Making it through another year, '23-'24

[doc henderson]

Ted that is a good idea, but I think they have to be handled with care not to introduce extraneous spores, and to have unblemished bark.  I am sure OGH will chime in.  but for a thousand logs, I would be tempted!

[Old Greenhorn]

Well Ted, I concur with Doc, it's a good idea, but Doc's thoughts were pretty much there. I could give you the short answer or the long answer, which would you like?  However, don't anybody be discouraged, I am open to all ideas and suggestions, I really am. I have even tried ideas that I knew wouldn't work, but they sounded good and I REALLY REALLY wanted them to work.  In fact I am even running a stupid idea (my own) through my head right now that is a pneumatically powered light duty two claw gripper like a root grapple that could mount on my mule, grip and lift 250# and get it high enough to dump in the trailer. A lot of work to design and build and I am trying to decide if it would be faster than somebody lifting and carrying the logs I take on the rough ground I take it from.
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Today was a glorious weather day, it hit 70°. I hit the woods as soon as I could. Had clients coming to pick up logs at 3pm so wanted to get some good time cutting before I had the head home. I had some larger trees to drop today. I cut all this small stuff, nice to drop some 20" plus stuff. Of course they all leaned the wrong way.  The first one was easy, dropped where I wanted and I limbed it and bucked it. The second one was a RO and I suspected a bit of heart rot. Started my face notch and in a few second I had a rooster tail of water flying off the bar. (There's your sign!). I opened up the face and couple see I only had about 3" of hold wood around the diameter. The fall line had to be really close to miss the keepers. I did the back cut and then had gallons of water rushing out. The tree went, but I missed my line by about a foot. Not good enough and hung good. So, as it was rotted out and had zero saw log value, I loped off 6' off the bottom. It dropped but stayed hung. Loped off another 6' and the same thing. Hung hard. The only way at this point was to apply diesel, but no way to get a machine in here. I don't want to walk away from a hanger, it could go at any time and that's not right. But I still had one tree to go. So I stopped and thunk it over and walked around and around trying to figure this out. I looked at all the angles and options and figured if I could drop the 3rd tree into the second tree, they would both hit the ground, BUT I would have to hit that tree in just the right spot to take it down and not whack the keepers, it was a very small window and I am not THAT good, especially after missing the previous pocket. Confidence= low, embarrassment=very high, stress= medium to high.
 So tree number 3 was a nice WO with top damage. It too was a back leaner and if the hinge broke there would have been a true me$$. It was tricky cutting (I should have climbed back to the truck and got the 562 with the 24" bar) and I was taking it with the 350 with an 18" bar. Wound up needing all 4 wedges in my pouch and a lot of beating, but over she went and I nailed that RO in just the right spot and they both hit the ground. The carpenter working up at Bill's shop said he heard a lot of wood crunching and turned just in time to see lots of tree tops moving, but couldn't figure out what the heck was going on until he heard me WHOOP!. He figure I was ok and went back to work, but he thought it was really cool when he found out it was the plan rather than an accident. 
 I did bend two smaller WO's over in the drop, I was able to do most of the big limbing work and one WO came back up dead straight, the other little one, not so much. At that point with everything on the ground I just did some limbing and had to get my gear out and head back. Maybe in the morning I will put up some photos in the watcha cutting thread. I am (again) pretty tired tonight.
 I came home, had lunch and did little stuff that needs to be done. My two clients showed up to get their logs and that actually turned out to be fun. They got to compare notes and trade ideas, hang out and talk for a while. SO we all had a nice time. I learned some stuff too. t was a nice time on a pretty day. 
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 There is another log seller about 30-40 minutes north of me. I have talked to him on the phone once or twice a few years back and I know he cuts only hard maple to sell (he has a sugarbush he maintains on his own land). When I get calls asking for only maple, I give them his number. But I haven't talked to him in a few years now. So I went to check out his website about a week ago and can't find it. I also could not find any reference to his operation on the web at all. I began to wonder if he had moved and and was meaning to call him, but kept forgetting. Today I made the call and left a message. He called back after I had just finished sharpening my saw for tomorrow. We talked for an hour. He is not selling near as many logs as I am, he gets the rare order for 100 , but mostly 10's, 20's and 30's. Some are just 5. He cuts his at 3' and is still selling at $4/log. I mentioned my current pushy '1000 log client' I am cutting 1-200 logs for and he mentioned he had a small 2 acre clearing job to do that is 95% hard maple mushroom sized logs he would love to sell. When he heard what I was selling at, he gagged, then laughed (for a long time) then congratulated me.  and he did the math. Yeah, he would love to have that guy. 
 So I sent a note to my client passing the info along. We will see if anything comes of it. Al this hinges on the client, and if he can't take steps to solve his problem after I hand him a solution, then I can't do it for him. If I can't solve someone's problem, I try to find somebody who can. Frankly, I need to end this season and move on. Bill really needs me on the mill, I have the trailer to get finished, and I have shop orders to get done. I have show projects to build or finish. Winter cutting is NOT supposed to run into April. It's a RULE, y'know?

