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Ponderosa Pines...in Northeast Ohio?

Started by NonSequiturFarm, October 12, 2023, 01:54:16 PM

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NonSequiturFarm

Greetings!

I am brand new to these message boards but long in the tooth and white of hair. In 2016 bought a 53 acre property in Geauga County Ohio about 8 miles south of Lake Erie shore with about half wooded. The fellow we bought the property from had it since 1985 and during those 30 years planted all sorts of interesting species. But the strangest was a roughly 4 acre stand of Ponderosa Pine. They have been growing for more than three decades and are very straight and tall. We had a certified forester come out and give us an official sanctioned forestry plan for CAUV (certified tree farm) and that fellow said in 25 years of forestry he had never heard of Ponderosa Pines in Ohio. Our elevation is almost exactly 1,000 feet above sea level. I didn't think they would grow here. And to be honest they are starting to die.

Any of you ever heard of such a thing? This is a view of them west of our south field.


 

Texas Ranger

We have/had (been a while since I saw them) 30 acres of dawn redwoods. South east Texas.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Tarm

There are a couple Ponderosa Pines growing in a yard here in northeast Wisconsin. So yes, they can grow in a lot of places once planted. Their native range is in a dryer climate so I am not surprised they are suffering from disease. You could harvest and replace them with native species or just let nature take its course.

Ron Scott

Yes, they may be growing and surviving there if they were introduced by individual planting. However, they are far out of their native western ecosystem and may not age and survive well in your Ohio landscape.

You may consider some crop tree release in the stand to nature the stand along as it ages with natures help.
~Ron

Ljohnsaw

Well,  I can tell you that they are great for timber framing! How big are they, DBH? I like them in the 28 to 36" small end logs for the best timbers and lumber. They smell great when you cut them. Build a cabin!
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sawguy21

They are very common here in south central British Columbia but we have a much drier climate. Very popular for interior finishing and furniture but I don't think pine meets building code for framing. I am surprised they survived this long in your environment.
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beenthere

Welcome to the Forestry Forum

How about a few good close-up photos in your gallery of these Ponderosa pines, trees and needles. Would be nice to see 
south central Wisconsin
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Corley5

A neighbor just down the road has a few growing in a row behind his house. They've been there for over 30 years. He started them from cones/seeds he collected out west somewhere. They're pretty slow growing compared to our native red and white pine.
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NonSequiturFarm

Quote from: beenthere on October 12, 2023, 08:21:32 PM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum

How about a few good close-up photos in your gallery of these Ponderosa pines, trees and needles. Would be nice to see


 

 

 
Here are a few shots from today. One is close up of the bark at about 4 feet up. 

barbender

Hmm...it could just be the picture, but is the bark orange and flaky higher up, say from 20' up and beyond?
Too many irons in the fire

NonSequiturFarm

I will look again today to be sure. But what I can say is they are not doing well in such wet soil. There is an active creek that runs from the heights of town down through several farms to us and cuts our farm in half. The whole place has wet feet. Easily a dozen of these beasts have died in the last couple years. 

From the receipts left by the previous owner, he purchased and planted at least the first batch in 1990. The fellow did a lot of strange things but one thing he did well was planting a bunch of bald cypress along the creek so they are proliferating along the middle of the property and they love wet feet.

chep

Judging from the spacing between the whirls of branches they look like they are growing good? Got more photos?
Barbender is hinting they look like Scots pine I think...
I love growing things out of their zone/range. I gave a giant sequoia here, hickories, pecans, Japanese walnuts, paw paws, and even have figs!

barbender

Yes Chep, that's where I was headed. They kinda look like Scots Pine to me.
Too many irons in the fire

Southside

Many moons ago I tried transplanting Short Leaf Pine seedlings about 50 miles west of @SwampDonkey at my old place that I dug up in NC.   That plan didn't work.....
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barbender

 I've had the thought a couple of times to grab a few Lodgepole pine cones when in the mountains out West, and start some seeds. Then I think maybe I'll accidentally move some kind of blight, bug, or who knows what?😬 So I never have. 

 The reason I had wanted to try Lodgepole is it it related to the Jack Pine we have native in MN. Where the boreal forest meets the northern Rockies, their ranges overlap and they hybridize. 

