Help with log ID, please.

[Sod saw]

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These two photos were sent to me today showing a freshly cut log about half hour from here.

They were sent by a logger who may or may not know the species.  I had asked him to keep an eye out for any strange or weird logs as he works his way thru his days. 

I have not seen any leaves or twigs nor have I seen the logs in person.

Do any of you have any idea what kind of tree this was (is)?

24 feet long    x    20 / 23 inches diameter




 




 

He cuts a lot of walnut and delivers to other buyers, so, I believe that it would not be walnut.  

Any thoughts?    Thanks for your input.


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[RookieLogger]

My guess is Red Elm

[KEC]

First photo of a butt resembles mulberry.

[nativewolf]

Red elm would resemble mulberry that's fully oxidized but you wouldn't see the other grain figure in the butt ( IMO by this I mean the mulberry would look a bit more washed out, from yellow to a dark red).  I don't see much elm but I like that better as a guess.  Further, up in NY Elm would be pretty common I think.

[Sod saw]

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Thanks for the ideas.

Is Red Elm a local nick name or is it a different species all its own?  I have not heard the term.

I was not aware that Mulberry got that large.

Any other thoughts?


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[RookieLogger]

Red Elm is also called Slippery Elm. And yes that would be one heckin big Mulberry, possibly a world record 

[Southside]

I have sawn Mulberry larger than that, it is a Red Elm.  Twisted grain, really need to QS it to get good quality lumber that will play nice, the fact it's a co-dom would be a concern to me as far as value goes. 

[Ianab]

s Red Elm a local nick name or is it a different species all its own?  I have not heard the term

Red Elm is Ulmus rubra, and is native to the Eastern USA, just not that common There are dozens of different elm species from around the Nth Hemispere (Europe / Asia and Nth America). Like most elms the interlocking grain makes the wood very tough (good for tool handles etc), but tricky to get it dried straight. Quarter sawing would help that.  

[Firewoodjoe]

I've cut red and grey elm. Both were on the same job. Only time I cut it. 

[Sod saw]

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Southside, when you refer to value, are you referring to usefulness or are you talking about the dollar value of the log itself?

Another question:  some of you have talked about twisted grain and drying straight.  How would it behave if left as a larger timber for a frame member?  Perhaps cutting it oversize and trim it to proper size after it air dried?


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[Southside]

Those two are tied together.  You can't make clear lumber from logs that have knots on four sides, so the log value and it's usefulness are tied together.  With the two piths at the one end of the log you have degraded value.  You need to cut that crotch back to have a chance on lumber not twisting like a propeller.   

As far as value goes, to a commercial sawmill that would be a pallet log as it lies there.  There is likely some very attractive lumber in the log that one can recover and turn into a desirable product, and that's where the actual value is - with the sawyer.  

Twisted grain timbers tend to check when drying, best to use them green and live with the "rustic" appearance they will have, trying to dry and re-saw is likely to have a twisted, hard to get to final size, timber. 

[KEC]

This probably should be in the tree/plant ID thread.

[Sod saw]

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Oh,  You might be right about where this should be listed.  But since it was a logger who contacted me, my first thought was logging.

If any one has the ability to move this, you may do so.   Sorry if some of you were confused.

In the meantime, That logger got back to me after he called his veneer buyer and was told that it is a red elm and very rare at that size  =  "valuable".

I am waiting for his buyer to look at the log and may hear back from the logger.


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[doc henderson]

we have many large (fat) elms here.  often have to split the log to get it on the mill.  not always that straight for that long.  i like the look of it.  let it dry and the crooked stuff can go into the fireplace.  



 

 

 

The first pic is a elm at my buddy Dallas's place.  it blew over and had root rot. so lost the first 8 feet of the log.
second is a tomahawk target.  we wet them down to keep them from cracking.  
In the final pic you can see how red they turn after being in the sun... and being sprayed with red anchorseal end sealant.   :D



 
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2 sticks of the elm, one is a crotch.  the other log is a cottonwood we used to make tomahawk targets for a local business, and they like CW.

[Magicman]

That logger got back to me after he called his veneer buyer and was told that it is a red elm and very rare at that size = "valuable".

Avoid getting caught in a crossfire between the logger and veneer buyer.  Elm is spiral grain and has a mind all of it's own.  Quarter sawn is best but that log is very iffy regarding QS.

If you are talking $$ proceed with caution or pass.

