ball players had back then. I've known some people who needed their socks boiled to kill the stink. 

  

[WV Sawmiller]

   Well, I neglected to get a picture because I was too busy building the bench with the customer watching/helping. I have a repeat customer whose daughter is getting married this weekend I think and he wanted to take her 2 of my benches and have all the guests sign them so he wanted them unfinished. He is going to put poly or epoxy on later. I warned him to test to be sure his finish did not dissolve the ink. The only unfinished benches I have in stock are ash. 

   I told him he could pick the LE slab and we could make a bench from it. I brought out 5-6 benches of different sizes and types of woods to show them what was available and what they would look like when finished. 

   The customer looked, took some photos and called his daughter and she picked a big, 5' long ash bench and she decided she wanted one light (ash) and one dark (walnut). The customer selected a 4' LE 8/4 walnut piece with a big knob on one end. I pulled an 8' 9/4 square stock walnut piece I'd cut for legs off the drying rack, cut it into 2' pieces, ran them through the planer, knocked the corners off on my table saw and put them in a vise then cut the tenons on them. I grabbed my 1-1/2" auger bit and we drilled the mortises, turned the bench over, glued and drove the legs on, sawed off the excess length with my Japanese pull saw then put it on the mill, clamped it good and sawed the legs at 17". All that took about 30-35 minutes and he left with a custom built bench from the wood he had selected. He will sand the tops of them both smooth over the next day or two but taking care to leave the EAB tracks on the edges and legs of the ash bench. 

   He saw my walnut cookies and was interested in buying some then I took a tip from the MM and told him I'd loan them to him and he can bring them back after the wedding so he was happy with that. He asked what if his daughter wanted to keep a couple. I told him he could pay for them later (Actually I'll likely just tell him to tell her they are a wedding gift). 

   It was fun and reminds me what I like about this business.

[Magicman]

You just made me smile, my friend.  8)

[WV Sawmiller]

   Well that just made my good day even that much better.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I had the selection of benches out so he could see different woods but also for sizes as they ranged from 30" to 5' long. He had not mentioned what kind of wood or sizes he wanted and I really don't think he knew the differences or had decided.

   I had all the tools out except the planer and tablesaw which were seconds away from pulling out and setting up anyway. Getting the customer to help provided company and I am a pretty social guy most of the time and showed him the process but more important he can now tell his daughter every time he sees the bench "I helped build that."

   I had never thought about benches as wedding gifts or having them signed but it is different. Maybe the rest of you can think of many of your woodworking projects for similar uses.

[Lostinmn]

Well, I got inspired by this thread and ordered a Lumberjack Tools 1" 1.5" and 2" mortise and tenon set.  

My first two tries at benches have been a learning experience, but was a lot of fun.

The first one below I just used 3x3 legs of tamarack which were laying nearby from another project, which I semi-rounded the end with a draw knife so the tenon cutter would get started. I used our larger 1/2 drill, but it was a bear to hold on and would catch. Seemed to fast for the job, but it came together in the end.  As this was just a test, I sawed up a small oak that had fallen down across the trail to the lake which had to be removed anyway.  My dad was applying some timber oil and the bench slipped on one of the flips, dropped down on a leg and cracked the bench.  So I did a quick and dirty bowtie which seemed to stabilize it well enough once it was re-glued and refinished.  Sometimes you have to go with the beautiful oops path in life  ;)  Not likely a professional grade fix, but seemed to work. Its a little higher sitting then typical so mom can get on and off easier.



 



 


After fighting the drill on the first one, I looked over the Lumberjack Tools site and ordered the Milwaukee Model 1660-6 they recommended.  A 450 RPM, single speed with a extra pipe handle on it.  It's a monster and works so much better!  Highly recommend this drill for anyone doing this style mortice and tenon.

I also ordered some bench back risers from Rite Leg as I wanted a bench with a back for the deck on the next one and decided to use some of the smaller limbs for legs.  The result turned out ok for a first try.  The seat part is a little narrow and should be wider for comfort, also the seems as if the bench back risers are designed for a sawn edge on the back rather than a live edge. I had to drill a couple new holes as the the back predrilled hoes didn't extend far enough in to reach solid wood.  I should of looked at the online pictures a little closer, so that is on me, but seems to work well enough with a little tweaking.



 



 



 

I also cut the legs on the saw mill flipped upside down before back was added, at at 22" to make it easer to get down and up for a few of our older guests  ;D

Last was to position it on the deck and attached a couple leg screws up though the crack in the decking to two of the legs.  Even though it is very heavy, it would slide a bit on the composite decking, and couldn't have grandpa and grandmas tipping over the edges!