 Lodgepole has a much nicer form than Jack Pine, typically. That doesn't mean it would if I tried growing it in MN, though. I see lots of pictures of beautiful Scots pine in Europe. Most of the planted stands of Scots I've seen around here make Jack Pine look nice and straight😊
Too many irons in the fire

SwampDonkey

Yeah, Scots pine don't amount to much up here. Most I have seen are dead by the time they are much size and the saw flies defoliate them. Saw a row behind a house this fall, not many needles left on them. Lodgepole is interesting. I've seen them on subalpine swamps with stunted yellow cypress to gravelly rolling hills. Those swamp ones are like iron. And axe will bounce right off, like hitting an iron pole. :D Some Scots were planted for Christmas trees I know. I'd rather have a cedar tree then one of those things. We did one Christmas. :D

I have a white oak brought about 400 miles north of it's habitat. Nice scarlet red leaves in late fall. It flowers, but nothing to cross with so it only gets pea sized nuts that are sterile. It does great, no dead growth on it. I have black walnut that struggle in our winters, lots of winter kill. These now are from seed of earlier trees I tried to grow. Maybe each generation gets hardier? They do nice young and small, but once they get 20 feet or so they struggle.

Tried planting hickory nuts, none took. Tried a sequoia, it never took either. I kinda think it was DOI anyway.

Even white pine, which are native here struggle with weevils and blister rust.......and wildlife damage. Found a perfectly straight one the other day, dead, was girdled by hares and porkies. You can't have nothing. :D I cut down a couple planted tamarack for firewood. They were all bend over. I found out why, the black bears have been climbing them and playing bouncy bouncy after the cones. Claw marks up and down the bark. :D Moose will maul them down to and rub off the bark, but as to mauling they are beyond that for moose. And porkies like tamarack bark. :D

I see nurseries pushing magnolia and tree of heaven once in awhile. They never do anything here. I know one tree of heaven that dies to the ground every winter and suckers back like a clump of bamboo every summer. ;D
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

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newoodguy78

Quote from: chep on October 21, 2023, 08:15:15 AM
Judging from the spacing between the whirls of branches they look like they are growing good? Got more photos?
Barbender is hinting they look like Scots pine I think...
I love growing things out of their zone/range. I gave a giant sequoia here, hickories, pecans, Japanese walnuts, paw paws, and even have figs!
Chep do you have those fig trees planted in the ground or barrels? Do you get them to bear fruit? Couple people I know have them, one has them in big planters and they bring them inside for the winter. The other has his planted in the ground and bends them over and buries them with leaves for the winter. 
Never had fresh figs until I was around these ones had no idea what I was missing,they are certainly delicious. 

NonSequiturFarm

Regarding them possibly being Scots Pine, it's possible.

I wouldn't know a Ponderosa Pine if it fell on me. But the former owner who sold us the farm told us he planted Ponderosa Pine there and we have a receipt from 35 years ago where it lists Ponderosa Pines. Occam's Razor leads me to believe that's what they are. The fellow was odd and planted lots of specimen trees all over including one Dawn Redwood that I rescued from grape vines and willows 5 or 6 years ago.

Sod saw

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Gee,  I would love to have a few Ponderosa Pine here but didn't think that they would do well here.

What type of soil do you have where they grow?   Do they enjoy wet feet or not so wet?

Except for a little south, you are not too far from here.  Are you by Lake Erie?


Sure would be "fun" to have some different varieties as samples.


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chep

@newoodguy78 

The figs are Chicago hardy figs. 
They die back to the ground each year but supposedly will get enough root mass they will eventually fruit well. This is their 3rd year in the ground here. I mulched them in well the 1st year then haven't again. They are in deep sawdust, chip beds with some cover of another elderberry. They did produce fruit this year. 10 or so tiny figs. But they won't ripen. Hopefully as they become more established the fruit will get bigger sooner? Don't know but it's fun showing people figs on a bush in the ground in vermont. We are zone 4b/5a

ehp

Scotch pine here is what they are called

Jeff

Sure looks like the scotts pine we have growing along certains spots up here for wind brake/break. Pretty good size but usually crappy form open grown in 2 or 3 rows. If you think hey whats wrong with the tops in those pines, Scotts. I think scotch pine is a different tree?
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SwampDonkey

Same tree Jeff. Some regions in the new world use Scotch (US) others use Scots (parts of Canada). Pinus sylvestris 

In some settlements in New Brunswick, we have 'The Gathering of the Scots', kind of traditional Scottish games.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Scott

There are a variety of scotch pine depending upon the European region that they came from. Some are good form and many not so good in form. It may also be confused with Austrian pine.
~Ron

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