Portage and Main Outdoor Wood Furnace, new machine, details few

[chosenfrozen]

We bought a new Portage and Main. Shaker Grate Outdoor Wood Furnace.

It is to replace a 25 year old Central Boiler.

I cannot believe a machine of this price and complexity has no details.

Just to start, there is not even a water quantity. The only instructions, are to fill until full.
A simple example of the shape of water jacket, my goodness. The rear panel has several different iterations.
Not a single one, including several videos on dealers ( I believe manufacturer also) website, matches what I have on my back panel.

Today, I looked at water level, as a new set of radiators was added.
The indicator was a few cm above the add line. Was going to wait as it was above Add line. I was compelled to tap the top of Gauge. I was then shocked to discover the float was already on the tank bottom.

I have now spent 2 days going from one website to another. Forum postings , the most current was 2018.

So, I am looking for anyone who owns one, that may have some details.
\thanks.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum. 
This is not your first rodeo, so wondering if you are finding a big difference between the Central Boiler and the Portage and Main. Been several years since I was helping set one up, and was pretty impressed with that one. Not recalling enough to lend a hand. What differences are you finding? 

Some pics of yours will help.

 Is there no dealer involved in this purchase? 

[chosenfrozen]

Insulation is the biggest difference.

The Central Boiler needed also to fight significant heat loss through the steel walls.
After -30 the fire really needed to be watched. A fire burnt to low, or a bad stoke, and it would take hours for the water to heat again.

This Portage and Main. It has very little heat loss.

I know I have used far less wood, but due to some very weird happenstance. I will have to wait until snow is gone. Furnace didn't get here until very very very late in season, wood pile, needed to be bobcatted out of way to plant new boiler.

I had wood 8 cords delivered, and 3 or 4 from last year. All I have is piles of snow and wood all over.

Basically we have gone from a cranky boiler that frequently left us cool, and needed a lot of attention.
To a system trustworthy enough for me to go to town in the morning, and know that if I decide to stay for supper, I will have a hassle free evening, the house will be warm, water still hot.

A dealer... long story, but yes. (I believe the dealer is also manufacturer)
I am actually afraid what the response would be if I asked them anything.
My assumption is a big communication failure caused some real excitement.


A personal phone call to the boss, some swearing at customer, customer asking two questions.

The word "what" repeated louder and louder, to the people obviously with him in office. Call ended.
The amazing paper trail was solved in seconds, with a couple of e-mails. If I had to guess, the boiler was also loaded and dispatched as fast as possible.


Continues to this day. Total embarrassed silence.  

[beenthere]

Sounds like you need to mend some "fences" to move forward. 

Hope you don't try to use the Forestry Forum to get any revenge on the P&M company. Also, sounds like your wood is not very dry, and that will have an effect on how well an OWF or OWB will perform. 
Which brings me to the question.. Is it a boiler or a furnace? From what I gather, a boiler heats water and the water is pumped through the exchangers to distribute the hot water, and a furnace heats air that is moved through the plenums to a distribute to a location.

My boiler that heated this home for 40 years was one with a 9 gallon water jacket, that was pumped out to three zones to heat the house. Dry wood (oak seasoned minimum of three years, ash two years) was most important to maintain 150 to 180 degree hot water. Never a leak, only had some stress cracks near the fire. 

Envied those who had the P&M OWB but it came at a cost. 

[chosenfrozen]

ah, the wood. Black Spruce. By quantity alone, there just isn't room to have cords seasoning.

At 10 cords a year, that alone takes a lot of room. 

A gov't wanting to clear millions of beetle killed areas. And just a climate that supports little else. 
The CentralB, was a stupendous creosote fountain. Ooozed and dribbled. Chimney needed constant replacing.

I can tell it is going to be a constant for me. The ash pan is already cemented in. Takes forever to pry it out.

I have temp turned up to 185F, that helped a bit. 