[OH logger]

I've sold a few red elm for veneer but only a handful. And they looked way better than that.  Lighter colored wood (more tan) and real clean. No shake either.  Also I used a couple red elm for 8"x8" beams on my shelter house.  Lasts real
Good outside in the weather.  They're only 7' long or so
And have stayed real
Straight 

[Southside]

In the meantime, That logger got back to me after he called his veneer buyer and was told that it is a red elm and very rare at that size  =  "valuable". I am waiting for his buyer to look at the log and may hear back from the logger.

Time to walk away.  This went from an "unknown" to  "highly valuable" by the guy selling it.  You know you are being sold a song.  smiley_horserider 

[Sod saw]

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Yea,  Thanks for the warning you all.  I told him to just let me know how he makes out with his buyer.  It might be a fun log to try and it might be pretty color, but, it isn't the end of the world if I don't end up with it.
  
He knows, from other purchases, that my standards and needs are high.  I have acquired nice logs from him in the past and I have also turned down some logs.

OH logger,  If I do end up with it, I may just try a beam for future use.  Size will depend on what that log tells me.

I appreciate all your input and help with this and also your ability to watch out for each other when you sense something fishy might be going on.


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[KEC]

In the late 1970's I loaded a load of veneer logs onto a rail car that contained some BIG Red Elm logs that were all you'd really care to handle with the H Model Prentice loader. IIRC it looked different than the photos here. And, while hauling hardwood sawlogs, we encountered some Red Elm. More recently, I have cut up some Mulberry for firewood. Not to question others here, but that butt still looks like Mulberry to me.

[doc henderson]

fresh cut mulberry should be bright yellow.  after sun exposure dark brown.



 

 

not fresh sawn, but fresh surface jointing after sitting in a pile for months.  made the bench.  It sits in the shop, and it is very brown now.  Mulberry

[Frickman]

That looks like red elm to me.  I sawed a fair amount of it over the years, mostly for blocking.  The old saying around here is it makes good airplane propellers, as it twists so much when it dries.  I have sawn truck beds out of red elm, when the truck was literally sitting by the mill and we bolted the boards down minutes after they were sawn.  

I made some paint grade interior trim for my house one time out of red elm.  It worked well.  It had been dried properly with a DH kiln after air drying several years and had no stress in the wood.  I liked working with it.

[doc henderson]

wonder if those truck needed a front-end alignment at 20% MC. 8)



 

 

get it flat, and it is remarkable wood.  shoe rack for my wife.  she got nearly a fourth  of her shoes on it!!! 8)   :D :D :D

[Sod saw]

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An update:

I just talked with the logger on the phone, he has the red elm log at his house.

The veneer guy is interested and said that he would like to be able to send it overseas but it is only one log and he needs a bunch for the effort to worthwhile.

The veneer guy said that it would be useful as a saw log.  I will go look at it soon (not today though).

SOooo o o ,      as a saw log what would it be worth to each of you $ ?


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[doc henderson]

I would pay 0 as the elm here is so plentiful, I get tons for free.  so that means you have to look at your market.  if you want to pay the guy for the trouble of letting you in on the deal assuming this is who you have been talking with, give something.  If you have an idea of what it will sell for after it is milled, you can subtract what you want for the milling from what it is worth and give that.  If you want to cultivate a relationship where this person comes to you with logs, then be generous.  If all else fails, come up with some price per board foot, like 50 cents and go with that.  It kind of depends on your plan for the wood if you are a business guy.  I f this is a hobby then it depends on if this is for personal use and how bad you want the wood.  If you are selling the wood, then it does not make sense to pay more than you can get plus all your work.  If the guy delivers the log, I would consider that as well.  If I have to go work to fall a tree, load it, and haul it home, the best I have paid is 100 bucks for a walnut log.  If he has an offer (does not sound like it) then you have to pay more than the veneer guy.  If so, make sure he did not work at a carnival in the past.  He may just state an asking price and you decide from there.  Sounds like the veneer guy is saying, "it is a nice log, but I cannot use it as a single log".  so, he does not have an offer from the veneer guy.   Sorry, I worked all night and just woke up!

[nativewolf]

I agree with Doc, worth nothing.   You could give hime $50 to deliver it I guess.  I leave neat one offs in the woods all the time and I work hard to find homes for them, for free.  Or they just go in the log pile.  If he sends it to a mill as a saw log it's going to go for something generic like pallet wood because unless the mill has a bunch it is not going to get sawn either.  They can't sort out 150bdft of lumber, especially into multiple grades.  The fact that the logger did not know what it was...well that says you don't have much of it either.