New Woodmizer LT15 Start vertical rail not plumb

[etd66ss]

This Forum is here to try and help. I'm looking at your last post, and I see no place where you are asking for ideas on helping you get your mill running correctly, but just a chance to use the platform as yours to bitch.  Its a tough world right now. Don't use the forum to complain about the manufacturer, use it to let us try and help you to figure it out SO YOU CAN FIX IT.  Ive been around sawmills my entire life. The steps are. Identify the problem, form a plan of action, then fix it. If one is incapable of fixing a sawmill, then they really should find another hobby. Mills break ALL THE TIME and especially if you think they wont. Sometimes as they say, the problem can be traced to the loose nut behind the wheel. Never discount that.

My issue with this take is he paid for a product, the product is defective. The purchaser of said product should not bear the burden of fixing a defective product. That's the route we must take when buying crap from China, not a product from the US IMO.  Or are we using COVID to absolve every manufacturer of delivering defective products these days?

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, I was trying to ignore this thread but now I find I can't. First, the OP here has not asked for help or advice as has already been pointed out. It would seem he prefers to fold his arms and wait for somebody to magically fix his problems. I should not need to point out that purchasing a piece of equipment implies that the new owner understands they will need to gain an intimate knowledge of said equipment to maximize output and maintain it over it's life. There are no 'Sawmill repair shops' in any town I know of. We are all on our own. Nobody doubts this machine should be working properly and WM has a responsibility to help make that happen. But in this industry sawmill builders are used to and adjusted to doing business with folks who are willing to take ownership and be part of the team.
 All that aside, I note that the OP here does not participate in any other conversations on this forum. He has made 11 posts and 10 of them are on the thread. Jeff is the boss and he makes the rules. Those rules are one the vast majority have no problem adhering to.
 I and many others, could suggest ways to help get this machine up to snuff. Personally I feel that my advice would not work for a variety of reasons, none of which have to do with the quality of the suggestions.
 I might point out there is another thread going on right now regarding another piece of WM equipment that several experienced users are having trouble with (brand new units out of the box). Those posters sought help and a great deal of progress has been made both from forum knowledge and WM support. It's a very similar scene with a very different outcome because of the attitude of those having the problems and the fact that they sought help and worked through it.
 I spent 50 years helping customers on the phone get things working and I can tell you that the person with a chip on his shoulder when he calls is gonna fall way down my priority list, but I will get him going IF he will work with me once he calms down. Yell at me and you are pretty much done. Focus on technical facts, perform the tests I ask exactly as I ask them and give me clear results and we can make quick headway to getting it fixed.
 I'll be blunt, maybe even rude, which I have never done on this forum until now. If all you can do is complain, don't do it here. If you really want to solve the issue, ask for help and give good accurate details. My gosh, I can't even count the number of LT15 owners here that would help you and make measurements on their mills or whatever you need. The truth is, I bet there are at least 50 guys here who would have you making nice lumber after a few hours visit at your mill with all the facts and the right tools in hand. Others have fixed this issue in short order. Complaining doesn't feed the livestock.
 Yeah, we get it, you are *pithed off and nobody blames you. But what are YOU going to do about it?

[ladylake]

 
 I think any manufacture should fix something that is not built right. plain and simple .  Steve

[barbender]

I agree that a manufacturer should stand behind their product. I think the problem for the Forum becomes when people think it is their own personal loudspeaker to try and get the result they are pushing for. I've never once seen that work here, I've probably been on here over 15 years. The Facebook sites are full of that kind of stuff, maybe try there🤷‍♂️

[Stephen1]

I find this an interesting post. It has been almost a year since you last posted about your problem. How many calls have you had with WM in the last year? What have you done to fix the problem. How many logs have you tried to saw with the problem mill? All of us on here feel your pain and are willing to help where we can. Trouble shooting is this Forums specialty. 
I was told years ago that it is my mill and "you have to learn how to fix it yourself". This I was told by Brian and Dave who worked at WM head office in Canada. They spent countless hrs on the phone trouble shooting my old used 1993 mill that was over 20 years old at the time. This forum has answered countless questions on my old mill and even my new mill. 
I know you have bought a new machine and it should work when you receive it. 
The old saying comes to mind, 
"you only get help when you help yourself"
Ask us how we can help?
As someone else says, if you want to bith go to facebook

[flyingparks]

Seems like a legitimate manufacturing problem and I'm sorry the manufacturer hasn't made it right. I'm glad you shared the problem and the response. I find it helpful. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't want to fix it myself. I could, but I wouldn't want to. Sure, I buy second hand tools and vehicles all of the time and assume the risk it comes with. I bought a new truck a while back, my first one, that had a transmission issue within the first week. I was in a loaner for the month that my vehicle was being fixed. I paid $50 out of pocket for the warranty deductible. They made it right. Good luck with the fix. I would suggest driving it the 90 miles. Where I live, 90 miles is nothing. Help them make it right.