[WV Sawmiller]

Bill,

   I bet that water coming out of the log smelled just as fresh as if it had come from a clear mountain spring too.

    Good luck on your referral to your counterpart. If this works you guy may need to partner on these big jobs.

    If you need any help on that log grapple you are designing just post and the Deign Committee is standing by to help.

[Old Greenhorn]

Thanks Howard, I will take that under advisement and get back to you. Right now it just looks like another non-starter due to fab and material costs.

 By the By, who is this "Bill" you are referring to?

[SawyerTed]

Tom, I'll take the short answer you provided.  No mushroom log experience here.

Like most of us, I'm always looking for a better way. 

[Freedy201]

Tom, I'll take the short answer you provided.  No mushroom log experience here.

Like most of us, I'm always looking for a better way.

Sometimes the easiest way is the best way if you take into consideration all the factors such as complexity

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

  Since you spend so much time talking about Bill and I am sure you discuss all our conversations with him figured I'd just address the post to him. Say hi to Inga too.

[Hilltop366]

WV just admit it and get it over with.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Well, I guess that is the other alternative (but only as a last resort).

[Old Greenhorn]

WV just admit it and get it over with.

OH! OW! I laughed way too hard at this. Well done. Like a warning shot placed squarely through the bow.

[Old Greenhorn]

Ted, to be honest, I have tried (and continue) to think of anything I could but these logs do present some challenges. I have tried many techniques and methods and equipment as the terrain and equipment allows. Early on I looked really hard at a farm type tractor with a narrow wheelbase, but that would only work in a few situations. I use the Toolcat a lot and still do, when it fits. Getting the forks on the ground and only having to lift the logs a little bit works good and I can lay the forks over the truck bed or trailer rail and roll them in, rather than 'lift and place'. On very rare occasions when we take a large tree and the butt log(s) are too big for me to sell, we will drop the tree and grab the butt with a grapple and drag the tree, with the tiny top wood taking most of the abuse, out to a spot where it's easy to buck and load. Sometimes I lose logs doing this, but usually these are high producing trees. Using a high clearance SxS allows me to get into some really tight areas, but again, it's lift and load into the SxS then again into the truck or trailer, then again unloading in the yard most times. The bucking, is really the easiest, it's the lifting I have to figure out how to minimize and as Doc said, scarring the bark is a deal breaker. In summer cut logs this is a HUGE problem. A 9" WO x 40" log is pretty dang heavy for an old guy to handle and get up to chest height. I NEVER stop thinking about this and the magic solution. Any suggestions are always welcome, they help me think it through.
 I am learning that I appear to be one of the largest sellers in the state. The other seller I know who is near me and sells really nice 100% hard maple logs is not doing nearly as much sales as I am. A 100 log order is rare for him. He is (or was) also 30% cheaper than I am. Go figure. He does not market and interact as I do, and I think that it a big part of the difference. One thing I have learned well: there are very good reasons there aren't many folks doing what I do. There are some days that I wonder if I will be the first ever mushroom logger on the planet who dies in the line of duty.