Thank you to all who shared their experience prior as it gave me a huge jump on the learning curve!!  It was fun first couple tries and learned a some more via trial and error, which hopefully will keep the next few iterations improving.   8)

[Old Greenhorn]

Nicely done! I wish my first tries came out half that good, but then You could learn from some of my errors. :D :D :D :D
 I do note that your legs are inbound from the outside ends quite a bit, I wonder if you have a tipping issue if somebody sits on the very end with no 'ballast' in the center area? Something you may want to look at down the road. Designs choices on these are as wide open as they can get though, as you know. I like the back fitting up on yours. I guess fitting the back the right distance from where the flesh hots the seat has a lot to do with how comfortable it is to sit on, but at some point you have to make a decision. ;D  There is an ergonomic model out there somewhere that may help with that. I should go look. It gives 'human' dimensions for an 80 percentile adult male and/or female. I did note you tied this one down, so I guess that makes the tipping issue a moot point.
 That bowtie is a lot of work, I just soak epoxy into those cracks, then sand, it does a very solid job especially on clean cracks (no rot).
 With the tenon tool, yeah it has always been rough for me too, so I use tthe tool as best I can, then hit them on the belt sander to smooth them off and make them rounder, then use the forstener bit that is a tiny bit smaller and with a hole template (sample block) I finish sand for a good fit, but I don't wedge mine. We have already beat the wedge/no-wedge issue to death as you read above and elsewhere. :D  I sometimes epoxy in my legs, and sometimes glue depending on which way the wind blows through my head that day. ;D
Again, nicely done.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I like it! As I read you made it 22" tall which I feel is a bit high for a bench but you mention it is for older users. If you later decide it is too tall you can always take the back off, put it back on the mill and recut them to a lower height. I sometimes make end tables for customers with the same design and I cut them to be 20" tall. I use 17" as a standard bench height and feel that is a comfortable height to rest my feed on the ground.

  As to the legs I have tried round, square, quarter round, and now octagon. From now on unless it is a special order I'll make the legs out of 2-1/4" square stock that I have run through a table saw with the blade set at a 45* to just knock the corners off. It is not a true octagon but close enough. As long as I can keep my fingers out of the table saw that system works well. The octagon legs fit into the tenon cutter almost as easily as round stock and no need to use a drawknife to round it off like I used to do and as you describe.

  I don't cut the slots for wedges but if the leg needs tightening I drive a steel sledgehammer wedge in. I like the positioning of your wedges. I feel that works better. I have turned then 90* so they run in line with the grain of the wood in the bench top and I have some split the wood to the end of the bench. I think perpendicular to the bench is a better, safer option. I have not tried it yet but I feel if you don't like to see the steel wedges you can countersink them 1/4" and fill the top with wood putty or make your own from wood glue and sawdust from the sander.

  I like the bowtie and am envious as I don't know how to do them. If you want to come show me how you are welcome to come down and I have couple of benches in stock we can use for demo models.

  I may have to try the rite legs back. I had a customer who bought 2 benches from me Saturday but she mentioned she had thought about ones with a back.


I took these 4 RO 4' slabs to my friend to Lichtenburg engrave them using electric probes and high voltage. I made 2 into benches and they were the ones the lady bought from me at a Flea Market Saturday. She saw them, talked a while, took my card, left then called a few minutes later to make sure I was still there. She had gone home to get more money. I sanded another 6' RO slab smooth that afternoon, cut them to 30" and 36" and took them to my friend yesterday to engrave. I'll pick them up next week. If you want to Lictenburg engrave your wood be sure not to add any finish because it retards the current flow from the electric probes. I usually just rub mine down with pure tung oil. I'll oil them after he finishes them then add the legs and cut them to length.

  Keep up the good work and we'll look forward to more pictures.

[Old Greenhorn]

Hey, just a plug here Howard. If you call Rite Leg and explain what you do, they will be happy to send you some catalog brochures for you to show/give to clients. It helps with selection and planning. Tammy ( @Tam-i-am ) and the rest of the fine folks there have be very kind and helpful to me. I have a client coming this afternoon and I am hoping I can talk them into some of those legs, possibly wall brackets. They are bringing their own legacy slab for me to finish.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   That's a great idea. I'll send her a PM and see about getting some of those brochures. Maybe they can be my sponsor and I can even be their "test pilot" for new ideas and new designs. Kind of like these bass fishermen you get the lure and boat makers and such to send them free lures and equipment to try out. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom and @Lostinmn ,

  I did write Tami and one thought if I do go to add a back to any of my benches like Lost did I would want to increase the angle at the back to compensate for the extra weight back there and the expectation people will be leaning back in it instead of just sitting up straight. Leg angles are an issue. Too little angle and the bench will fall over backwards and too much angle and people will trip over the legs sticking out from under the bench. Of course the width of the bench is a big factor too. I have benches that are barely 6" wide and some 18"-20" wide.

