Liability, Waiver, CYA.....?

[Dad2FourWI]

My son brought this up the other day..... what if "Bill" the property owner gets a chip in the eye from our mill? Bill is paying us to mill his logs and he is helping out off-bearing boards or something close enough to the mill to get hurt by flying debris.....

We are VERY careful on the maintenance of our mill but we all understand the odd knot or split in our log might behave in a way that we had no clue would happen!!!!!

Do we worry about these things? Do we have clients sign disclaimers or something to prevent them from holding us responsible for some unforeseen event happening and injuring them as they help out?????

Any and all discussion is appreciated!,
-Dad2FourWI

[terrifictimbersllc]

Sawyer care to keep persons safe distance and right places
Safety glasses
Liability insurance
Waiver

PS these are listed in my order of usefulness/importance for this situation asked about

[Magicman]

Yes. I always have the customer to sign my Sawing Contract which details all of the sawing charges, lumber scaling method, and the safety/injury waver.  I have modified it several times but the basics are the same.

Mine is two part; the customer gets the lower portion and I retain the upper.

Sawing Contract

[WV Sawmiller]

   I agree with TT but actually think a Waiver of Liability is nearly useless. If someone gets hurt any semi-decent shyster lawyer (Is that an oxy-moron for you) will make a case against the sawyer who certainly should have know the wind was going to shift and blow that sawdust in the helper's eye.

 

[YellowHammer]

Get a business umbrella policy, don't tell anyone, and as soon as someone is about to get hurt doing something stupid, yell real loud, "You can't get hurt, I don't have insurance!" :D :D  It's worked for me....

I have had people get injured in my other job and although waivers and paperwork helps, but the additional kicker against any claims of negligence also included informing employees to wear safety equipment, having basic PP&E supplied to them, like safety glasses, and them not using them.  As one lawyer told me, it's a classic "Lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink."  I always had a box of cheap safety glasses, gloves and foam hearing protection ready for employees and informed them they needed to use them.  If they didn't, then they are voluntarily violating safety protocols and it really takes the sting out of any claims they may have.  Typically, the conversation with our Safety Officer would go like this: "You explained the hazards?  They signed the SOP?  You had PPE on site ready for them to use?  You told them to use it?  They voluntarily didn't and got hurt?"

Sure, you can still get sued, but with that information, your insurance company will eat their lunch on any claim.  Notice I said "Your insurance company" because when you get an umbrella business policy, you have just hired every lawyer they your insurance company employs, and as I was told once by my insurance lawyer "We hire the meanest, most vicious lawyers in the business, and if their lawyers come after our money, they will regret it." Yeah, people think insurance lawyers are wolves suing for your money, but if you have an umbrella policy, you now have an army of even meaner lawyers fighting back. 

Just cover all the bases.

[jasonb]

shyster lawyer (Is that an oxy-moron for you

Not an oxy-moron.  It is redundant.

[fluidpowerpro]

Even with a waiver, you still would need to hire a lawyer to defend yourself. The lawyer the other guy has is being paid by a percentage of what they get from you, so why not sue.
Get yourself a general liability policy.
Protect your assets.
Sleep better at night.

[Dad2FourWI]

Thank you ALL!!!

Magic Man, I will be carefully reading over your document tonight!! Much appreciated!

I won't have what I need for tomorrow's business... we will just have to keep any gawkers back a ways!!  :D

-Dad2FourWI

[WV Sawmiller]

shyster lawyer (Is that an oxy-moron for you

Not an oxy-moron.  It is redundant.

You left off the term "Semi-decent" in front of "shyster lawyer". That was what makes it an Oxy-moron IMHO. :D

[YellowHammer]

I remember when I was up for a very big claim against me, and when I went to talk to my insurance lawyers assigned to my case, they said something I'll never forget.

"Mr. Milton, they may be suing you, but all you do is pay the premiums.  That's our money they're after, and they're not going to get it.  Period."  Yeah baby, that's what I wanted to hear.  

[Magicman]

Magic Man, I will be carefully reading over your document tonight!! Much appreciated!

I believe that is probably my original and it has been modified/edited several times since it was written. 

You should re-write it to match your sawing profile and then have your attorney read and approve it.

[Dad2FourWI]

@Magicman Ahhh, ok, thanks and I will proceed accordingly.

What's the old saying...."An old dog only gets older when he stops learning new tricks"... !

[Ianab]

Liability cover is almost essential under the US legal system. Someone could be injured completely by accident, just tripping over while carrying a board or something, and insurance lawyers will be looking for someone to blame.  The liability cover means that any claim against you has to go via your insurance company and their trained attack lawyers. They could even decide it's a legit claim, maybe something did unexpectedly fly off the mill at 100 mph and take someones eye out. In that case your insurance should pay out and cover your butt. But frivolous claims they will reject, and as the legal team are on salary, they will happily go to court if that's needed.  

I'd suggest that rather than a basic waiver, you set it up as a short "safety briefing". Spend a couple of minutes going over a brief list of dos and don'ts around the mill site. Check / supply  safety gear, and have the helpers sign that they have heard / read the safety notes.  More like a pre-flight safety thing you get on the airliner. 

