Finally scored an Old Town Canoe

[Old Greenhorn]

One of the first things I learned during my swiftwater rescue training was that if you break free and headed downstream, get your feet up and keep them there. Around here the creeks and rivers are full of snags and strainers. Every recovery I worked on was a result of somebody getting snagged and pushed under. On one job we lost a zodiac caught up in such a snag/strainer and nearly lost a diver. The sheriffs dept. had to sink the boat with a bunch of projectile holes so that nobody would be tempted to try and recover it. That was not a fun job and took 8 hours to complete. 
 You guys be careful out on the water please!

[peakbagger]

I got an Old Town recently, too. Been looking for a short canoe for a while but not very hard. Seems stupid to have a house on a lake but no canoe. I do have kayaks but need knee high boots to get anything launched and the kayak is too restrictive with the boots on.


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Discovery 119 Sportsman. I like the seat. All I really want it for is to float around the (small) lake with a beer.

You missed out, I would have given you a nice solo cedar stripper canoe. It is perfect for a small lake but pretty useless for river canoeing as the hull design was optimized for shallow water maneuverability. I even added a keel to give it straightline control.  I switched to seak kayaks so its just sittinf in the garage. I would rather see someone use it than it to sit there. 

[Otis1]

Old Greenhorn is correct with the "safe" swimming position if you are in fast moving water. Feet first and up; that way you can push off rocks with your legs if needed, also it's your softer bottom area that will bounce off the rocks or bottom. If you do encounter a strainer, then the position changes to face first to try and quickly swim away or be in a position to try and crawl on top of it. The idea of being in one of those is terrifying. 

I did a class 5 raft trip in Alaska that they made everyone do a swim test demonstrating these ideas. If you couldn't do it then they didn't let you go. That was cold water.

[barbender]

 I was doing my best to stay facing forward and feet up. I'm only an adequate swimmer, I wouldn't consider myself a strong swimmer at all. It's also impossible for me to describe the power of that water. I'd never experienced anything like it. I'd be going along hanging on to the canoe with one arm, and we'd come to a submerged rock with a huge roller. Like I say, my intent was to be feet up and facing forward, well in that water you quickly discovered that you didn't really decide how things were going to go. I distinctly remember hearing the sound I made getting slammed into a rock, submerged, and the force of the current pressing me against the rock and pushing my breath out. I'd rebound off the rock, still submerged, and honestly didn't even know which way was up. Eventually I'd pop up, see where the canoe was and grab back onto it. I finally realized that holding on to the canoe with one arm was causing me to get spun backwards when we'd hit the boulders, that's when I said goodbye to the canoe. Actually, and fortunately, the point where I let go because I literally didn't have the strength to hit stuff the way I had been, was the end of the bad water. I was cashed and the adrenaline was gone, I couldn't even stand up. Didn't realize until I got out of the water, that my back was bruised up and I somehow managed to sprain an ankle during all of it. 

 The other guy, who is a very strong swimmer, had gotten the canoe pulled to the bank. We got it dumped and pulled out of the water. He wanted to compete the run with the one paddle we still had. There was no way I was getting back in that canoe! I limped out through the woods and found the gravel road, and he ran the canoe down to the take out.

[Otis1]

Barbender that sounds like an experience that changed your life, water is scary sometimes. Runoff, cold water, and debris are a recipe for disaster, glad you made it out ok. I've had a couple close calls myself.

Safety gear for boating isn't mentioned enough as we are all used to chaps and a helmet for work. Standard gear is a good PFD(life jacket) and throw ropes. A PFD doesn't help if you're not wearing it.

I've been in a few situations that required a throw bag/ rope and serious trust from the recipient. Like jump in the water and I will get you the rope. Luckily they've all turned out ok so far. 

Seems like this thread is getting sidetracked away from lake canoes and firefighters original post and into whitewater stuff, maybe we need a whitewater thread or a "did something dumb in the water".

[Old Greenhorn]