[AbbyR]

How many calls have you had with WM in the last year? What have you done to fix the problem. How many logs have you tried to saw with the problem mill? All of us on here feel your pain and are willing to help where we can. Trouble shooting is this Forums specialty.

I've been trying to conduct most of my communications via email. I did let this go for a year. Priorities.... I'm still helping my wife who had a stroke a while back. I work a full time job. I didn't do much milling over the winter. Etc..

Over the last month, I've probably milled about 20 logs. All pine. I'm helping my son build a fence around his property.
I apologize for the bitching I've intermingled with my posts. I didn't realize when I bought the mill just how support works. I guess with all manufacturers, not just WM. I did post a number of pictures along with a lot of notes. My intention was to elicit some sort of feedback that would help me not only with my mill but with dealing with WM.

I stated a few times along the way and will do so again here. The people I have spoke at WM to have been very friendly. I get the impression that they genuinely want to help me.

To the question on why WM had me ratchet the arm inward. There is a bearing that rides down the right hand rail. It should go straight down the middle. Because of the twist in the arm, it actually wants to ride off the right hand side. The ratchet process does not fix the underlying problem. It simply tries to move that bearing more to the left so that it has farther to go before riding off the rail.

WM has also had me try to twist that arm. I took an 18" plumbers wrench and a 6 foot metal bar and twisted counter clockwise twice as far as the current clockwise twist. Unfortunately, when released, it went back to its original position. Fall Line Ridge posted a YouTube video where he describes two WM techs spending several hours performing a similar procedure on his LT15. They were unable to completely eliminate the twist but were able to "mostly" eliminate it.

My last email to WM has been forwarded to management.

I believe most of what I've described above is in previous posts. What has worked for me in the interim is to run a bead of transmission fluid along that right hand rail. The bearing now has a harder time getting a grip and "slips and slides" its way.


 

[AbbyR]

 I would suggest driving it the 90 miles. Where I live, 90 miles is nothing. Help them make it right.

I may end up doing that, depending on their response to my last email. On an earlier call, they said I could take it to Newnan and drop it off. That would be two days of travel. As noted above, I had no clue when I bought the mill that my participation in a warranty repair would be so involved. I balked at the suggestion when it was originally made and wanted them to come here.
If I can't find another way to get this fixed here, that might get put back on the table. I intend on having this mill til I die and would rather it be "right". Let's hope they send one of their roving tech crews by here and this becomes a moot issue.

[AbbyR]

I agree that a manufacturer should stand behind their product. I think the problem for the Forum becomes when people think it is their own personal loudspeaker to try and get the result they are pushing for. I've never once seen that work here, I've probably been on here over 15 years. The Facebook sites are full of that kind of stuff, maybe try there🤷‍♂️

Heard. I did post a lot of pictures and descriptions. I only mixed in the bitching as a seasoning - not a full course. I've a fair amount of experience with other forums and you'll often see manufacturers at least monitoring popular sites. I'll admit I hoped this was the case here.

If I wanted to do the personal loudspeaker thing, I guess I could do like Fall Line Ridge and post a video on Youtube  :laugh:. In his own words, "They bent over backwards trying to figure out who I was so they could contact me".

[YellowHammer]

As I understand it, the issue is that the bearing does not ride axially down the track so tries to "walk off."   This is presumably caused by the downtube coming out of alignment when it was welded.  

Anyway,
You said you were looking for "suggestions."  So here are mine.  It's been a year, nothing has happened, nothing has changed, things are at a standstill, so it seems you have several options.

Fix it, sell it, or work with WM.

