How do I calculate this?

[SwampDonkey]

Doesn't Costa Rica have commonwealth status with the US. I doubt it's considered hostile. ;)

As far as the GPS your doing good.  2-3 meters is excellent for your use.

[crtreedude]

I don't think so - Costa Rica has treaties - but I think you are thinking of Puerto Rico.

The GPS12 was the start of the more accurate receivers - it uses up to 12. So, I guess it means I can't go buy one....

Ah well, what I really want is wood working tools anyway.

[SwampDonkey]

Crtreedude, yup my mistake. ;D

[crtreedude]

Well, most people think Costa Rica is a Caribean Island....  ;)

[Fla._Deadheader]

I still have the Garmin 45XL  ??? ???  Sold the differential to another TreasureHunter.  : ;D

[Murf]

Most people thought Grenada was just a model of Ford, until we went in and shot it all up that is.  :D

[crtreedude]

It has been said that the USA learns geography through wars - I fear it might be true.  I mean, could you really have placed Iraq on a map before we went to war with them?

A lot of my friends think I live in South America.

[SwampDonkey]

crtreedude, how are ya making out with your area measurements? Was curious in knowing why you have trees in groups of 100. Are they in lots?

[Tillaway]

The trick with the waypoints is that you can collect your data when you have 4 sats for a 3D fix.  Etrexs will collect data with 2 Sats, don't ask me how, when you run them in track mode you collect 2D,3D and garbage with only 2 sats.  They multipath something fierce.  Operating the consumer models using the satellite screens allows you to see how many Sats, signal strength and error before you collect data.  Delete all the old waypoints and start fresh each project.  Acrview Xtools will connect the dots in order you took them creating a nice line or area.  Also track logs could plug the memory pretty quick.  Another problem with track logs is you can't pause them while collecting data.  Walk around an obstacle or take a detour and watch it follow you.

The old GPS 12 would not seem to multipath as bad.

[crtreedude]

Status report:

Well, I took the track I had and uploaded it and made a shape file - however, it had breaks and the weird thing is that it acted like I only walked a few feet - when the area I walked around is about 5 acres. The shape was right, the scaling was off.

What I am going to do is repeat the process a few time until I get it right - say walking a known area and slowing down the sampling so I have fewer points.

The software is a little buggy - I have crashed it a few times. But, it appears to be workable.

I think we are going to hire a part-time forestry engineer - if not full-time. It will cost us about $750 dollars per month and he comes with car and computer. I have so much to do and not enough time.

The reason for the 100 tree blocks is the following: Besides growing trees for ourselves, we also sell trees as an investment to others. The smallest increment is 100 trees. After the trees are eventually removed, the land is becoming a perpetual forest - managed for wildlife and future wood. It will never be clear cut but the harvesting will be done in such a way as to encourage biological diversity as well as wildlife. Since we will be doing the processing of the wood all the way to furniture, there will be plenty of value to pay for workers, etc.

We keep growing and I keep getting buried. I have been using a young forestry engineer (okay, he is 30 I am told) who has been doing very well for us on some consulting jobs - I think I am going to hire him. I would see if SwampDonkey would like a job but the commute would be a killer and the pay wouldn't be very good...

One of the tasks is that I want to do year reports for each owner of trees - how much growth and how well they are doing. We are having very good results - and I like to share that with the people who are involved - besides, I am a geek - I love numbers.  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

crtreedude,

Thanks for the status report and keeping me in mind for your For. Eng. position. ;D Venimous snakes and things with big teeth would not get along with me well. :D

Try Tillaway's approach and use way points at your corners for a block and see how that works. I almost think you can use DNR GArmin to export the waypoints as an area, not sure.

Was it FreeGIS that was buggy? I've never used the program, but it can't be more flukey than Arcview used to be. Used to only run Arcview 3.x on NT and don't ask me how many times I had to reinstall it. ;D

Also, it sounds like in your track file you had some non differential or non 3d points. What I do is keep my eye on the GPS to make sure I have 3D Diff, and I hold up (wait) if I am only getting 2D positioning. No consumer GPS will have a continuous Differential signal, comes and goes. So you have to hold up and wait for the 3D Diff signal to comes back on your screen. Try some easy measurements around a small field to test before venturing into the bush. Watch for snakes. ;) :D

[Tillaway]

If you use track logs, set up tracking to use distance instead of time if that feature is available.  If not use 5 seconds on a timer.  The problem with standing around with a track log open is the receiver continues to take points even though you are not moving.  This gives you a cluster of points to edit and that is a real PITA sometimes.

CR
How do you acount for each investors trees (log accountability) and do you make any allowances for site productivity, microsite, aspect, etc?  Variantions in these greatly effect the investments performance.

[crtreedude]

Hi Tillaway,

I switched to sampling based on seconds instead of Automatic, it seemed to create a much nicer track.  Unless I fall down, I won't be just standing around I hope.  ;)

The way we account for variation is to only sell trees that have shown very good growth. I don't select the trees until almost a year.  Any substandard growth rate sections we just keep in our own portfolio of trees. We don't have any trees that grow less than above average, so we don't mind. We happen to be fortunate in that I don't need to sell any trees - we just had people asking if we would. Since I agreed to do so, I want to do it right.

My GPS does do waypoints and that might work very well indeed! You can even store routes, and routes are made up of waypoints. So, I could enclose a group of trees and then store the route for a given group. Also, I then can say for example group 1,000 trees if need be for a given purchase. The average purchase is about 300 trees.

