Why isn't there a good marketplace for lumber?

[Neolith]

Hey everyone, I'm an engineer by trade with a hobbyist interest in the forestry industry. I love this site (longtime lurker) and have learned a bunch from everyone on here. One thing that I've been thinking about is that 

1. Lots of people post frequently about having trouble even knowing how to find customers, let alone advertise to them
2. Some mills like the idea of selling wholesale but don't have enough volume
3. There are people who need Species XYZ but the only people who have it are an entire region away
4. A species will go for one price here but then for a completely different (often better! ) price in the wild blue yonder

In light of all this, why isn't there some kind of online marketplace for people buying and selling lumber? I'm imagining something where people can list their products, upload pictures, have specs (grade, dimensions, etc), and have buyers bid on the lumber. On the other side of the coin, wholesalers and the like could say they want such-and-such kind of lumber with such-and-such kind of quality, and see who is offering what prices.

This way, people can

1. Find buyers and sellers, they're all in one place
2. Combine the output of several mills to fulfill wholesale orders (and the wholesale guy knows he's getting the best price across every region)
3. Get access to buying/selling lumber that was previously unaccessible
4. Put in an order for 5/4 6" wide oak and see exactly what prices mills would offer

Am I missing something, or does a good version of this already exist? All the online lumber websites I could find are...less-than-perfect options (fixed prices, no bidding, no grade details, no delivery, no performance guarantee).

[moodnacreek]

When 'woodmizers' got really popular I remember reading about a coop store where small time sawmillers stocked the store and somebody ran it, it failed.  Small time producers [like me] don't all do it the same. There are commercial specifications that many of us ignore. For instance I saw hardwood to pine specs. Then there are established grades for individual species and then there is moisture content. People sawing by hand cannot really compete with a mechanized and inspected operation. Big operations can control stain, dip lumber and sticker without touching a board and forklift it in the kiln. Little guys have to find there own niche.  In most cases you must sell to the end user yourself.

[Southside]

Welcome to the Forum.  It sounds like you are trying to create the middle man - the internet eliminated that position in many instances thankfully.  Smaller mills don't compete in the wholesale market because they can't, the numbers just don't work.  Trying to get several mills to work together to sell a product for the lowest possible price?  Ummm - don't think I will join that group.  There are lumber yards in Africa where a guy can flip through a stack of Ipe all day long and the Southern Yellow Pine is kept behind a secure door - location, location, location along with supply and demand all add up to give you the price difference you speak of.    

[Neolith]

When 'woodmizers' got really popular I remember reading about a coop store where small time sawmillers stocked the store and somebody ran it, it failed.  Small time producers [like me] don't all do it the same. There are commercial specifications that many of us ignore. For instance I saw hardwood to pine specs. Then there are established grades for individual species and then there is moisture content. People sawing by hand cannot really compete with a mechanized and inspected operation. Big operations can control stain, dip lumber and sticker without touching a board and forklift it in the kiln. Little guys have to find there own niche.  In most cases you must sell to the end user yourself.

Oh, I didn't know so many people did retail! So would it be correct to say that your Weyerhaeusers, Georgia Pacifics, and Biewers take up the wholesale side of the market, and the smaller mills take the retail side? Where do retailers like Home Depot fit inside the competitive environment? 

Trying to get several mills to work together to sell a product for the lowest possible price?  Ummm - don't think I will join that group.

Well, when you put it that way Southside, a marketplace doesn't sound like the best idea.... :D Good point. So when all these sawyers ask about how to find business, the answer usually lies in their immediate location?

Funny you mention the internet. I feel like compared to other industries, forestry hasn't seen big changes from it (though in some ways that could be for the better :). I do wonder what the next big thing will be.

[rusticretreater]

I think that the small guys would immediately be put in the box of defending their prices as the big guys hammer them with economy of scale pricing.

There are still lots of folks who want local wood, know the guy who cuts it, would prefer to give their money to a hard working fella, and get see and hear about the wood before they buy.  I know I would.

If you visit the big box hardware stores you will notice their wood is not all that great.  The manufactured stuff like plywood or osb, sure its good.  But the rest of the wood is for the homeowners and handyman businesses.  Their best woods(usually red oak) is crazy expensive compared to locally sourced wood.  Other than pressure treated wood and manufactured products, I am pretty much appalled by it all.