So work on the bearing alignment itself instead of the downtube.  Why don't you just shim the bearing bolt, or adjust or elongate the holes, or whatever, so that the bearing is aligned with the rail instead of trying to twist the downtube?  Or bend the bolt a few degrees, or any number of things to adjust the alignment of the bearing.  You could even move the bearing to the outside of the down tube and remount it.  I had an LT15 many years ago for the pure reason it was sturdy, simple and yet easy to modify, and did lots of modifications to mine.  It's a very basic design.  So adjust the mount and align the bearing.    

I personally don't see twisting the steel downtube a viable option, the force required could easily damage or torque the head and in reality the issue is that a $10 bearing isn't aligned properly with the side rail.  So focus on the bearing, not the down tube.  I don't remember exactly how the bearing was mounted, but I'm sure it was nothing more than a bolt and a few washers...

Or sell the mill.

I also think that if I only lived 90 miles away, and was aggravated enough, I wouldn't hesitate to have a face to face.  I would hop in my vehicle and drive there with or without the mill.  Set up a meeting, talk to them in person, and come up with a plan that you or they can execute.  2 hour drive, 1 hour meeting, 2 hours back.  Half a day.  Or put the head in the back of your truck, drive there and have them adjust it.  Pre-coordinate so that they are ready when you get there and they can work on it immediately.  Then, it they can't fix it in a day, while you are there, it would be in plain sight of the folks there and they could come up with options to help.  If I remember correctly, the entire mill fit in the back of my shortbed pickup truck.

Comparing the warranty of a $5K mill to a $50K car is not a fair comparison.  A better comparison would be like comparing it to a warranty issue on a $5K riding lawn mower.  I would expect to have to take it to the the lawnmower dealer for work, warranty or not.  Transportation costs for warranty work is not uncommon, I was pricing a $100K JCB Track Loader, and would have to pay by the mile for the service team to come to me for warranty work, about a $1,000 for each trip.

[SawyerTed]

Yellowhammer summed it up pretty well.  I say call the dealer, schedule your repair, load the head up on a trailer and take it to them.

A new car under warranty with a defect would still have to be returned to a dealership for repair.  This is also true for cars out of warranty but under recall.

Woodmizer offered to repair the mill with the expectation that you take it to their shop.  Given that their shop will have experienced personnel and the tools and equipment necessary to evaluate and repair the problem, I believe that to be a reasonable expectation.  Expecting a technician to do the repairs in your backyard is like expecting a surgeon to remove your gall bladder on your kitchen table.  

Here's an additional .02 worth.  When I went for training and to pick up my first mill from the Woodmizer dealer, the hydraulic valve body developed a leak.  We noticed it prior to hitching the mill to my truck.  My buddy and I decided to go eat lunch while the technician diagnosed the problem.

Turned out one of the valves had a casting flaw.  The whole valve body had to be replaced.  That delayed taking delivery on the mill for about 3 days. 

Was I happy?  No.  Did I rant and rave about it? No.  Did I clearly express my concerns?  Yes.  Did I give Woodmizer a chance to make it right?  Absolutely, and here is why.  I figured to be sawmilling for many years and I would need the support of the dealer along the way.  As it turned out, I've gotten very good support and am remembered for having been cordial regarding my disappointment.  The owner of the dealership was very concerned that I was a satisfied customer and I gave him a chance to meet that expectation.

[AbbyR]

So work on the bearing alignment itself instead of the downtube.  Why don't you just shim the bearing bolt, or adjust or elongate the holes, or whatever, so that the bearing is aligned with the rail instead of trying to twist the downtube?  

I personally don't see twisting the steel downtube a viable option, the force required could easily damage or torque the head

Or sell the mill.

Comparing the warranty of a $5K mill to a $50K car is not a fair comparison.  A better comparison would be like comparing it to a warranty issue on a $5K riding lawn mower.  

I'll have to look and see exactly how that bearing is mounted. I do know it's by a single bolt but obviously there would have to be something within that arm to receive the other end. From what I now know, this may be the way to go.
Agreed on the potential damage though this seems to be the method WM themselves used on Fall Line Ridge's LT15.
I would be concerned about selling a mill with a known defect. At the very least, it would affect the price I could get.
Heard. A more thorough reading of the warranty suggests that very thing. I got sucked in by the verbiage on the main page and didn't read the fine print on a different page.

[Stephen1]

Good responses. If you take the mill to WM and they can not fix it at their shop its under warranty and thier problem now. When it's in your back yard it's your problem.

[Old Greenhorn]

It's been a while and I was wondering how you are making out with this issue?