Laptop Controlled Setworks

[moodnacreek]

Kind of spooky watching this conversation and thinking about what AI will do with that in the near future. Scanners can see what we cannot and the decision making ability is about to overtake our pea.

Saw a girl in a parking lot the other day backing up fast and looking straight ahead [back up camera]. I thought to my self, this is just the beginning.

[Southside]

In theory what you are saying makes sense, but where is that theoretical log? We are getting way into the weeds here but chasing the QS example the angle isn't always the determining factor, ray fleck is and growing conditions of the tree will change where that optimizes. 

But then the next log is a red oak... Guess what I am saying is yes one could probably enter in enough values to somehow make a program "smart enough" to beat the sawyer in every aspect, but by the time that was done the saw technology would have morphed to where the systems weren't compatable. 

I am not worried at all about AI replacing any of what I do, and I don't think it can replace what folks like Don and many others do.  There are times I wish AI could do some of my work for me, but I don't see it happening. 

[Don P]

I don't think I've ever actually sawn any of those patterns.

The "Rift sawn" looks a lot like RRQS and is producing quartersawn lumber, look at the ring direction. The "Quartersawn" is mainly producing rift sawn lumber from a quartered log, again look at the ring orientation on the boards. But usually, if someone is focusing on quartersawing everything in sight, they are new, or an architect :D.

On the circle mill I'm usually grade sawing in our woods. Choosing the highest quality face and working it down while trying to keep the next turn balanced as possible while recovering from this face till it makes more sense to turn to the next best one. Chasing the grade anticipating what the log is going to look like on the backside of what I'm sawing. And in hindsight looking back when I've missed a call, looking at the previous board and seeing "the tell", the beginnings of the defect that I missed. When the scanning and interpretation of what it is seeing exceeds my experience, well, I hope Jim is right. Robots don't need houses or oak tables  :-\.

[YellowHammer]

I agree, they are too simplistic, erroneous and notional.  As a matter of fact, I just did a video on why Not to saw the first one.  

[longtime lurker]

I wouldn't base a damned thing on that picture up there.

What they are calling plain sawn is actually through and through sawn. Plain sawn gives all backsawn lumber not a mix of backsawn and quarter sawn.

What they're calling rift sawn is actually true quarter sawn. Rift has the grain at 45-70 degrees to the face and that pattern will give exactly zero rift sawn boards.

And their quarter sawn pattern is the least commonly used of the three main quarter sawing patterns because it needs a four man bench or the flitch has to be rotated.

The great problem with the internet is the dispersal of erroneous information. No sawyer drew that picture and it's labelled completely wrong.

[customsawyer]

Please don't use the saw patterns shown in those pictures.

[Don P]

I agree, they are too simplistic and notional.  As a matter of fact, I just did a video on why Not to saw the first one.  

We're calling it "spandex pattern" in honor . I'm going to bust up 3 big logs in 6 turns doing that next week on the CSM and Lucas. Choosing the opening face will decide whether it was worthwhile or not. At that size without hydraulics on the mill, as long as I don't blow the setup I'll take some loss to not turn. If it is turning into a train wreck, well, back up and punt is where humans shine.

We are being hard on the op but really just bringing more variables and clarity to his thoughts I hope. Another thought in that direction is knots. If structural lumber, spike and edge knots are a problem, often my opening and then rotation can center face those. If grade sawing I'm probably going to place them near and edge to be removed. Branches grow from heart to bark as a cone, I'm visualizing them within the tree and the frustrum created in the board as I'm looking and planning my cuts. Understand how trees grow, sounds easy, it is not.

We've discussed releasing growth stress before. I can handle bow from flatsawn in structural lumber, hand me quartersawn for framing and I'm liable to send it back for excessive crook. If I want stable hard wearing flooring or fleck then quartersawn is great.

Drying stress. There is a piece of compression wood flooring on my deck that shrank in length on one face and sheared 6 screws. It passed by at least 6 human eyes and in hindsight I can only say I shoulda been paying more attention.

I think that "every log is something different" aspect is what draws many of us to working with natural material.

[Ianab]

Please don't use the saw patterns shown in those pictures.

They bring this to mind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

Shortly thereafter the physicist returned to the farm, saying to the farmer, "I have the solution, but it works only in the case of spherical cows in a vacuum."