[Crossroads]

Personally, I'm not interested in trying to sell to the guy looking for the cheapest board he can buy. I want to sell to the guy looking for a custom cut product and is willing to pay a little extra to buy lumber with a story. For example, a friend from church passed away last year and his kids contacted me about milling some 1x8's so they  could build him the "box" he wanted to be buried in. When they found out that the wood that I provided came from the property next door to their parents place, they were actually excited. This may not be a great example though because I wouldn't accept any money. It was an honor to be a part of his last wishes

[Ianab]

The larger mills and distributors have the wholesale market pretty well organised. But they aren't dealing with the oddball species / custom sizes / special orders or "locally produced". When you are dealing with container loads of wood, distance isn't really an issue an more, so you buy lumber in the US that's sourced from New Zealand / Chile / Scandinavia etc

No way a small operator is going to get into that market, (unless they become a big operator). 

The other issue is that taking a tree to a graded / dry / dimensioned board is a lot of stages and work, and then actually selling that product retail is a whole other side of the business. How many steps in the process can you be involved in? 

There might be more opportunity to work with other small operators in different fields? (rather than competing). A local local timber company I sometimes do IT work for doesn't operate a sawmill at all, and don't do retail sales. They buy rough sawed lumber from local mills and dry / treat / machine / finger-joint / pre-prime it into high end building material that's wholesaled to building supply stores and also exported. But no sawmill, and no retail store (just all stages in between) 

Most of the smaller operators have worked to find a Niche that's not otherwise being catered to. 

[longtime lurker]

Trying to organise a group of sawmillers to work together is like trying to herd cats... everyone wants to be an individual.

Look I've had the same idea for years, and theoretically it could work particularly for one off niche items like big live edge slabs, tone woods, super figured pieces suit box making or turning or one off custom jobs.

The issues would be many... Who's responsible when the timber you purchased from the other side of the world isn't what you paid for... it's got pinhole borer damage or the MC isn't as advertised. Just a few bad apples will spoil your barrel, so you'd need an escrow payment system to ensure your buyers aren't shafted. You'd need to change a listing fee, or you'd be inundated with the same 50 bits of junk from one seller every other day.

The real issue with long distance/ small volume is actually transport and logistics. Container loads are easy, same with small packages, but Ive lost probably 4 hours in the last week trying to arrange 3 packs of timber from here to out of the way spot near Adelaide...  and I've got a phone list of reliable transport operators to begin with. If it was a trailer load it'd be there by now.

If you want commodity lumber or logs try Alibaba, they already cover that. I've bought and sold a few logs that way, no complaints but again - transport and logistics and phytosanitary compliance -  there's an investment of time that rules it out for a one off sale and a lot of the time there are minimum requirements of a couple containers.

Plenty of markets out there anyway, it's just a matter of cutting a good board for a fair price and delivery on time and customers will find you.

[Stephen1]

This forum represents people from around the world. How can my price needs here in Ontario compare to prices in the USA or Australia? The southern USA can saw wood all year long, I need a building to saw wood in our winter. Sure we can saw in the winter but production is way down so costs are higher. I need a heated building to Kiln Dry in the IDRY kiln. Some one with no winter can leave their Kiln outside, little to no overhead. As LL says transport kills you. 

[customsawyer]

I work with a couple of other local sawmills. In a little bit of different way then you are suggesting but it works. They are good operations and I have faith that they are making a good product. If I have a customer asking for something that I don't have or something I don't want to cut I give the customers the phone number to the mill I feel is best to fill the order. They all send work my way for similar reasons. I don't think any of us would be comfortable in doing something like you are suggesting. It don't read like a bad idea. I just think it best we each stay in our own wheel house.

[kantuckid]

This forum represents people from around the world. How can my price needs here in Ontario compare to prices in the USA or Australia? The southern USA can saw wood all year long, I need a building to saw wood in our winter. Sure we can saw in the winter but production is way down so costs are higher. I need a heated building to Kiln Dry in the IDRY kiln. Some one with no winter can leave their Kiln outside, little to no overhead. As LL says transport kills you.

Not to argue, as I get your point, but Canada as a country complains loudly when the USA places tariffs on your lumber. In spite of those tariffs and the transport you mention, Canadian lumber (SPF) still is commonly sold here in the USA at a very long distance from where it's extracted. 
I suppose those trucks carry back something when they head north. Those US tariffs were just cut in half the past few days. I just now looked-the USA trade with Canada is more than twice that of our trade with China and Mexico trade also exceeds Chinese trade to the USA. My point is it seems to be working at a high level in spite of the issues involved. 