Barbender, you had a hell of a ride and you got lucky more than once. Glad you came out of it in one piece, even it it was a very wobbly piece for a little while. :D Seriously, that guy that told you to hang onto the canoe needed a bit more experiece. In open water/sea environments we always teach 'stay with the boat' for a lot of very good reasons. Swiftwater is a whole 'nother smoke and the 'rules' change. You know this now, but you can only (barely) navigate one vessel in that kind of water, and that vessel has to be you.
 I trained as a rescuer, not a victim. First rule for us was that we never put anybody in the water until we had a way to get them out and that was usually a '2 deep' system, in case the first one failed. We had special rigs across the waterway that had leaders hanging down at 6' intervals, so you would swing your legs downstream, look for the line as you approached it, steer a little, and grab the line hanging down, the current would sweep you off to the bank. If you missed that, further down there were personnel with special throw bags to fling you out a line and pull you out.  
 During training, every month, we spent a lot of time in the water in various situations and after a while (a long while) you get adjusted to stuff that would (the first time) scare the heck out of anybody. Playing the live victim is a routine part of the job in these training evolutions. It can also be a scary job in actual whitewater situations (as you well know). I never lost respect for the power of the water, in fact, my respect grew quite a bit. It is a powerful thing. I used to teach classes for departments that didn't have a team on "swiftwater recue awareness" and the point of the class was to show how powerful that water is and why they needed to mitigate as best they could and call a trained team in asap. 5 knot water it will move a 30,000 pound truck folks think are invincible. Someplace I probably have my powerpoint slides and I had a great chart that shows the various water speeds and relates it to how many pounds per square foot it puts on your body. Those were some sobering numbers. I'm not going to go from memory here, I'll see if I can find those slides.
 Canoeing and kayaking (tubing here also) are great sports and a LOT of fun, but if someone is going to do serious efforts in serious water, some extra training is always helpful and can be a lifesaver quite literally. Our water here goes from mundane to scary over very short periods and I think that is what gets folks in trouble.

[barbender]

OG, I agree with everything you and Otis have to say about this. The thing is, I tend to be naturally cautious and risk averse. I've always had plenty of respect for water. My mistake here was that I trusted someone else's judgement, and didn't look at all the water we were going to run. He had ran the river successfully before the fall before we went. The water was lower and he didn't realize how much this section changed due to flow. The section we had walked and scouted, was probably class ll water, no problem. We ran that, came around the next corner and I thought to myself, "wow I didn't realize you could run something like that in a canoe!" when I saw it. Well, as it turns out you can't😬

[barbender]

I should add, I was wearing a life jacket. I don't see any way I would've made it out of there. I was planning on getting dunked that day, just not to the extent that I did!😂

[doc henderson]

We pulled a lady out of the river in Colorado that fell out in white water.  she had fought so hard that she need four of us to pull her in the boat and she could not even sit up.  she was having chest pain but no option but to finish the run.  I doubt she ever went again.  We would go on guided rafts while at scout camp.  my wife and daughter went once, and my daughter was terrified to be in the boat.  In tough spots, I had a hold of her life jacket.  A dad with a bad back with his legs in the boat and his chest in the water fell half over board.  I pulled on his jacket and had the guide pull on me.  He even had trouble waking and admitted latter that he thought he would not have made it in the water, and should not have gone.  He went for his son.  It is fun to a point, but like many things in life, can get real real, very fast.

[barbender]

That's absolutely it, Doc. Anything to do with water, things get real very quickly. 

[SwampDonkey]

Find a cold spring on that lake where the brook trout are hanging out. Some good eaten. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Be careful anywhere that's had a lot of rain or melt water recently. Take no chances.

[Otis1]

Doc I was a raft guide for only a couple of seasons, but they taught us that to pull someone in the raft that you had to dunk them first to get the extra lift from the bouyancy of the PFD. Like holding a football or float underwater and letting it go. Most people don't even realize that you've done that. 

I can attest to the effectiveness. I purposely hit a rock and dumped my dad when he wasn't paying attention, the cold water shocked him a bit more than I expected and he struggled for a bit. I gave him a good dunk and right up into the raft he came. This was only class 3, so some danger but not what Barbender experienced. At the time I was about 20 years old and 175 lb, he was about 50 years old and 250 lb. Still comes up occasionally in conversation how I both tried to kill him and save him simultaneously.

Not sure about other places, but in CO there is a website to check water levels/ CFS (cubic feet/ second) on most of the rivers. Good reference to make sure you know what you're getting into. As Barbender said, lots of rivers and creeks change drastically depending on water level. Lots of respect for moving water. 

[Old Greenhorn]

There is a natural response called a vasovagel response which is most often tied to fainting at the sight of blood or some other shocking thing like that, but it also happens when the body is thrown into cold water in a life threatening situation. The throat can close up and reduce or cut off air to the lungs. Doc can have a more detailed explanation, but it's a common thing seen in water rescues. Catching somebody off guard like that can be a risky thing sometimes.

[firefighter ontheside]

Barbender did you put that boat in the water yet?
I just bought another old town.

[barbender]

I have had it out exactly once. It did what I wanted in the water- floated without leaking. I guess I would say it handles similarly to the old aluminum canoe I was using, at least not anything that jumped out at me as far as lake paddling and stability. What did jump out at me was how much lighter it was to portage in a mile. A real pleasure that way, at least compared to the aluminum tank😬