Making it thrugh another year, '24-'25

[Ljohnsaw]

Ok, got two clocksmiths to question. When we moved into my current house back in 1997, my wife wanted a clock for the entry. She found one at a distant auction online. Bought it with only pictures. It was shipped and made it in one piece.

It's a very large wall clock, no chime. It is an 8-day and was made in London. Anyhow, explain this. When it gets down to its last 12 to 18 hours of wind, it starts to run fast! It will gain from 5 to 8 minutes. If I forget to wind it and it stops, I need to only wind it up for 7 days, not the full 8. Otherwise it stops after an hour or two. If I don't let it run down and stop (wind it every 7 days), I can wind it till it stops winding and it will run all week just fine. I'm careful winding it. I count the half turns and slow down for the last crank.

[SwampDonkey]

That smaller one in your last photo looks a lot like a Seth Thomas style with the handle. My uncle had one, but oak case with cherry finish. That went to his girl friend after he passed away. But it was mechanical and it had chimes. He bought that in the 70's I think, somewhere in Maine I suspect. It's American.

[thecfarm]

Old Greenhorn, that's a nice story that should be printed off and put behind the clock so others can enjoy the history of The Clock.

[aigheadish]

MM, I love the tall mantle clock!

Tom, your story brought a tear to my eye! Well done and well told. The sweetness of the talk (or lack thereof) with your dad was really nice and while my relationship with my dad wasn't great, it was getting better as we got older. I miss him more than I ever imagined I would and it shows up in unexpected ways. 

[Magicman]

John, sorry but I am not a clocksmith although I dabbled a bit.  Sadly, my go-to clocksmith passed a couple of years ago.  

Tom's description above of "leveling" a clock to get the proper sound is correct if the clock's verge adjustment is correct.  There are two exit drops and the "verge depth to the escape wheel" must be equal.  After the clock's enclosure is absolutely level, the exit drops are adjusted by bending the anchor.  The entrance drop must be adjusted first and then the exit drop is adjusted by varying the distance between the anchor and the escape wheel.

We have an Elgin "store bought" grandfather clock in our foyer that has a Cherry cabinet.


Here is an old Waterbury that I spotted in the top of an open garbage can.  The glass door was open and dustpan sweepings had been dumped inside.  (I sat it on the kitchen counter trying a get a better picture.)

[Old Greenhorn]

John, I too am not a clocksmith, it's a profession that has nearly died out these days. But I learned a few things from hanging around my Pop. Problems such as yours are common and fortunately not due to abuse such as many of the clocks my dad repaired. Overwinding being the number one offence.
 Tell us about the clock, how old is it (date of MFG is very helpful, it says a lot)? When was the last time it was serviced? Has it always behaved this way since new? 8 day clocks are intended to be wound every 7 days, so running fast near the end of an 8 day cycle shouldn't be an issue. The stopping 2 hours after a full winding is a puzzle, but it could be that with a full load on the spring, the escapement cannot overcome the friction to release. Somebody with a good ear could probably hear this when it happens because the pendulum will swing but there will be no 'tick' at the end of the stroke. It's kind of hard to catch it doing that.
 My suspicion is two things, first the movement needs a cleaning. Was it new when you got it? Second, the escapement area MAY need a little deburring and smoothing out. This is delicate, but do-able with the right tools. Mechanical clocks are very susceptible to dirt and dirt and a lack of lubrication. They should have proper clock oil on all the jeweled movements parts and bushing every few years. One drop per bushing.
 Knowing more details about who made and how old the clock is will provide more hints. A true clocksmtih could probably fix that issue in short order. Of course, it could be the quality of the main spring itself and that would require replacement of it and a lot more work. Hope some of this helps, but I am no clocksmith.
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 Ray, maybe I should print that and keep it with the clock, good idea.

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Austin, Thanks, but I think the writing is poor. I wrote that 24 years ago, just to document the clock for family as I was working though some family history stuff. It was more of a writing exercise than anything. I did a few of those articles and had them up on a early webpage so family could access them. One was read by a person who wrote me for permission to reprint in a genealogy magazine, which she did. I can't even remember the subject now. I always wanted to write something of value with good quality, started 3 books, only finished one (the genealogy), never published it, just printed a few copies. Wrote some articles for technical magazines, They were published, got very good responses, but were not paid gigs. Writing is tough and I will never be good at it, but sometimes I do it just for the enjoyment. If some folks like it then that's great.

[Ljohnsaw]

So here's the clock. It's level. I use a little bubble level on the top to check.


Supposedly rosewood with brass inlay circa 1860. Some of the brass was missing and they used some gold paint to dress it up. Found the receipt from the auction house. With premium and tax, $1,009. I thought that was way too much back in April 2000. Have it serviced every 3 years? 🙄😔 It may have been serviced before going to the auction.

