WM EG200 edger…gas or diesel?

[KWood255]

Good morning folks,

I'm looking at adding a new Woodmizer EG200 edger to the lineup to aid in efficiency and production levels. I have not really considered other manufactures only because of the service I've received through WM, and so far I have been very impressed with quality. I'd welcome other suggestions for comparable edgers though.

The EG 200 is offered with a 24hp Yanmar diesel or 26hp Kohler gas. The electric version is not an option for me as we do not have 3ph power.

A substantial up charge for the diesel...close to $8k CAD. Anyone here been able to see the diesel run compared to the gas? I like the idea of diesel, presumably much more torque, and everything other than chainsaws are diesel powered around my mill yard. Just not sure if it's worth the costs.

[Dave Shepard]

I have the ED26, which is the 26 hp CAT. I've sent 10/4 elm through, both blades, no problem. I don't see a gas doing that. Unfortunately, I have lost faith in both gas and diesel small engines. Maybe 24hp is small enough that it doesn't have as much garbage bolted to it.

As far as the machine, it's been great, but you can easily cut a flitch that is too wide. Especially if the log has a lot of butt taper. I don't mind edging those on the mill occasionally. Or zipping one edge off with a battery saw.

[CCCLLC]

Dave is very correct on the diesel opinion. Two blades cutting  at same time, time for torq. Also, as he mentioned, emissions  added to your choice of engines is certainly a strike  against  that choice.

[Magicman]

Even with the emission controls, Diesel Torque is King.

[KWood255]

Yes the emission "crap" is a concern with any diesel engine these days. I am hopeful that the 24hp will be exempt from most of it. I suppose I could have researched it more, but I wanted to go with a new machine so the options are slim. 

Had a real quick chat with my WM dealer earlier today and placed the order for the EG200 diesel. It should arrive in anywhere between 4-8 weeks, depending on trucking. Hopefully it gets north of the border without being subject to tariffs. We will cross that bridge before pickup time, but fingers crossed that it doesn't come to that. 

I'm sure the edger will help with production, and prevent the never ending re-saw pile that builds in the saw shack. 

[Magicman]

I wish you the very best !! 

[PAmizerman]

Do you not have power or just don't have 3 phase?
I put in a phase converter and went electric. You can pick up a brand new 30hp converter for around $3500

[PAmizerman]

Another benefit to putting in a phase converter is you can add more 3 phase tools that are generally much cheaper than single phase 

[PAmizerman]

Also here is a thread on split blades for it. 
You will see why we switched after your first blade change 🤣
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=107633.msg1868379#msg1868379

[SawyerTed]

If the electric service that is currently in place has the capacity, a digital variable frequency drive with phase conversion is a possible solution. 

There are a couple of ways to get three phase power out of a single phase service.  

One is a rotary phase converter already mentioned . For simplicity, a rotary phase converter uses an electric motor, called an idler generator, to generate the power for the 3rd phase. Two phases are already present in the two lines used to supply 240 volts, 120 each.  The idler generator control delays one leg to get the 3 phases timed 120 degrees apart.  

Another option is a digital variable frequency drive.  It is a box that does the single phase to 3 phase conversion but has the added benefit of motor speed control.  

Typically the VFD is dedicated to a specific motor.  VFDs tend to be less expensive than rotary phase converters.  That's good if you just need one. 

I run a VFD to power a 3 phase 10 hp planer.  I ran a cord and plug out of the VFD so I can unplug the planer and plug in other 3 phase machines. Right now that is only one other machine, a 3 hp 3 phase shaper.  

Just keep in mind there's a limit to the amperage single phase is going to supply.  Trying to run too much machinery at the same time might hit that limit.   I only have a 100 amp service in my shop.  I can't have my planer and any other large machine running simultaneously.  For instance, my son has a 3 phase lathe with VFD on it.  He can't be turning while I'm planing and have lights too.  

[customsawyer]

I'm with PAmizerman on this one. If you go the electric route, it will come with a 15hp motor that will run all day far cheaper than either of the other options. The savings from not having to buy the diesel engine will pay for your converter and any hook up wires. You know how many times you'll have to change the oil on an electric engine? Or blow out the radiator? Or fill the fuel tank?
I am one of the hardest headed critters you will ever meet. I was diehard diesel. If I could have gotten my dog to run on diesel, I would have tried it. I finally switched one of my edgers from diesel to electric. Just one engine is all it took to convince me. I was lucky because I was sawing full time for a big mill. What little bit of electricity I used down there was on it's own meter. It was very easy to figure out the costs of things. When I was running the diesel edger, it burned $32.00/day in fuel. (10+ hours a day of hard running). The electric edger increased my electric bill $65.00 per month. So for two days of diesel was all it took for the electric engine. The cost savings in fuel paid for the new edger in a short amount of time. 