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I thought I had a good plan for today.  It was supposed to drizzle rain, maybe, all day. I can work in a drizzle when it's not too cold, so I unloaded the trailer into the pile, hooked up, and headed down the road and staged the trailer a bit away from where I am cutting. Then I went in and cleared out some 4" pipe that was in the trail. The rain got steady, and I went looking for a machine to push some brush off the trail, but would up chatting with Bill's carpenter while we waited for a heavier shower to pass. It never did, so I bagged that plan for the day and headed home. I mixed up my $4. half gallon of paint and did the inside of the trailer walls with a 4" brush. Looked pretty dang good and that Behr Enamel paint is really nice stuff, great coverage. I wound up using a little bit more than a quart to do the whole thing. The color isn't bad either, a little darker than I would prefer, but nice and cheerful Blue. No photos because it was raining hard and too dark in there (and I forgot).
 I got the cans closed up and had all the stuff ready to clean and when I stepped out of the trailer I realized I never painted the inside of the door. DUH! I had the side door open for the light and ventilation and painted right past it. Too late to open everything up again, and besides, the door was all wet from the rain. So I will do that on a clear day with better light and it will allow me to touch up spots I missed with the poor lighting.
 Next is the electrical system. I went in the shop and got some terminal blocks and made up a pair of positive and negative buss bar strips. This makes wiring all the components easier, as well as changing them later, but cutting and crimping all those short jumpers is tedious. So I set up a little table by the woodstove (yeah, I started it again, damp and not very warm today) and I did those. Once the paint is dry in the trailer I can figure out where to put the battery and start running the basic wires feeding the panel I will be building. I will likely dead-bug the whole thing and when I am happy, make a panel box and fit everything in to look sorta nice and make sense. It's all low voltage stuff, so a wood box is fine. I need to keep moving, get the shelves in then make more shelves to go high on the wall for smalls.
 Tomorrow is another day, looks like more rain. I'll figure out a plan when I wake up.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

  I know you have considered this in some form but what is the option of sledding loads of logs from the site where cut to where they can easily be loaded onto another piece of equipment?

    In the winter with snow on the ground this would be easy with a snowmobile or tracked SXS or such if you have access to one to tow a sled or stone boat. They work on bare ground too.

    I used an old truck hood as a stone sled to move heavy stones/boulders when I first moved up here to WV. I ran a piece of cable through the front, towed it behind a small Gravely tractor or 4 wheeler. The upside down truck hood had a natural curve that rode over roots and rocks. There were no sides so all I had to do was roll the heavy rock over one time and it was loaded. Of course the cable eventually tore out the metal and I had to get a different truck hood but they were cheap

  Old timers used horses and mules to  pull stone sleds to move stones and firewood and logs and such. You know your Noggie grandparents used them behind a Fjord horse. The sleds were low to the ground for easy loading. I know you don't have a horse, donkey or mule but could you use your SXS or Mule to carry or drag a fairly light weight stone sled or equivalent that could be hand dragged to the site and loaded. Once loaded you could drag it back to the path or road using long cables/ropes and snatch blocks. and your prime mover. The "stone boat" would be easy to load and would protect the logs while transported.

    You can build a stone boat dirt cheap so I know that defies the prime directive of the design committee to spend other people's money. Think about the suggestion in various forms to see if something like this could be adapted to your terrain and equipment.

[aigheadish]

I was wondering the same thing WV, a sled, we've had to have discussed that sometime in the past... I like the truck hood idea and even that could be augmented by some bumpers (4x4s of wood or something) around the edges to steer the sled past trees and such, to help keep it from getting hung up, and keep the rounds from rolling off. I was initially thinking like a sling but the truck hood keeps the logs from getting damaged. 

[doc henderson]

great idea.  I think the slopes side to side and up and down make the sled questionable.  

obviously, a helicopter is the only option.  Now, you could not afford to pay them for all day, but with a sling made of cable, they could transport you new trailer to the location and pick it up later when full.  problem solved.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well again, these are viable ideas and I have previously run them to ground, but they don't solve the issue of lifting and placing, which is the key issue. Also, for the last 2 years something like that would be mostly useless because we have no, or not nearly enough, snow. The ideal machine (for decent snow work) is called a 'SnowDog' and I actually looked at a lightly used one at Boonville and thought hard on it. But a couple of grand is a lot for an experiment. Our sharp and rough bluestone terrain would really tear this thing up without a bunch on snow on the ground. So there is limited application. Also, what ever I get/make will have to be close to 48" max wide and getting between trees.
The main issue is not moving them, I have that pretty well covered with several working options. The issue is lifting and placing, Loading and unloading. THAT is the issue.

Having spent many many hours thinking on this, the best solution is a mini-forwarder, with the emphasis on the MINI. A self loading log trailer is way too big. I would like to be able to put at least 15 logs on, ideally 25, but it needs a fast moving loader. The logs are lighter, figure 200# max, so the 'crane' could be much lighter and there should be a winch for dragging some logs within reach for rare use. The grapple only needs to open about 12".  Anything more complicated just makes loading time take too long. Overall machine height (boom folded) cannot exceed 7'. An articulated machine would likely work best for tight turning inside the bush.

The varied terrain and situations are a big part of the challenge here. I rarely cut anything in an open area. Remember I am doing TSI work. So the average location is tight and overgrown, steep ground with logs of large broken rock and boulders. It seems like each different area could use a different solution, but the forwarder is one idea that fits in many situations, just not all of them.
If it was easy........

