Edging against a cant - modified the process

[GAB]

@GAB @SawyerTed

Do your Taro cards have a current calibration?  :D

Maybe we should see if there are any FF palm readers  

Maybe if I get the land I want, I might accessorize it with some orange paint.

I do not have any Taro cards.  Do they have anything to do with poi?
I'm not aware of any FF palm reader members.  If there are any of you out there please squeak-up.
I wish you the best in acquiring the land you desire.  My gut feel is in two to four years prices will be more reasonable.
GAB

[Magicman]

If your sawmill has movable bed rails, it is very important to have them fully supporting the cant from end to end with very minimum overhang.

Yup, I mentioned that overhang back in Reply #24. 

[GAB]

If your sawmill has movable bed rails, it is very important to have them fully supporting the cant from end to end with very minimum overhang.

Yup, I mentioned that overhang back in Reply #24.

People like me are slow learners and need to hear things more than once.  Hopefully I used different words than you did.
Sorry I did not mean to step on your toes.
Gerald

[WV Sawmiller]

   Wow! A couple of impressive comments from seasoned veterans (WDH and Brandi. Brandi don't be taking offense at being called seasoned . It is a term of respect and should be accepted gracefully as intended.) indicating this may be helpful to them. It seems so obvious I was reluctant to post it as I figured most other experienced sawyers were going to comment "You're just now figuring that out? I learned that about the same time I learned how to replace a band."

  Gerald - what helper/mill hand? It sounds like you are collecting quite a few flitches before edging and gang edging them. No doubt that is faster but many of us like to edge the flitches off the cant they came from rather letting them accumulate which is especially important when mobile sawing. I think gang edging is more appropriate to a stationary set up.

   I admit this is late but because some folks asked I took pictures today and will post and explain here.



The process starts with the final turn of the cant. Note the side supports are completely lowered and the moveable clamp is lowered below the final cut depth, in this case >1" since I am sawing 4/4 boards. (After I took this picture I noted the cant was not on the rail at the end so I lifted and moved it before actually starting to saw). Flitches to be edges are staged on the loading arms. This is a short log which is less likely to have much spring but it was the next one I was sawing.


Saw the cant to the rails removing the slab and leaving a stack of finished boards. (In this case I see I had 7 boards - the top one is actually a flitch since there is still some bark to be edged off it.)


The next step is to raise the side supports against the stack of board, open the clamp on the opposite side and stand the flitches against the stack to edge them. Note that I removed the top flitch and one more board leaving a height of boards at 5" so I can edge safely to 6".


View from the clamp side - flitches are tightly clamped against the stack of boards.


Edge the tallest flitch(es) and open the clamp to remove the finished board. Re-clamp any remaining flitches and repeat edging.


Note here I removed a couple more boards as I am fixing to edge to 4" so reduced my stack from 5 to 3 boards and lowered th side supports and clamp accordingly to clear them. The known height of the boards makes it handy knowing the height of the clamp and side supports.


Edge the final flitch.


At the end of the project open the clamp and stack the boards. In this simple case you see an 8", a 6" and a 4" finished board  from my 3 flitches I started with.

  I know you high production sawyers may scoff and the time and effort expended here but there is a place for it with us smaller portable and hobby sawyers.

  I hope this helps clear up the process.

[Crossroads]

I've tried both edging against the cant as well as edging against the last 2-3 boards from the cant. They both work well, but I feel like I can do just as well and maybe save a little time by putting all of the flitches up. I try to get any that have 1 square edge against the side supports with the square edge down. Clamp the whole pile with the side supports all the way up. I then take a cut that will square up the widest 2-3 cants. Flip them and make a cut at the widest board, let's say 10". This will make 2-3 10" boards to be removed and hopefully square up a couple more flitches to be flipped. Then make and 8" cut. Those 8" boards get laid down flat and the last of the flitches with 1 square edge are placed between them and the clamp for the last cuts of 6" and 4". Hope this makes sense

[TimW]

Thank Howard!  I finally learned something from you.  