Cut pattern 1 works if you have chainsaw mill and want to make river tables from the middle boards, as they will usually crack  apart. 
#2 is a "perfect" quarter sawing pattern, but note the amount of waste wood. It's difficult to do, wastes a lot of wood, and unless you are making high end musical instruments, it's not usually done.
#3 is an "approximate" quarter sawing pattern, to get the most practical recovery of nearly quarter sawed wood from a log, for stability or appearance reasons. But the middle and outside edges of the boards would generally be edged off as sapwood or low grade wood near the pith.  
How much? depends on the log. A 10" wide board with spike knots down one edge is low grade. Rip it to an 8" clear board and it's actually worth more. That's the sort of judgement call that an experienced sawyer will make as the log is being cut. 
I run a swing blade mill, so none of those pattern are really relevant. But I can adjust the cutting patterns to suit what I find inside the log. Once you see the inside of the log you have a better idea of what you can produce. But you can't X-ray the log before you start. 

[moodnacreek]

I can see scanning the log for the opening face on grade sawing fast. If there are 4 jacket boards of value with a minimum width you don't want to over or under set.

[SawyerTed]

This thread is what makes FF great.   The breadth of knowledge and willingness to share helps a new guy begin sorting out the prior knowledge in the industry.

We've gotten off into one of the areas that appears to be challenging to the OP - that's an understanding of the process and techniques of sawing logs into lumber.

With that said, I believe the OP has considerable homework to do for his software to be successful.   He needs to determine if the software/setworks/optimization that's out there can be improved with his innovations. Without a comparison and evaluation, the new software could be behind what's already there. On the other hand, it could be major advancement. There is room for improvement.

Another piece of the homework is learning the sawing process, the characteristics of logs and what makes optimization challenging. It's impossible to do process improvement without a strong understanding of the process.

The third piece is developing relationships in the industry.  This may be the most difficult in a highly competitive industry that is wary of newcomers of any sort.

[YellowHammer]

I agree, they are too simplistic and notional.  As a matter of fact, I just did a video on why Not to saw the first one.  

We're calling it "spandex pattern" in honor .

THAT is hilarious.  Also, I finally found someone who doesn't fall asleep during my videos!
I think you have just coined a new term that will live forever.  I love it! 

[SawyerTed]

Is the "spandex pattern" the first cuts a "skinny jeans" sawyer makes?   

This comment is about fictional people any resemblance to real people is incidental and should be taken as so.

[YellowHammer]

The Spandex Pattern(s), as they are now forever immortalized, are a group of overly simplistic sawing patterns that are useless in high grade hardwood sawing strategies but are popular to watch on the YouTube and demonstrated by some "sawyers" who seem to be wearing excessively snug spandex while bending over a sawmill plying their craft, whatever that is.  

My specific reference to it can be seen at 14.52 minutes into the video.  Not to derail this topic but I believe this video directly relates to it in discussing sawing patterns and how a sawyer uses their head and cues in the log to maximize quality and lumber value.


https://youtu.be/hknsYzfNrwY

[Larry]

Another good video.  One of my pet peeves.  I watch one of these so called "Sawyers" doing the "The Spandex Pattern" and it grates on my nerves.  I've also noticed these guys will boast about how many board feet they saw.  Of course its faster sawing CRAP!

Most of the time it seems the Spandex board makers are custom sawing and do not process the board further than pushing it off the mill.

Most woodworkers know from experience what a good board looks like and generally are good sawyers.

[Southside]

I see a dictionary entry.  :D

[Andries]

Yellowhammer, not to get too picky, but your wording of "excessively snug spandex" is off-base. On the right Sawyer, spandex can never be too snug.
But, (working hard to get this thread back on track) here's a very random thought;
@Don P coined the term spandex pattern and also mentioned AI.
Whoooo boy, it could be that I've just had an overly spicey lunch . . . but imagine the possibilities.
.
"But Accuset, I wanna wear Daisy Dukes and a pink tank-top. Stop bossing me around and let's just cut some Canadian Cheese!"
"Sorry, lil'red, no can do. My cameras have analysed this banana log, and the Insty log-algorithm indicates a higher clic-count if you pull on the orange Lululemons."
"Oooooh, gotcha! Colour coordinated to the mill and the tractor ! ! You're so clever. ❤️"
I can hear the cash rolling in, even up here in the glaciated North.

[moodnacreek]

When i started sawing The experimental hard wood forest here on the mountain gave me access to their library and archives. I should of studied that hard in high school. I sawed a lot of hardwood by the book and could not sell it.  Never the less I am glad I learned the terms and what they ment in practice. In 1999 when i went full time I had to make money. To day I will take a grade white oak log and saw it into 2" trailer planks because i don't have a kiln. In the video of me sawing I am plain sawing large grade walnut, a sin yes but the ones that don't heart split will pay well for the others.   Another money maker for me is locust posts of all things. Most logs here are rotted toward the middle.  I often take a log and saw along the bark to a 3" + opening face and then pull 4" , cut that off and send it to the edger to get a 4x4. That is just plain wrong but logs and fuel cost money. So the scanner thing means nothing to my little operation. The way trees are harvested and turned into money varies greatly and that is interesting.