[YellowHammer]

First rule of marketing. 
If you are trying to manufacture and sell something, you don't tell the customer there is a bunch of competitors which have something similar or just as good for the same or less price.

Ford and Chevy don't join forces to have a unified market publication.  Even dealers with the same vehicles compete on price against each other.

However, Auto Trader, Amazon, and other companies do what you are proposing, but they get their money from from a fee, not the product, and don't care if two business cut each other's throat and one goes under.

Working with other companies works well, I do it all the time, but never work with a competitor company who is directly competing against my bread and butter products.  I'm trying to feed my kids not theirs.   

[Beavertooth]

I don't sell or buy lumber personally I just custom saw for others. But if you are wanting an online market place to sell your  lumber and also to see what lumber others are looking to buy you need to check out Woodplanet. You can place any lumber you have to sell on the website and it is seen instantly all over the world by anyone who looks. And people from all over the United States and the world are always posting what lumber they are looking to buy in the RFQ (Request For Quote) section. The offers to sell and buy are anywhere from just a few boards to shipping containers full every month. Hopefully this will help sell some lumber for some of the Forestry Forum family.  

[WV Sawmiller]

  Interesting concept and discussion. I don't have the equipment or skills to do the custom drying and finish work many of the other members here on the forum do. I do sell a little green or air dried live edge lumber/slabs and I will do custom sawing and oddball sizes in my area. Every piece is unique. While I can see standardized prices for structural wood, much of which will be covered or painted and not on actual display, I can easily see each unique piece being priced differently. I have no intention of trying to price my product according to what others are willing to sell their product for. The hard part is arguing with myself about what each piece is worth knowing there will never be another just like it. :

[GAB]

The ones I do not care for are the ones that have not seen the product and are trying to get you to lower your price.  Depending on how I feel at the time it's either the road is over there and you'd best get on it quick, or you a just a tire kicker and you're wasting my time.  Good bye!
GAB

[kantuckid]

Based on another lumber market article I just read at lunchtime today, there is a still descending market for building lumber. As interest rates go up, down goes demand. The experts state that they doubt it will reach the $200 to 400 MBF levels once seen but it's going way down considering the cost to produce it. My point is there may soon not be a good marketplace for lumber based upon the market itself.
Box stores sell to a plastic card which hurts the lumber I have for sale now as I'm a cash guy. They say that Americans are currently using an all-time record number of active CC's. That alone affects a small producer's ability to sell a few boards. 

[Menagerie-Manor]

Before purchasing my Mill I made numerous attempts to utilize local sources of lumber but ultimately every private source was unreliable and that tends to pith me off after trying to establish an honest business relationship. We have a local established Port Orford cedar mill that ships just cedar all over that I've used often but the son took over and I'm not feeling it.

[moodnacreek]

Before purchasing my Mill I made numerous attempts to utilize local sources of lumber but ultimately every private source was unreliable and that tends to pith me off after trying to establish an honest business relationship. We have a local established Port Orford cedar mill that ships just cedar all over that I've used often but the son took over and I'm not feeling it.

Repeat customers need reliable sources even if it cost a little more. They have already been burned by others. These are the customers you can earn over the years and they will keep you in business.   When I used to go north for white cedar the other locals tried to sell me their wood cheaper and keep me out of the yard I was buying from but that yard was reliable and I would not stray.

[Menagerie-Manor]

Before purchasing my Mill I made numerous attempts to utilize local sources of lumber but ultimately every private source was unreliable and that tends to pith me off after trying to establish an honest business relationship. We have a local established Port Orford cedar mill that ships just cedar all over that I've used often but the son took over and I'm not feeling it.

Repeat customers need reliable sources even if it cost a little more. They have already been burned by others. These are the customers you can earn over the years and they will keep you in business.   When I used to go north for white cedar the other locals tried to sell me their wood cheaper and keep me out of the yard I was buying from but that yard was reliable and I would not stray.

Absolutly100%, price is not normally my concern, I use a Doug Fir Mill a 4 hour round trip for me when I want old growth vertical grain DF. It's expensive but the real deal and absolutely gorgeous material.