[KWood255]

That's great info guys, thank you. Very interesting. 

I feel pretty comfortable working on all things around the house/farm/mill yard....except electrical. I have very little experience and even less confidence there. 

I do not currently have electricity at my saw shack. I plan to run some this spring for lights and a fan etc, but quite minimal.

To give a bit of an idea of the layout in my yard, I have central metering at the transformer. From there, one service (200amp) feeds the house, and 100amp (I think) feeds my little garage. When I built my shop, we stole power from the little garage to feed 60amp to the shop. I have 120/240v in the shop, which has been fine...for now. 

Without knowing how to do the math, I'm worried I would be unable to supply adequate power to the 15hp edger with a 3ph conversion, while still keeping the beer cold and lights on, especially with only having 60amps available. Again, my electrical math is poor at best, just seems concerning. 

The electric motors would be ideal in many situations. Less cost, near zero maintenance, quiet and strong. I just don't know if it's possible with my setup.....?

[PAmizerman]

The startup current is what's going to kill you.
I feed my converter with a 100 amp subfeed 
It might be possible with a soft starter or vfd but your pushing the limits with only 60 amps available 

[Magicman]

That is not saying that only 60 amps is available, only what his breaker is sized to.  The wiring and feed would determine what was actually available.  Since we are talking $8k, I would certainly have the power company and/or an electrician involved before pulling the final trigger.

[SawyerTed]

+1 on Lynn's advice, find out what a new service to your sawmill building will involve. 

My house and shop are on two different meters.   

Getting power underground to the shop did not cost anything.  I had to supply the meter base and supply to my 100 amp panel. My monthly cost is $25-$50 depending on usage. 

If you are planning on feeding power to your sawmill building from one of your other structures, you will already need a sub panel, wiring etc.  The additional cost might not be that much.  The only drawback here is my wiring had to be inspected before the power company would connect.  

Until you know, I wouldn't discount the idea.  

[KWood255]

Yes indeed, thanks again. I will make a few calls on Monday. When we built the new house we went from overhead lines/poles to underground as my poles were rotten and past due. With the change, we had to swap out transformers as well. My transformer is about 120 yards away from the saw shack, so if new service is required it could get expensive real quick. I will connect with an electrician who I trust to get his thoughts on tapping into the shop, which is only about 75' away.

While on the topic, it may be worth while researching a 3ph generator. I only say this as it could prove beneficial to run the edger, and future planers/moulders. A number of years ago my folks had a twin set of Yanmar/Izuzu 12kw generators at their resort which sipped fuel, and provided all necessary power. 

Again, I am less than limited on my electrical knowledge. Just assuming a 12-14kw generator would be plenty. 

[Dave Shepard]

Too small. Maybe with soft start.

[YellowHammer]

I run a 3 ph American Rotary 30 hp ADX for my 20 hp edger and a bunch of other stuff, and it is great.  Go to the American Rotary page to learn all you need to know.  Here is link.  They are very good, I would buy another one tomorrow.  It looks easy, because it is. Mine is up in the barn loft, siting on the floor, 
and the on/off switch is downstairs, next to the dust collector's on/off switch. 

https://www.americanrotary.com/product-comparison/

For a 15 hp edger, you'd need a 30 hp rotary phase converter.  They are basically black boxes, no different than hooking up a dryer or welder.  They already have the lugs built in, so run the feed cable in and screw down the lugs, and, and the three phase wires out to your tool directly, or even to a distribution panel if you will want to run multiple tools at once, or independently.

They are sized for starting inrush and once running you can cycle other multiple machines online up to 30 hp for a 30 hp converter.

So I can easily run my edger and dust collector at the same time.

You can tie multiples together in the future to increase capacity, and simply turn it on with a switch before you switch on the edger.  Basically, too easy, you just need the 220V single phase amps to feed it and the edger.

[SawyerTed]

A rotary phase converter.  


Digital phase converter.  About the size of a small shoebox.  

Both have advantages.  Wiring for either is basically the same - 3 wires in (2 hots and neutral) and 3 wires out (each is a phase). 

The interesting thing about 3 phase is if your motor runs the wrong way, switch two adjacent legs on the input to reverse direction. 

[KWood255]

I run a 3 ph American Rotary 30 hp ADX for my 20 hp edger and a bunch of other stuff, and it is great.  Go to the American Rotary page to learn all you need to know.  Here is link.  They are very good, I would buy another one tomorrow.  It looks easy, because it is. Mine is up in the barn loft, siting on the floor, 
and the on/off switch is downstairs, next to the dust collector's on/off switch. 

https://www.americanrotary.com/product-comparison/

For a 15 hp edger, you'd need a 30 hp rotary phase converter.  They are basically black boxes, no different than hooking up a dryer or welder.  They already have the lugs built in, so run the feed cable in and screw down the lugs, and, and the three phase wires out to your tool directly, or even to a distribution panel if you will want to run multiple tools at once, or independently.