One thing I am also doing since I say I will replant for the first 3 years any tree that fails is selecting 110 % into a block of trees. This way I have all of the same age class, instead of having runts. So far our cull rate is running at 5%.  Any trees that end up beyond the 100 originally agreed on will end up in our pile, but by choosing the worst trees instead of the best.

I consider gathering this data as part of marketing - people who see that their trees are doing well want more. It sure works for me - when I walk among the trees I own and see them all beautiful and growing faster than weeds (would you believe 1/2 inch a day?) then I want to plant more. The same thing happens when people visit us.

There has been a lot of scams in growing trees in the tropics so I want to do it so that everything is clear and above board.

Besides, I want all of these trees in the future for the lumber business - I am actually more in the wood business than the tree business and I want a steady supply of good trees.

Since there appears be a requirement  :D for pictures: Here is one of the Sura planted 2 years ago. The Teak in the picture is a little less than a year old - the ones on top of the hill are sold and are the biggest - but the ones in the foreground are above average.

[Tillaway]

I kind of struggling with the concept of selling such small lots of trees as investments.  I am used to owning the land, the timber, or both the land and timber based on geographical boundaries.  It seems like the trees being sold move around the landscape so to speak.  "These are not doing well so you can have some of those over there."  When the trees are harvested how do you keep it all straight?  If I were investing I would want to be able to track my logs all the way to the mill.  It seems to be pretty hard when you have multiple owners trees all mixed together using the same landings trucks and equipment at the same time.  The landing would have to be huge to make up that many sorts.

[crtreedude]

It really isn't hard since we will be doing the harvesting and the buying of the trees. I want the trees for my own lumber business. This is also what computers are for and I have been working in that field for 20+ years.

No, I don't replace trees, I have a group of 110 - if all of them do well, fine, the 10 worst trees are mine - not theirs. By the way, this is not by contract. By contract they own trees marked of in a particular location - nothing more. I will replant in that area. I just find the 110 a little easier to handle. I honestly like to give people more than they expect. This is not purely because I am trying to be a good guy but because going the extra mile helps them feel good about their investment - which means they tell others and buy more themselves.

The value of the trees is based on their size and quality - we own the sawmill. If they wish, they can sell to someone else, no problem at all, but I doubt someone else will pay more since they will be close to our sawmill. I don't track the boards - no need. All I have to do is calculate the board feet in each tree. There might be some loss I will suffer from this - but since we are growing the trees, I have a certain amount of control over this.

One thing you might be missing is how cheap labor is here. A skilled laborer who can count individual trees and enter them into a database makes 2 dollars per hour. I can have all the detail I want. Down here, when you purchase something, normally 3 people check you out. 1 to do the receipt, 1 take the money, and one to give you your stuff. It prevents stealing and each of them only make about a buck an hour.

Most times people are trying to grow lots and lots of trees, and what they lack in quality, they make up in quantity. We are taking a different approach. We are selling premium soil, conditions and care. This results in the best return for small lots.

Totally different model than probably what you are used to. There is another company who has been doing this well for 10 years (and so have harvests) who have planted more than 1.8 million trees this way. We are the little guy. 

However, our results are much better than I ever hoped - and we keep improving.

[Tillaway]

It just seems like allot of hassle for timber you are growing for yourself.  Is it on your own land?  Its kind of like a company buying thier own helicopter, leasing it a flight service, and then leasing it back from the flight service.  I never could figure that one out.

[crtreedude]

Look at it this way - I own the land, but to grow good trees requires a lot of money - especially some of the trees I am growing. The larger the operation, the less things cost per tree. I could easily plant let's say 100 acres, but we now have 240 acres, and growing. Now, you know as well as I that selling lumber makes money just like growing trees. If I have access to really good trees in the future for lumber, furniture, etc - it means that I can afford to invest in trucks, sawmills, tools for furniture, stores because of economies of scale.

If I had millions - perhaps I would do it the other way - but this is working very well for me.

Also, my final goal is not just to make money, but to return as much as land I can back to rainforest - 70% of Costa Rica is deforested and the land is unstable because of it. The more trees I sell, the more land is returned. Eventually it will end up being a managed forest instead of a plantation. Given the scarcity of the native trees now - I feel the natives will have much more value than the plantation trees in the future.

If all I wanted to do was make the most money possible, there are easier ways - I am in software after all and get paid very well for it. No, this is an attempt to make it possible for the small investor to diversify into tropical hardwoods as well as return land back to rainforest by using one cycle of plantation trees.

It might not be the best business decision as far as how to put the most money in my pocket - but frankly, I am not that greedy. As long as it works, I am happy - and it is.

Besides, people pay me to take care of their trees and I buy more land to do so from the money they pay me. So, it isn't like I am consuming my land.  My land is the seed capital.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know what you came up with Fred, but here are some screen shots from my hand held GPS software, Arpad 7.01.



Outline of my woodlot in green, with green diamonds representing red oak I have found.



Maps can be rotated, notice the north arrow direction compared to the previous picture.



GPSCorrect extension used to collect positions to be post processed in PathFinder Office for increased accuracy.



Satellite sky plot window, no current fix. This window shows the position of satellites in the sky. You don't see any at the moment since the GPS is indoors.



Edit mode with stand boundaries labeled with area (ha).



Geography of my woodlot, length and area (metric). This can be changed to imperial units. Note there are no Z values since this was a 2D shapefile that does not collect elevation (Height above Elipsoid actually).

Generating contours (in metres) in my GIS program (Matitude 4.6)



The imported Geography text file with long, lat, elev.



Generated contours with labeled intervals (10 m)



Contour layer overlaid onto Orthophoto layer.

;D