[doc henderson]

with the trailer and heli sling, only handle twice, to load and unload at the customers place. 

do you or bill have old equipment that can be modified to make a crane.  Log arch?  If you had some control valves and small cylinders, with used steel, night be able to pare it down to what you want.  but you time is an issue this spring, and it would not make you money for a while.

[WV Sawmiller]

Doc,

    I have not kept up with Drone technology as well as I should. That is probably the answer and we have just overlooked it.

    Actually a stone boat would be easy to make. Find a 7-8 foot long log 8-10 inches in diameter with a curve, saw 2 parallel runners 2-3 inches wide on the mill or with a chain saw (or split them out as old timers did)  with the curve to the front and down to make a natural lift so it doesn't dig into the dirt and ride over rocks and roots.

    Saw several 2X4 or 2X6 or such for the bed and make them 30-36 inches wide, as appropriate for the width of the boat/sled. Saw  1.5" or so tenons 5-6 inches long on each side, round them with a drawknife, bore mortises into the side of the runners with a spade bit or auger, drive the bed pieces through the runners placing them a couple feet apart to fit your load. You could bore small mortises through the tenons and drive a wooden or metal peg through on the outside of the runner to hold them in place. You could actually make the whole thing so you could assemble and reassemble as needed.

    Bore a couple of holes in the runners on the front run a stout rope or cable through to make a tow rope. I'd size it so I could get 2 rows of logs end to end. You could build stake type sides or just strap the load on with a rope or ratchet strap. You could carry to the site on a SXS or such and drag it down hill and load it with whatever was stable and you could pull back uphill with your prime mover, unload and the land repeat till you had removed all the logs in a small area.

    You could leave the stone boat in the woods near where you are working and not worry about moving it till finished.

    All the length and width is subjective and you could adjust to the terrain where it will be used and to keep the weight manageable. Longer is more stable, narrow fits between the trees easier but will turn over if you get it too top heavy.

  People used to use these with horses and they'd work great of you had one but you can down size to make it manageable to tow by hand and with the SXS.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Okay, I see Tom posted while I was typing so bear with me. The low height helps and you can place the stone boat close. I know it will get beat up but repair or replace as needed. JMHO.

[doc henderson]

Drone sounds good.  I think the sled will be trouble on a side slope and going down a steep hill.  Looks like just getting the sxs in these areas was difficult.  Tom, you need to be 30 years younger.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I hope you can forgive me Doc if I don't spend a lot of time investigating air cranes (helicopters), but as you noted, time is a factor now. What I will do is continue to keep my eyes and ears open for something that will lead to a workable AND AFFORDABLE solution. Frankly I don't know how long this bubble will last anyway. I really didn't expect many orders this winter, but got blasted.

Howard, we really have to work on your reading comprehension skills. A stone boat would work fine BUT......

....... The issue is lifting and placing, Loading and unloading. THAT is the issue.......

A drone is just a less useful helicopter.

Getting done is my priority now. Time to move on.

[doc henderson]

how old is the elder grandson?

[SawyerTed]

Inga's elevator trees are one solution "sort of".  Maybe more affordable than air support. 

A counter weighted manual log lift could be mounted on a small trailer.  Just big enough to lift 36" mushroom logs.  Use mechanical advantage to reduce lifting effort.  No battery and relatively fast. 

Or a more involved solution would be a log loading arch/winch mounted to a trailer.  A cutting station could be incorporated so all the cutting wouldn't be on the ground. 

[Plankton]

A friend of mine has 2 old goldoni tractor things (transcars I think theyre called) he uses to build walking trails on state land. Probably too expensive unless you had guaranteed large volume you were moving every season.

There articulated 4wd. Have the seat and two wheels on the front half and a 3 way dump bed on the back half. One of those rigged up with a mini crane with padded tongs would be awesome. Theyre tiny but can haul as much gravel as will fit in the bed over basically any terrain. It burns 5 gals of fuel every few days with the tiny diesel thats in it.

[Old Greenhorn]

That Goldini TT would be a big help with at least the unloading part and it looks like it would be fine in our woods depending on width. Bu I still have the issue of loading and those machines are not available in the US that I can find. Also there is that pesky 'cost' thing.

[doc henderson]

a friend had a case articulated trencher with a backhoe.  you sat on it but that was about how wide it was.  could modify the backhoe.  but for this year, brute force is the fastest and cheapest.  If you can get the cutting done and find help loading or you cut, and they load.  need a friend with a highschooler age farm kid, who does wrestling.