[Ljohnsaw]

I have another mantel clock that is marble from France.

Took it in once to see what it would take to get it running. The winding is CCL so at one point someone stripped the mainspring gear forcing it. IIRC, it needs that, a key, a pendulum and something else for the chimes. Not sure if it was the rods or hammers. I may get it fixed before the last two clock shops around here are gone.

[SawyerTed]

My great grandpa's mantle clock.   



This one quit after my grandpa inherited the house.  Grandpa put this one in the closet and got a replacement very similar to this one. 

Dad got this one and rebuilt it when I was 10 or 12 years old.  Our best guess is this is about 130 years old.  That's based on great grandpa's age and when he married and built the house.  

I start it every few months and let it run several days just to keep it going. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I think the maker of your clock is Daniel Johnson, it fits the period. I also think your clock should certainly have grown in value over what you paid for it, so don't fret about that.
If you open the back door you may find some more info about it. Most clocksmiths will make cryptic notes in pencil inside the door or cabinet with cleaning or repair dates. Also, the builder will often put a more detailed engraving on the main plates such as their address, year made, and things like that. Mr. Johnson stood tall in his business during that period and should have had some other marks inside, no doubt.
I'd get that to a clock smith before they are gone, as you say. The value only increases if they are in good shape and running well. That is a fine example and worth maintaining.

[Old Greenhorn]

I may have spoke too soon John. More research is needed by somebody with the right materials, but there are several clockmakers using the name Johnson between the 1750's and the 1920's. I can find no evidence that Daniel Johnson made clocks like your, he focused on pocket watches and chronometers, which might explain why he was blind when he finally retired. His son's were also in the business. There was another big clockmaker in London tha was active in the century after Danial Johnson, but all hi work I found used his first two initials followed by "Johnson". The only maker using 'Johnson' alone (no initials) and "London" was active about 90 years earlier. It is possible your clock was made around 1770 or so?
 Again, the secret, or part of it, may be revealed inside that cabinet.

[SwampDonkey]

@SawyerTed My great grandmother had one just like it. It was in my grandfather's house up stairs in the hall all the years I spent up there. I don't know where it ended up after uncle passed away. It was his to do whatever, he saved it's life I think. It did run and had the key. Not sure how accurate it was. I know it was never cleaned or looked at.

[Old Greenhorn]

I have another mantel clock that is marble from France.
...............
Took it in once to see what it would take to get it running. The winding is CCL so at one point someone stripped the mainspring gear forcing it. IIRC, it needs that, a key, a pendulum and something else for the chimes. Not sure if it was the rods or hammers. I may get it fixed before the last two clock shops around here are gone.

My Pop had a few of those, also called 'shelf clocks' made in the late 19th and early 20th century. One had little marble columns on it, but I think they found a substitute rather than marble to use, but it sure looked like marble.
 That mainspring keeper may cost a fair amount to repair because at least one movement face will need to be removed, then a new keeper made. Keys and hammers are usually an easy purchase, try the link that Lyn posted previously. Hammers generally come on the rods if I recall and usually need fitting and adjust for each clock. But if they rod is there and just the hammer is missing (and not found somewhere in the case) then the 'smith might be able to just make and fit a new hammer on the rod. Many of these clocks are based on similar designs and will have similar parts. The tricky part is the final fitting and tuning of replacement parts because that's what is needed to function and keep reliable time.
 All pendulums have to be tuned after fitting, but initial length range is critical and it needs to have the correct suspension system to match the crutch (if there is one). Short pendulums can be trickier than long ones.
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Ted, that clock you have is a beauty also. You are lucky to have it running and know it's history. Have you ever opened the cabinet to look for makers or repair info?

[SawyerTed]

Tom, thanks.  I haven't done much research on the clock beyond what dad and grandpa told me.  

Those clocks were quite common.   I think the last ones I saw in good condition were +/- $150 at auction.   In the early 1900s I think they were like Timex watches.  Doesn't mean any less to me though. 

The mantle clock chimes the hour and a single chime on the half hour.   It makes the pets kinda antsy so the clock doesn't run more than a week at a time.  

My dad also saved an old school clock around the same time he was working on this one.   I believe my brother has the school clock.  It had a much sharper TICK TOCK  for some reason and don't miss it due to the sound.  I don't know its history.   

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, opening that clock back up might provide you with more info. Yes, those clocks were very popular and in so many households. Mass produced beginning with stamped brass for the major parts, but still a lot of hand work in each one to a degree.