[barbender]

Are the Spandex Sawyers the guys (that also have their counterparts in firewood, the Spandex Splitter Operator) that apparently would prefer to pimp their wives out in skimpy clothes to get views, then make an honest living?

[Southside]

Imagine being the inventor of the internet - not Al gore - and thinking "this will allow people to further their education, share information, and connect in ways never before possible", then he sees what it has become.

[longtime lurker]

Nothing wrong with running a through and through sawing pattern: In small logs it's one of the more effective ways to achieve decent recovery and so long as you understand the limitations of it and your logs and the desired product are okay it's a useful technique to know.

Provided you use it right. Most people do not know how to use it right. Or maybe it's the only one saw only one step attitude. Sawyers with a headsaw and resaws see logs differently because the headsaw can be used to prepare material for the resaws to do the work



 

That there is also a through and through pattern and I use a modified version of it quite regularly ( modified= remove first 2" board, roll and remove second 2" board, split straight up the pith and then saw out the wings for inch to edger). I find it yields high grade, stable, quarter sawn feedstock out of little solid logs and while I'd rather not have to saw those logs they're part of what we get and being able to make money from them is important. 

EDIT: Yes every one of the 4 x 1's will turn into a banana... but thats why we overcut them as 1" x the limit of the log and then feed them through an edger. 4 x 1 is the target size post edger, not the size the mill cuts to

Can I pick up one of those hawt scantily clad assistants now???

[moodnacreek]

Nothing wrong with running a through and through sawing pattern: In small logs it's one of the more effective ways to achieve decent recovery and so long as you understand the limitations of it and your logs and the desired product are okay it's a useful technique to know.

Provided you use it right. Most people do not know how to use it right. Or maybe it's the only one saw only one step attitude. Sawyers with a headsaw and resaws see logs differently because the headsaw can be used to prepare material for the resaws to do the work



 

That there is also a through and through pattern and I use a modified version of it quite regularly ( modified= remove first 2" board, roll and remove second 2" board, split straight up the pith and then saw out the wings for inch to edger). I find it yields high grade, stable, quarter sawn feedstock out of little solid logs and while I'd rather not have to saw those logs they're part of what we get and being able to make money from them is important.

EDIT: Yes every one of the 4 x 1's will turn into a banana... but thats why we overcut them as 1" x the limit of the log and then feed them through an edger. 4 x 1 is the target size post edger, not the size the mill cuts to

Can I pick up one of those hawt scantily clad assistants now???

No! You have not earned that yet. ;D

[longtime lurker]

But but but I through and through saw it and split the pith. What else does I have to do, I really wants one??

I find it a really effective sawing pattern to use on 12" or so logs assuming the pith runs straight and its a suitable species for feedstock. I might get a sappy corner on my planks but that will come off during machining. I may also get a little bit of heartshake but it'll be on an edge and minor edge defect on feedstock mostly isn't an issue because again it either machines off or is hidden. Upside is that even the boards that are technically rift often show ribbon or fleck on one face because of the tight growth rings in those little logs.
 I'll also sometimes use the same pattern on somewhat larger logs when I want 6 x 1 for good quality feedstock if I've got the time, although sadly I mostly just backsaw those these days because of production pressure and the market reality that I can get 80% of the price of the quarter sawn board at 50% of the production cost: most people only want to pay for the average board anyway. Putting nearly every board through the edger costs $, backsawn I don't have to do that. 

The thing with the through and through pattern as I use it is to be flexible in my target size: I use it in small logs where there's not a lot of meat to play with so won't penalise a board that could be a 6" outt the edger by making it into a 4"... I just run another stack for the different width and saw a few more logs. And accept that your backsawn boards are what they are depending on the log and the depth of sapwood. Maybe its a 4 x 2, maybe its a 3 x 1½. It doesn't matter to me - I can sell all of them given enough time.



 

I do like me some ribbon grain in the feedstock though, and given half a chance I'll cut for it if I can do so without too much of a recovery loss. I price ordinary as ordinary but customers come looking for me because they don't want ordinary and I know it and charge accordingly. Kind of a waste going into a deck but hey... I'm happy to take their money and run it for decking not flooring if thats what the customer wants.

[customsawyer]

And I just went and bought me some new spandex today. Loading the video now.

[Southside]

Ya know, admins can be banned. Just saying.  :D

[customsawyer]

You would know I'm sure.