Under NZ law you would be more likely to get pinged by OSH if someone was hurt. Accident insurance is universal, everyone is covered for ANY accidental injury. But if it's your worksite and you didn't take "reasonable steps" to avoid the risk, you can end up in court. "Reasonable" is things like warning signs, guards, safety gear and briefings, AND calling someone out if you see them about to do something stupid. Doing all that stuff would also make your insurance company lawyers much happier if there were to be an accident. 

[OlJarhead]

This is what I have in my contract:

hazardous. Customer shall be responsible for conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber. It shall be Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area. Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this Agreement on behalf of all interested parties.

[Southside]

The more I think about it old Billy was right...  

[OlJarhead]

I'm wondering who you get your policy from?  I've looked off and on and have a policy on my property etc but need to get an umbrella policy too me thinks.

[blackhawk]

Do any of you have troubling getting customers to actually sign their name on a contract.  I made a contract based on Magicman's version.  My first two customers that I asked to sign the contract would not sign.  They didn't actually outright refuse but I had emailed the contract to both of them and they ignored the email.  I followed up before the job with either a text or email again and was ignored a 2nd time.  Both times the customer did not help me so it wasn't a huge issue.  I did both jobs and the customers were pleased.  I felt like if I demanded them to sign, I wouldn't have gotten the jobs.  I do have an insurance policy. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   I have never yet had a customer sign a contract. I prepared one and showed it to my lawyer and had him review it before I started my business. He said it was legal and would hold up in court but that any such document could be challenged in court by any customer in today's society. 

    (Amazingly for a lawyer  :D  he did not charge me for his review and told me when I got my mill to call him as he had some logs he wanted me to saw. I have sawed for him many times since then.)

   My customers are mostly rural, down to earth, working class folks and their word is better than any signature on a piece of paper. I have never had one try to stiff me on a sawing job. I always have a folder full of blank contracts with me when I travel to a sawing job but have never had a customer ask for one. If he did I would probably be suspicious as he would be of me if I asked him to sign one.

[OlJarhead]

I've never had a customer NOT sign.  However, I'm clear and upfront with everything and I bring a physical copy with me for them to sign and I keep the signed copy.

If they refused to sign, I'd simply pack up and leave.  I'm not risking them not paying me and me having no way to go after them.  I'd rather lose the time and fuel than mill 16hrs and leave without pay.

On a side note, I've often forgotten my contract and offered a handshake which is always accepted.

[WV Sawmiller]

Eric,

   I will readily admit having a signed contract in hand before starting is a better, safer policy than a simple handshake but I am a risk taker. You must remember though we are in feuding territory and long term fights have been started over a pig so people are careful to be respectful to each other. :D 

   I am not typically traveling the distances you do so the people I am sawing for are basically neighbors or at least we have common associates. More and more I am getting work by word of mouth from referral from prior customers. It does not get any better than that as I and they are already vetted by a trusted friend. Maybe this is a difference between west and east coast customers. It is certainly a difference between sawing for country/rural vs city/urban customers.

   Many times I have sold lumber to people and when I'd tell them the price and ask for a deposit, more often than not they sent me a check for the entire amount. Several such customers I still have never even met. I cut and delivered their ordered sight unseen and just got an e-mail later thanking me. A couple of times I miscalculated and undercharged. When I notified the customer they immediately sent me a check or dropped off the cash. I remember once we double counted some lumber (the customer's error) and he called me and I immediately sent him a check for the refund. I have one customer on my backlog I'll saw for this month that I miscalculated and overcharged and offered to send him the difference and he said "We'll just take i toff the next order." which is what I'll do this trip.

[YellowHammer]

If they won't sign to hold me free from liability, then I would point the phone at them, hit the record button, and ask them to verbally agree that if they don't sign the contract, then they agree they in no way will hold me liable for anything.  Or ask them not to help.  If they were my good friends, things would be a little different.  

If they won't do that, then it means they will hold you liable and I would walk.  I've had a customer pull that on me, I told them to not stack wood against a wall, I said it would fall and hurt them, and they did it anyway.  By that time, my suspicions were up, and sure enough, here comes the wood falling over, and since I was ready for it, I pushed the guy out of the way and caught most of the wood.  

Guess what the guy said to me for saving him from certain injury?  Did he thank me?  Did he say he was sorry?   Nope.  His exact words were:

"You're pretty quick, I almost got that whole load for free."  Do not be someone else's winning lottery ticket.

[WV Sawmiller]

Robert,

   I'd probably have told him "No, your widow might have gotten free lumber but not you." 

   I worked in many places where they told us if we ran over someone to back over him and be sure as it was cheaper to pay death benefits than hospital costs. :

[Southside]

But now YH owns an excavator.  :D

[WV Sawmiller]

DANG! That sawdust pile caught fire again.  :

[Magicman]

Do any of you have troubling getting customers to actually sign their name on a contract. I made a contract based on Magicman's version. My first two customers that I asked to sign the contract would not sign.

No, I have never had a customer to question or even hesitate about signing the contract.  Maybe it's all about the way it is presented to the customer??  Don't know.  I do know that if a customer refused to sign the contract, I would promptly leave and never go back.  His potential business is not that important to me.  

In over 20 years of sawing I have never failed to be paid nor had a customer to question the scaling/billing.  Never had one to try to reduce the invoiced amount.  I certainly have had many to add a nice tip.  $50-$100 is common and there are those that have been $200.