Something besides how to bait limb lines and how to insult a poor Bulldog?   :D :D :D

I'm a  blond.  Please explain you last statement.  If you can.
hugs,  Brandi

[TimW]

  Wow! A couple of impressive comments from seasoned veterans (WDH and Brandi. Brandi don't be taking offense at being called seasoned . It is a term of respect and should be accepted gracefully as intended.) indicating this may be helpful to them.

Spicy is seasoned.
         hugs,  Brandi

[Magicman]

I've tried both edging against the cant as well as edging against the last 2-3 boards from the cant. They both work well, but I feel like I can do just as well and maybe save a little time by putting all of the flitches up.

I will support and encourage any method that anyone has regarding various setups that saves them time, headache, or heartburn.

I thought that I was the only 'odd man out' but it seems that I am not.  Yes, I tried using a cant and also sawed lumber as a support but I have found it just as easy, faster, and better for me to also just stand the flitches up against the side supports and edge them.  I occasionally run into a bad actor, but when that happens, I just get bad with it. 

[WDH]

Brandi,

I am the Bulldog (University of Georgia Bulldog) that he insults and I am mostly gray.  

[VB-Milling]

Thank you for taking the time @WV Sawmiller

I think this will go a long way in helping some newbies, myself included, on alternate methods of edging.

[WV Sawmiller]

 %^@(&!) system ate my post again,

Lynn,

 Correct me if I'm wrong but I bet you are edging more framing lumber  that is 1.5"-2" thick. Thick lumber can more readily stand up to be edged without a cant or stack of boards behind them for support. Thinner boards like 4/4 seem to work better for me against a cant or stack of boards for backbone. A stack of 5-6 thinner, say 4/4, flitches clamped in the middle are harder for me to get to stand  straight and they want to flop and bounce back and forth as they are sawed than if they are stabilized against a cant or stack of boards.

 My clamp needs over 2" of wood to clamp securely. If edging a single 4/4 flitch I have to stand another narrower board or two but beside them. Once I have one squared edge I can use something like a 1X3 laid down flat and clamped against it for solid support the whole length of the flitch. Thanks to Marty Parsons for showing me that technique many years ago.

 Another point we have not discussed well is the diameter and length of cant determines how likely it is to raise up due to tension. Short, large diameter cants are much less likely to raise up than long small diameter ones.

Brandi,

   Okay we will agree "Seasoned" means "spicy". :D

[Sixacresand]

I edged some dried boards for roof fascia last winter, I sandwiched them between two cants to hold the ends steady.  

[TimW]

Brandi,

I am the Bulldog (University of Georgia Bulldog) that he insults and I am mostly gray.  

Oh wow.  I thought Howard sent that and was referring to me and Fritz.  Now I am as confused as Howard talking about me sawing with a fan in my barn.
hugs,  Brandi

[GAB]

  Okay we will agree "Seasoned" means "spicy". :D

Around here when talking seasoned firewood no spices are involved.
GAB

[Digger Don]

I think that was the last piece of the puzzle I was lacking the understanding

I hate to break the news to you but thinking you understand will only get you to the next log/cant which will teach you another lesson.  Each one is an individual unto itself with it's own game plan and is perfectly willing to teach you another lesson.


 

You would certainly expect this one to be a bad actor and it was, but I had another today that was perfectly pith centered that had an absolute mind of it's own.  I didn't take a picture of the end because it looked good but...

one end lifted off of the bed rail a half inch.  I continued to saw down until there were only three 1" boards left in the cant before flipping it 180° and

 

taking a cut to bring it back true.  I only lost one 1" board so no big deal.  Sometime you salvage what you can and don't sweat the rest.

The point that I am attempting to make is that this sawing ain't an exact science with textbook rules.

Please, pardon my ignorance, but I'm still learning what the terms here mean. I barely know how to make this post! In the photo with the offset pith, how would you suggest cutting that? Start with the pith on one side, like in the photo? Top? Bottom?