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard, you are very correct, the geometry and physics become critical points when you add a back and you have to get it 'right'. I think that's why we have mostly avoided it until that one day when we have thought it over enough and say 'what the heck, lets give it a try'. :D I know that 'backward tip thing' trips me up every time when I try to think it through.
 I hope I am not talking out of school here, but rite leg sent me a pricelist with my price and the retail price for clients which gave me a discount. I will work either way with a custom client, either I buy the legs and fit them, or they can if they like. It was nice to get a commercial price from the fine folks at Rite Leg though. Class act, those folks.
 Case in point, I had a new client here a couple of hours ago who I would say are pretty typical. They brought me their table slab. 7 and a half feet at 8/4 already planed out (not typical!) with a few remaining saw marks. We talked about what they want for finish and feel, and how long to cut it. All the questions I asked led to some blank stares because they hadn't thought about it. It was also a revelation to them that it would take 'a while' before I got it done. The woman wanted her bo' to do the job thinking it was easy. (Just slap some kind of finish on it, right?) He called me because it is wood from a legacy tree and he wanted a proper job done so it would last. When I explained to her that she had a pretty nice piece that was worth 'doing up right' and that 'doing it up right' meant stabilizing all the cracks and knot holes, several epoxy pours then sanding, trimming and fishing to her requirements, she was a little shocked. Her bo' told her this is why he wanted it done right and he lacks those skills or confidence. Then I asked questions about the usage and legs, brackets, whatever. I take a hands off attitude on this and tell them I don't care what they do, but my job is to let them know all the options so they can choose what they really want, rather than what they think they want. I gave them the rite leg catalog to take home and pointed out some of the legs I thought would suit their need (which was already different from what they came in with, which was wall brackets). I told them it matters not to me, they could buy the legs and put them on, or I could do a full job for them. I suggested that they go to the Rite leg website and look over the legs, photos, and options there. I was just trying to make sure that they were really happy with the end result. I could order, or they could order. She said 'bar height' but then indicated something a LOT lower than bar height (like 36"). That's when I suggested they sit on the bar stools they already have and take some measurements of what height they really want.
 We will likely cut this slab down to 6' which will leave 1.5' on one end (focusing on a natural edge feature on the other end she wants to keep). I haven't told them yet, but I plan on cutting off that drop and making another table top out of it for an end table or high cocktail table top and I'll throw that in. It's their wood and I can do it all at the same time, so no big deal. I need to do minor crack and knot hole epoxy fills which will kill time but are no challenge and will disappear in the final finish. I did have some stuff I could show them to explain why I epoxy these defects, and they got it right away. So I sent them away with homework: How long, what kind of legs and who is doing that, how high will this be off the floor, and finish type (gloss verses semi-gloss). While they dwell on those I can start doing epoxy work.

[Lostinmn]

I appreciate your feedback!  Leg position was more of stood back and what looked good feel then any calculation on my part.... I think I will maybe look up some of the more standard measurements to use for baseline on future benches, no reason to reinvent the wheel!  I was just in too much of a hurry to play with my new toys on this round   

I should look up the ergonomic standards you mentioned, seems like it would be a useful baseline for guidance. I'll have to do some butt testing with how inboard the legs on are on this one. Even if these are screwed down, to much inboard could create excess stress which would be good to design out for the next try.

I did select legs with more extension and back-sweep for the rear as I figured it would need a bit more stability in that direction.  It was only marginally dry when I finished it and it hasn't had a good sit test yet.  I'm planning on giving it plenty of coffee drinking sit testing this coming weekend and ponder changes revealed for the next one.  

I think with the oddities of live edges, I might be better off welding up and painting my own brackets.  I though it would be more cost effective to buy them verses taking the time to make my own as my cabin play time is limited, but as each piece for seat and back has so much variation on edge it might be better to custom measure and make for each bench.  

I think I'll do that on the next one and see how it goes.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and happy bench making!!

[WV Sawmiller]

I did select legs with more extension and back-sweep for the rear as I figured it would need a bit more stability in that direction.

    That brings up a good point. Since I free-hand the tenon cutter instead of using it on a more stable and consistent platform, something like a drill press, lathe or ShopSmith or such, sometimes the tenon is not perfectly in line with the rest of the leg. I can sometimes use that to my advantage in free hand mortises where I "eyeball" the angle. I can rotate the leg in the mortise to angle it forward or backwards to achieve the desired angle. I am sure you could build a jig to drill the mortise in consistent angle if I really tried.

    I am sure adding backs will add more challenges as I assume the higher up you place the back the more or less stable the bench will be.

   Anyway just keep playing with them and keep posting your results, observations and lessons learned. BTW - what are you doing with your benches?

[Lostinmn]

I make them for fun so I'm just making them for our use or friends/family as gifts.  My play time is limited with full time work and a couple of young'uns yet.  I don't think I'll out strip my demand with supply for  awhile, and knowing myself I'll likely take up with some other type of project at some point too.  My wife has always said she is sure I have undiagnosed ADHD   ;D

[Old Greenhorn]

  My wife has always said she is sure I have undiagnosed ADHD   ;D

For many of us, it's either that or OCD. We just learn to live with it. ;D :D