 Since I have already forgotten more than I currently know about this and many other subjects, I had gone through the few of my Dad's clock books that I still have while trying to get info on John's clock. One of those books was a 1969 reprint of the Ansonia Clock Company catalog, complete with prices. (Ansonia is an easy lookup, closed in 2006 I think.) There was a larger photocopy of one page stuck between the pages. I ignored it yesterday because I was looking for an example of John's clock. This morning I went back and looked at it more carefully. I realized it was a clock my Pop had got 'somewhere' that he began a full restore job on. It's a hanging 'hall clock' with very ornate woodwork. I have that clock boxed up in my garage someplace and IIRC the wood is all cleaned and sanded. The movement is likely stored elsewhere around here. I wonder if I could collect all the pieces and have a go at it. Pop would spend years working on those things in fits and spurts. This one he never got finished, but it looks like he did get a lot of labor into it. That clock is priced at $70.00 in that 1914 catalog. By comparison, a full hall clock (AKA 'Grandfather") of similar detail is priced  $160. - $250. depending on the wood and detail. It might be fun to give it a go, but I have a number of movements in that size group and not sure which one is correct. Also, I never recall seeing the eights around, let alone the pendulum.
 Just another rabbit hole.

[thecfarm]

$70 was A LOT of money back in 1914.
My father was born in 1923 and use to load trucks with gravel for a buck a day.

[Ljohnsaw]

Ok, "opened" it up. There is a small door on the bottom to swing the pendulum. Nothing in there.

There is a small side door I can barely get my hand in to rehang the pendulum. Here is what you can see on there.



Pretty cool and simple. That's when I saw that four wooden pins hold the face on. One is missing. Take the face off and place it face down. Some script on the tin.



It continues under the works but can't make it out. It is upside-down on the back of the left side, if that matters.


On the back of the right side is this.


Looks like a signature. I see nothing that looks like a date.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well John, that script (looks like maybe pencil or scribe?) appears to me to be marks made during the manufacture. Like notes, or which clock that face was made for, or which person in the shop made that part (so he got paid for it). Like guns, they would put a 1, 2, or 3 digit number on the important parts so they could get to or back with the gun the were fitted for if mixed up down the line. But I think by the 1860's they were past that and most parts were very close if not already at final finished size.
 This looks like a clock that was built as they got closer and closer to mass production because I see many of the early 'niceties' are missing, like polished finishes on all part regardless of importance. The parts are cleanly machined, but not polished. Also I see some rough edge on the back plate, which may have been cut on a shear. The parts were made en masse, but each was 'fitted' for one single clock assembly. Simple parts like stantions did not require fitting, only the working parts.
 As for markings, if they existed, they would most likely be on one of those two plates that the movement is built between and most likely the back one. From what you said and shown, I am guessing there is no back door/cover on this clock case? In any event, I am doubting that there are any markings on those plates. It appears that these clocks were made as quickly as possible for the 'common' market.
 Your clock looks to be in great shape, could probably use a drop of oil on each pivot. The Pendulum holder and the crutch is your second photo look to be in perfect shape. These often take bad hits during moves and such. I see a very encouraging lack of dust, and that is a big thing, dust can really screw up these old clocks.

 Yes, it looks simple, but that's the beauty of complex devices, making them look simple. Isn't it?

[Ljohnsaw]

Yeah, I didn't snap a picture of the back plate but it had nothing on it. Thinking this was a mass produced clock.  So does 1860 sound right?

[Old Greenhorn]

Well John, I am no clocksmith nor an appraiser, just an amateur who has seen some stuff and studied manufacturing techniques for a long time. What I can see, and what I think I know tells me it is much more likely to be late 1800's rather than late 1700's. The lack of marking on that back plate is a tell, as are the finishes on the parts, plus I can see that there is a focus on making clean and fast parts with nothing 'extra'. This all indicates to me the later generation just about 30 years or so before they really got into mass production. So yes, my 'opinion' is that 1860 is probably correct, but my 'opinion' isn't worth squat. It is a very nice clock regardless, and worthy of keeping it going as all these old clocks are. Clocks and guns represent all the development of man's advancement into an industrialized world, and the preservation allows us to re-visit those struggles at improvements and progress.
 The thing that keeps dogging me is that I can find no other examples of that or similar clocks from that period that are marked the same on the face with just 'Johnson' and London. You would think in this internet age we could find another one somewhere. I only have a few of my Dad's reference books and wish I had them all right now, but that was a lot of books. Also, Johnson was a very common name for English Clock and Watch smiths, which makes it no easier.
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Yesterday in a brief jump a little further down this rabbit hole I went out in the (very cold) garage and searched for that wall clock my Dad had worked on. I did not (yet) find it, but I did find another clock that I have saved from destruction at a garage sale almost 40 years ago. It is in very rough shape, and hall clock, weight driven, no weights, no pendulum, missing wood trim pieces, full of mouse droppings, etc. I completely forgot I had it. No ideas what to do with it. I think I gave 5 bucks for it. Another project I may, or may not ever get to. I'll look for that other hall clock when things get warmer.