[Digger Don]

  Wow! A couple of impressive comments from seasoned veterans (WDH and Brandi. Brandi don't be taking offense at being called seasoned . It is a term of respect and should be accepted gracefully as intended.) indicating this may be helpful to them. It seems so obvious I was reluctant to post it as I figured most other experienced sawyers were going to comment "You're just now figuring that out? I learned that about the same time I learned how to replace a band."

 Gerald - what helper/mill hand? It sounds like you are collecting quite a few flitches before edging and gang edging them. No doubt that is faster but many of us like to edge the flitches off the cant they came from rather letting them accumulate which is especially important when mobile sawing. I think gang edging is more appropriate to a stationary set up.

  I admit this is late but because some folks asked I took pictures today and will post and explain here.



The process starts with the final turn of the cant. Note the side supports are completely lowered and the moveable clamp is lowered below the final cut depth, in this case >1" since I am sawing 4/4 boards. (After I took this picture I noted the cant was not on the rail at the end so I lifted and moved it before actually starting to saw). Flitches to be edges are staged on the loading arms. This is a short log which is less likely to have much spring but it was the next one I was sawing.


Saw the cant to the rails removing the slab and leaving a stack of finished boards. (In this case I see I had 7 boards - the top one is actually a flitch since there is still some bark to be edged off it.)


The next step is to raise the side supports against the stack of board, open the clamp on the opposite side and stand the flitches against the stack to edge them. Note that I removed the top flitch and one more board leaving a height of boards at 5" so I can edge safely to 6".


View from the clamp side - flitches are tightly clamped against the stack of boards.


Edge the tallest flitch(es) and open the clamp to remove the finished board. Re-clamp any remaining flitches and repeat edging.


Note here I removed a couple more boards as I am fixing to edge to 4" so reduced my stack from 5 to 3 boards and lowered th side supports and clamp accordingly to clear them. The known height of the boards makes it handy knowing the height of the clamp and side supports.


Edge the final flitch.


At the end of the project open the clamp and stack the boards. In this simple case you see an 8", a 6" and a 4" finished board  from my 3 flitches I started with.

 I know you high production sawyers may scoff and the time and effort expended here but there is a place for it with us smaller portable and hobby sawyers.

 I hope this helps clear up the process.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm new. Both here and milling. I'm not familiar with WM (mine is a TimberKing), but it appears that your flitches are against the clamp. I thought they would be against the side supports, with the cant between the clamp and the flitches. Wouldn't that hold them straighter? I'm certainly not doubting your technique, just trying to understand why. Thanks.

[btulloh]

Good point.  Sometimes It takes both, depending on the flitches. The cant is already against the bacstops, so it's easierto leave it there. Sometimes I throw a handy 2x4 on the clamp side. Just depends on how the flitches behave. Like a lot of things, best to adjust for actual conditions during the battle. 

[TimW]

 Okay we will agree "Seasoned" means "spicy". :D

Around here when talking seasoned firewood no spices are involved.
GAB

Now I'm firewood? say_what :snowball1: smiley_ignore
          hugs,  Brandi

[SawyerTed]

Salt is seasoning...  :D

[Magicman]

In the photo with the offset pith, how would you suggest cutting that?

With that particular log, I made my initial face opening in that position and turned the log 90° after each face opening.  This gave me lumber that would tend to bow rather than crook.


 
Here is another example of stress being released while sawing.  That board moved in excess of an inch before I was half way to the far end.

[WV Sawmiller]

Ted,

  I am sure Brandi was sugar cured so don't stir the pot too much here. And I will make no more comments about fans in barns.

  Fritz looks to have a much better pedigree than any bulldog I ever met so I meant no offense to any other (than bulldogs) K-9s either.

Lynn,

    Thanks for the post and pictures and explanation.

[Magicman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I bet you are edging more framing lumber that is 1.5"-2" thick. Thick lumber can more readily stand up to be edged without a cant or stack of boards behind them for support.

Correct Howard, I do saw much more framing lumber but there is not much noticeable difference with 1" flitches.