Here is where I become curious. Do I really need that ash pan? By the time I had cleaned ash 3 or 4 times, it is bent and beaten up.
I mentioned the water gauge. What is the shape of the tank? How is it insulated? The back panel, every photo or video shows a different configuration. What is the actual capacity of the water jacket? Why is there no discussion on-line? Every product has some social media presence. 

So, just looking for any owners who may help solve my curiosity.   

Revenge, for what?
This seems like quite efficient machine, impressed so far. Only 2 nights have reached below -30C. 

As for fences, I would be curious as what happened. 
I have all I need, a wonderful reliable heating system. 
I am sure this business experience was a one off, but since I have not been contacted to explain, what I found astoundingly shocking. I will probably have to find any need support elsewhere.

[chosenfrozen]

Never noticed your other question.

It is what I would define as an outdoor wood fired boiler.

Their title.

Shaker Grate Outdoor Water Furnace.

I had never seen a boiler referred to as a "Water Furnace" before.

[chet]

Is your furnace an actual Portage and Main furnace, or something else? What is the model number? That would help out a bunch for any suggestions.  Can you post a pic of the manufacturers tag that is on the unit?

[chosenfrozen]

B



model BL-25 Shaker

[chet]

Their website says the water capacity of your unit is 60 gallons.

[chosenfrozen]

lol, well the last place I would look is a brochure. Thanks.

This is the only place I can find with this type info.
Sort of makes my point.

Their brochure has more (far more) technical information, than the operating manual.

[gspren]

I had a Portage & Main for 12+ years when we had the farm and I believe it is still operating for the new owners, very nice OWB. As to the float for monitoring water level it didn't last long nor did the replacement. Mine was older so not sure of your configuration but mine had a simple pipe nipple sticking out the top with a cap that held the float. I removed the float mechanism and used a piece of smooth pine board 3/4 x 1 1/5 x 24". The board extended about 18" and hit the top of the fire box, I marked it at a good high level for hot water where it wouldn't over flow and then when it cooled down I marked it for low level cold. I used boiler antifreeze in mine because I frequently shut it down for a week or longer when away.

[gspren]

  I just studied your picture and it does look just like mine except with the additional outer door, float looks identical. If the top door accesses a horizontal smoke passage that comes up in the back comes forward into a 180 degree turn and the exits the back like mine did you should know that I frequently put potatoes wrapped in foil there for good baked potatoes and meat in a small pan loosely covered with foil will also cook with a nice smoke added depending on what you burn. 

[chosenfrozen]

Smoker, never thought of that. But no, black spruce, which drools creosote.

That outside door, as an addition is great. Insulation.

So, any idea on the shape of the water jacket? Sides of firebox? All the way under? Just around the smoke heat exchanger passages? It feels like the float tube hits that heat exchanger.

Filling the water jacket. I have no plumbing that far from house (yes yes, should have put in waterline with the boiler lines). So I used the garden hose, using that same float tube. It filled to the brim, a few cups spilled before I shut off, and a few more when I put the float back in. The gauge showed it full to top. I lit fire and wandered off. I expected the water to expand a bit  and spill a bit more as it warmed. Checking to make sure overflow wasnt excessive. I was puzzled to see the level indicator dropped a lot, at just above the "fill line". I monitored it, as I crawled around under my charming 18" crawlspace, looking for the leak. Hours of wiggling about, I was again puzzled, the float showed it still at just above fill. No leaking anywhere I could find, and it seemed to have stopped anyhow.
I waited a day, the level had not changed, so I decided to refill. Same thing, indicated full, then a few hours later, back down to just above "Fill line". There it has stayed all winter.  

The shape of the tank. Did the water leak from boiler? Is there an auto drain to not overfill it? Do I have a leak in house or trench? How close to "Fill Line" is safe?

I finally got the tray out from the ash portal. After 3rd day it had been pasted in there, I ended up just bending the front of it to clear out ashes using tool.
The weather has warmed up enough for me to let the entire thing cool down and I got something flat and long enough to pry/pop the tray out.

So, is this tray a key component? Is using tool provided enough? Again, there is nothing in instructions that even mentions the area, one line stating to remove ashes otherwise they will block damper. There is not even a diagram describing the front.  