 Best of luck with your clock.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well it's been about 10 days since I had added anything here that I actually did and that seems to be pretty accurate. I spent those days goofing off reading, working on some genealogy things, and stuff like that there. Still trying to shake the blues from the open house. I looked into cost for doing the log inoculation in the spring. the supplies look do-able and affordable. Not enough to think too much about and I would have leftovers to use later. SO I think That's a 'go'. I'll put  Loginator on my to-do list. Just need some 2x4's and a short 2x12.
 I finally went down to the mill today and brought a grandson (his first time), really just to check things out and make sure all was good to go. I had one 17' log on the bed that was pretty thin on one end, maybe 10" so I thought I would mill that up to get it out of the way and let the Grandson see how this is done. We had some extra trips aback and forth to the shop for ear plugs and a potty break, but eventually got to work and blew out the log into 1x6's in short order. He helped by marking slab lengths and stacking them in the rack after I cut them up. It went pretty quick and we cleaned up and headed home by about 1pm. He seemed to have a good time, no complaints, it was pretty cool, about 20 or so but sunny. Even though the sawdust, he managed to play with it, he just needed a good shovel to break it up.
 Anyway, it was nice to get out and produce something.
 Freezing rain coming in early tomorrow morning, then rain. I still have 200 pages to slog through in that book.  I've been kind of keeping the shop warm, but barely. Shooting for 50° to keep the thermal mass from getting too cold. When I am ready to work it will pop up pretty quick if I start at 50.

 Tomorrow is another day and I'll deal with it when it comes and we see what it looks like.

[Nebraska]

Glad you had a helper, bet he comes back.  

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, we'll see. He had no complaints that I am aware of. I had a hard time finding him gloves because he had a thumbnail torn off last week and the bandage is kind of thick and changed daily. I gave him my good Carhart's, but when we got home he had a brain fart and pulled the glove off too fast and the bandage came with it. So there were some tears until I gobbed together enough stuff from my kits to replicate what he had, except for that special wound care gauze with the Vaseline in it. We made it work and he survived. I just checked with his Dad and he's not dead, so all is good.

 If he doesn't 'come back', I still have 2 more grandson's to go through.

[Old Greenhorn]

Not many updates here recently because I haven't done much of anything. I have been going through the end of year blues I always get. For various reasons I need not get into, i get depressed and morose. The lack of firewood and bad income year did not help either. I stopped heating the shop around Christmas except or very cold weather just to keep the thermal mass up at around 50. So today for instance it was 35 in the shop this morning so I did a fire and have been feeding it with the goal of getting it to settle in at around 60 for 12 hours or so. It just now (4pm) hit 60, but I am not stuffing the stove just keeping it going upward slowly. I had also spent many many hours buried in the genealogy work staying up until the wee hours checking leads and I found a mess of new stuff and several breakthroughs. But that can be mentally exhausting work, discovering dark news from the past. So that all built up and it was time for a break from that. Back to work.

 So recent days have had poor weather, cool/cold and overcast all day with non productive snow. But yesterday I forced myself down to the mill in spite of the 20's being the high for the day. I had the right clothes on and was pretty comfortable and zipped through the first log, but the wind was out of the north so right through the mill area which is not normal or common. Try as I might, I could not get my finger tips to warm up. I finished off the one log and bagged it. I had to get my fingers warm. I should have never started out without gloves thinking I could warm them fingers back up. The wind was just too much.
 So I came  home and the wind wasn't as bad here, having some shelter on that north side. I bucked up a bunch of short logs I had piled here. I still have more but I made some progress. By that time the sun was below the trees.
 Today I was up early and fired up the shop stove as noted, then headed off to the mill. I stopped in at Bill's for a bit because they were having a breakfast birthday party for his daughter, now 8, and said hello to everyone and had some coffee. Then to the mill, fuled it up, lubed it, and knocked out several logs until that neuropathy took good hold of my right foot and I could feel that foot at all. I can't work like that, so back home, had lunch, foot finally warmed back up. So I went out and hand split just about all the wood I bucked yesterday. Moved 3 cart loads into the shop and one into the house.
 But now my back is shot for the day.  So I took some Advil and have time to cruise the forum. A new book arrived yesterday so maybe it's time to start.

[doc henderson]

Do not fret Tom, you got us for friends!  

Garth Brooks - Friends In Low Places (1080p60 HD)