They are sized for starting inrush and once running you can cycle other multiple machines online up to 30 hp for a 30 hp converter.

So I can easily run my edger and dust collector at the same time.

You can tie multiples together in the future to increase capacity, and simply turn it on with a switch before you switch ops the edger.  Basically, too easy, you just need the 220V single phase amps to feed it and the edger. .

This is excellent, thank you Robert. The 30ADX looks to be about $4kUSD, so basically $6kCDN by the time it's landed here. It sounds very intriguing. I will do some research to see if I have enough power available from my shop before anything else.

I'm hoping to add a dust collector and/or electric conveyor sooner than later as well. This is sounding like the way to go.

Our electricity rates vary, but peak times are near $0.16/kwh. It's over my head to try to determine what it would cost for the additional power to run the phase converter and 15hp edger for 10 hours per week (as an example). Would be interesting information if anyone here is able to chime in.

[Magicman]

This is a perfect example of The Forestry Forum at work and working. 

[YellowHammer]

I had avoided three phase for years, it seemed difficult, with lots of smoke and mirrors.  When I bought my Straight Line Rip saw, they shipped the American Rotary with the saw, because it was the only phase converter they would allow to honor the saw's warranty.  That will tell you something, and we run it all day, every day, for quite a few years.  

I think it has a multi year warranty, but I've never needed it.  

[Dave Shepard]

I've been around 3 phase, and it would be my go to if it was available here. I, fortunately, avoided relying on a genset for anything at the mill. I have a few hundred feet of 350 MCM, and I'm going to try and get power in to the mill this summer. I know 350 is good for more than I want. I'll probably go with 200 amps. A meter panel with breakers is only a few hundred $. I think the sand to fill the trench will be my biggest expense. I think an rpc would be the way to go. 

[longtime lurker]

What's your vision here, as is where do you want your sawmilling operation to go? It's a question you need to ask yourself at times like this because future proofing electrical installations comes at a price... but not thinking about the big picture also comes at a price.
How much work is this edger going to do over the next few years... hours a day/ hours a week/ hours a month?
How long before it can't meet your throughput requirements...  do you see it being upgraded in a couple years or is it likely to outlast you?

Don't get me wrong I love electric power and it's most always the way to go. But if you're only using the equipment for a couple hours every so often it's sometimes not cost effective. Conversely if you've got big plans it's worth thinking ahead to what that looks like because - maybe not phase converters and stuff that are temporary system components- the wiring and switchboards that are permanent you definitely want to install today what you need tomorrow.

I've got 65 kVA 3 phase supply at 100 amps per phase. Upgrading that when I started hitting the limits was going to be $$. Interesting thing being the limit was in the wiring size coming in (utility company side), my boards could take way more juice. I stalled along for a while procrastinating, then enlarged again at which point the issue would have involved a 500kVA transformer including pole and wiring upgrades that was going to cost $$$.
While I didn't need 500 kVa at that specific time there was no longer any sense in thinking only one step ahead: I'm a sawmiller, this is what we do, and the motors get bigger and bigger and there's more and more of them.

I went to diesel generators to run the power hogs, initially a 90 kVA continuous for the dry mill followed by another 90 kVA for the green mill.  Now I'm thinking about another bigger unit for the greenmill because the next toy will leave me short on go-go juice again. It'll cost but not too bad because I'll pull out the generator that's currently installed and plug the next unit straight on in... the electrical system was designed expecting this to happen.


It's cost me some money over the years because of my do it once do it right attitude... I have paid for capacities I don't yet have and have lost production I could have had if I had settled for intermediate, "step along the way" solutions. But it's also saved me money in terms of not spending on equipment or solutions that were going to be outgrown pretty quickly.
It's hard to put a dollar value on those kind of things but I can look back and see where I went wrong in cases, and also where (had I had the money to spend) I would have wasted it on things that would not suit my business as it has evolved.  (There's also the "what if" paradigms... my business has evolved to here in part because I was chasing work arounds for back then's ideal solutions) Equipment is equipment, just like machinery or motor vehicles you buy it and sell it as required. But installation costs are forever and you can't recoup them except by using the installed machines day in and day out. And if you move away from internal combustion engines your electrical system becomes the arterial network of your  sawmill business... ain't nothing happens without it, and (copper wire and electricians with gold plated screwdrivers) you need to size it to allow for anticipated growth and spend the money right the first time - you do not want to be paying for that twice.

[PAmizerman]

If you end up going the three phase route there's a place in NY that sells used panels and breakers very economically