[chosenfrozen]

Sounds like you need to mend some "fences" to move forward.


Envied those who had the P&M OWB but it came at a cost.

................................

They have ignored a couple of attempts to contact them. It is a nice machine. I am still shocked, but reviewing all the documents and videos, it is obvious they have no info either. I really have no reason to even peer over the fence. 


Now , you said it came at a cost ,what cost does it come with? Besides the $12k

[melezefarmer]

Currently looking into getting an outdoor boiler myself. I stumbled onto these two brochures for the Portage & Main units:

https://www.strawbalefarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Strawbalefarms-Ultimizer_Coal_Shaker_Grate_Water_Furnace_Brochure_092316-2.pdf

https://store-chub6yb.mybigcommerce.com/content/ULTIMIZER%20WOOD%20BROCHURE%202016.pdf

[gspren]

To add water without having a supply near the boiler you can put a tee fitting into the cold or return line and then with a valve there run from the valve to cold water supply in house. Only problem with filling from house is not being able to watch gauge so you need to learn how much water you get with say 15 seconds of open or have someone else watch the gauge.

[chosenfrozen]

Currently looking into getting an outdoor boiler myself. I stumbled onto these two brochures for the Portage & Main units:

https://www.strawbalefarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Strawbalefarms-Ultimizer_Coal_Shaker_Grate_Water_Furnace_Brochure_092316-2.pdf

https://store-chub6yb.mybigcommerce.com/content/ULTIMIZER%20WOOD%20BROCHURE%202016.pdf

Never seen their brochures until recently. The one I we have is the Model BL-25. 

[chosenfrozen]

To add water without having a supply near the boiler you can put a tee fitting into the cold or return line and then with a valve there run from the valve to cold water supply in house. Only problem with filling from house is not being able to watch gauge so you need to learn how much water you get with say 15 seconds of open or have someone else watch the gauge.

I installed the tee, I just don't have the trench/insulation needed for the waterline. 

[gspren]

To add water without having a supply near the boiler you can put a tee fitting into the cold or return line and then with a valve there run from the valve to cold water supply in house. Only problem with filling from house is not being able to watch gauge so you need to learn how much water you get with say 15 seconds of open or have someone else watch the gauge.

I installed the tee, I just don't have the trench/insulation needed for the waterline.

That part is all inside.

[chet]

I installed a tee and shutoff valve right on the side arm for the water heater. Been topping off my boiler for 25 plus years, works great. 

[chosenfrozen]

When I got the Central Boiler, the only convenient way to fill, was using frost-proof outdoor faucets. So, when given the chance, I didn't plumb it in anyway.
Better yet, taken the underground insulated pipe, that included a 1/2" pex feed line.
The temperatures can get a bit extreme.

[chet]

I'm not sure you understand where my tee is for filling, it's in my house.  Like I said mine is on my water heater sidearm. You could just as easily connect it to your outgoing line from your heat exchanger to your furnace. There is no fill line running out to your furnace. You are tapping into one of the existing lines that is already installed. I do shut off the pumps while I add water.

[thecfarm]

chet, that's where mine is too. 
I had someone install mine. I did the simple stuff, put in lines and put a hole into my basement wall.
I shut off one valve and turn another one on. 
I have a heatmor and watch when it comes out the top. 
I have not used the valve for a while. I just fill it up with a garden hose.

[chosenfrozen]

I'm not sure you understand where my tee is for filling, it's in my house.  Like I said mine is on my water heater sidearm. You could just as easily connect it to your outgoing line from your heat exchanger to your furnace. There is no fill line running out to your furnace. You are tapping into one of the existing lines that is already installed. I do shut off the pumps while I add water.

OMG, why have I never seen this before, it is so obvious.
I have all the tools, even piping.
The Central Boiler guide showed its fill , using a drain valve. The guy who installed it for us, oh so long ago. Installed a frost-proof faucet and filled it through that. I just continued over the years, but saved a step, just filling through the top.

I will have explore, only have 2 more days of wood left