I edged the flitches from 33 logs yesterday and today sawing all 1" lumber with no problem.  Not trying to convince nor change anyone's edging methods, just stating mine and joining Crossroads as 'odd men out'.  

[WV Sawmiller]

  Since we are still talking edging here I will cover a topic/trick I learned years ago and posted somewhere but probably no pictures.

When you are edging a bunch of flitches and need to remove a single flitch to edge the opposite side or because it is finished I find a flitch/board in the middle often binds from pressure of the other flitches being edged. I can lift one end (the one next to me) but the other is held tightly. What I found on a job up in Bolt WV (Little Jimmy Dicken's home town) when edging lots of 4/4 boards was to use a "pivot stick"  which was basically a short sticker. I'd lift one end of the board/flitch to be removed and put the pivot stick under the flitch/board to be removed and across to the other flitches to be edged. Press down on the end of the board/flitch and the other end pops free and you can turn it over or slide it to the side to ne stacked.


I was edging against a stack of board per my now standard practice, I lifted this finished flitch out of the middle of the stack but the opposite end was binding and put the pivot stick under it. In this case I left it to take this picture. Next I just pushed down and the far end popped free. The closer to the center you place your pivot stick the less pressure it takes to free the opposite end. Its a handy trick when sawing alone and edging and removing flitches/boards one at a time. Not a high production technique, more of a high quality, "save every board possible" technique.

@GAB ,

Earlier in this you mentioned sawing for maximum width and that set me to thinking. Does that mean you are doing simple through and through sawing and not squaring 4 sides? When I want maximum width that is what I do. I saw the first face of the cant down to the side supports, rotate the cant 180 degrees and clamp low down and continue sawing to the rails. In this case every cut makes a flitch that has to be edged. I then stand the flitches up, clamp them and start edging in 1" drops. Every time I get a clean face, I unclamp and remove the flitch/board as described above. When I have both faces clean I remove the board for stacking.

This is not my normal practice. I normally saw first face and remove the slab and a flitch or two, flip the cat 180 degrees and repeat down to the width of my desired finished boards. I then flip the cant 90 degrees, remove the slab and a flitch or two till I hit clean wood on both sides then start removing finished boards. This means less edging for me. When I get to the side supports I make my final turn, start on a mark to end on a finished board, remove the slab and a flitch or two till I hit clean wood on both sides and saw to the rails then go back and edge my flitches per this thread. This does not produce maximum width boards but it does reduce edging.

Please clarify what you meant earlier when you commented about "sawing for maximum width boards" or something to that effect. Thanks.

BTW: I normally don't saw over 12" widths unless the customer is there or askes me to do so because most of my customers don't have a planer that will plane over 12" wide.

[GAB]

Mr. Green:
When I wrote that I try and get maximum width boards what I meant was that I will study a log with a tape measure or yardstick in hand and make decisions from there.
For example if a log is 32" dia. at the small end I try and center the pith and tuck it to the log stops with the log stops at 30 to 45°.
Then take a slab and 2 live edge boards, then rotate 180° and slab and take 2 or 3 boards to end at 20".  Then rotate 90° and center the pith again and slab and then saw down a ways.  Now the top 2 or 3 or 4  boards will probably all need to be edged.  After sawing down a little past the pith rotate 180°, lower the centering roller (to avoid long tapers), lower the log stops (necessary to avoid scrapping a blade and hearing ungodly noises), and clamp real low and saw the rest of the cant.  Again depending on the shape of the log you may have 2 or 3 or 4 more boards to edge from what was the bottom of the cant prior to flipping.
If a customer says he wants nothing wider than 12" then that is what I aim for.
I hope this answers your inquiry.
GAB

[WV Sawmiller]

Gerald,

   Thanks. Sounds like you pretty much are doing what I do only probably more diligent with your measurements while I am eye-balling mine.

   I had a big hump backed log to saw today and sawed the hump off getting short boards off it till I got the full length sawed clean. Not only did I have to edge the sides off I had to cut both ends off to get short but clean, useable boards.