People with hay fields in the NE

[WhitePineJunky]

What mix of grasses do you use? I'm looking to make a small couple acre hay field that I would like to collect hay from or have someone nearby harvest it for livestock, I've been told "triple mix" is the best IIRC a mix of clover, fescue and Timothy grass, I went to the store today and they didn't have that there but had a pasture mix" containing clover, fescue, rye, Kentucky and  devour orchard grass


Anyone share their .2c on the matter? 

[newoodguy78]

What type of soil do you have? That can play a huge role in getting things established and growing well. If it's wet ground, sandy well drained etc...
Can also play a huge role in getting it harvested on time. For example orchard grasses do very well in cool damp conditions and is high quality feed but it's hard to get cut early enough for full nutritional value. Any of those you listed should make good forage and do well. Keep in mind if making dry hay clovers tend to add a day if not more of drying time. Can be great feed just something to  consider.
IMO you're on the right track going with a mixed blend.
Do you have a Kings Agri-Seed dealer near you by chance? I get about all my cover crop blends through them. Very knowledgeable people and offer quality seeds at very reasonable prices.

[WhitePineJunky]

What type of soil do you have? That can play a huge role in getting things established and growing well. If it's wet ground, sandy well drained etc...
Can also play a huge role in getting it harvested on time. For example orchard grasses do very well in cool damp conditions and is high quality feed but it's hard to get cut early enough for full nutritional value. Any of those you listed should make good forage and do well. Keep in mind if making dry hay clovers tend to add a day if not more of drying time. Can be great feed just something to  consider.
IMO you're on the right track going with a mixed blend.
Do you have a Kings Agri-Seed dealer near you by chance? I get about all my cover crop blends through them. Very knowledgeable people and offer quality seeds at very reasonable prices.

Well drained glacier till full of gravel, small hills and ridges. 

Pretty acid around 5 ph

[newoodguy78]

Sounds like pretty good workable soil. You answered my question before asking-ph. That's a bit low but given your screen name not surprising. Money well spent would be investing in lime. I'd personally want to get the soil a little closer to optimum prior to planting expensive seeds. 

Is this ground some of your cleanup areas after the fire? If it was woods one thing I've done with success in that scenario is spreading a high nitrogen fertilizer before doing any tillage or seeding. This helps balance the carbon to nitrogen levels speeding up the decay process of woody materials. Manures of any kind would be ideal especially chicken or pig. That stuff is literally rocket fuel for promoting healthy soils, if it's an option. 

Another thing to consider is maybe doing a cover crop blend for a season or two prior to seeding for hay production. They're a good weed suppressant and soil builder managed properly. 

Not trying to complicate your decision or derail your thread just offering some different ideas that have worked for me. 

Love hearing of people doing what you're doing. Keep up the hard work and you'll have green fields before you know it 

[WhitePineJunky]

Sounds like pretty good workable soil. You answered my question before asking-ph. That's a bit low but given your screen name not surprising. Money well spent would be investing in lime. I'd personally want to get the soil a little closer to optimum prior to planting expensive seeds.

Is this ground some of your cleanup areas after the fire? If it was woods one thing I've done with success in that scenario is spreading a high nitrogen fertilizer before doing any tillage or seeding. This helps balance the carbon to nitrogen levels speeding up the decay process of woody materials. Manures of any kind would be ideal especially chicken or pig. That stuff is literally rocket fuel for promoting healthy soils, if it's an option.

Another thing to consider is maybe doing a cover crop blend for a season or two prior to seeding for hay production. They're a good weed suppressant and soil builder managed properly.

Not trying to complicate your decision or derail your thread just offering some different ideas that have worked for me.

Love hearing of people doing what you're doing. Keep up the hard work and you'll have green fields before you know it

All the ground was burned over, since the fire, there's been a crazy take over of some sort of native grass too, it doesn't grow too tall but grew in thick 

What species do cover crops typically consist of, that's probably a good idea.

Although I did put down some highway mix along a new road last spring and it took off really nice almost giving full coverage. 

Thanks for the help!

[newoodguy78]

That native grass is natures band-aid. One thing I was told a long time ago that always stuck with me. Bare ground is a wound on Mother Nature's skin and it will do anything it can to heal it. That's the reason herbicides are constantly changing they work for a little while then the weeds become resistant. Same thing holds true with cultivating crops and weeding the garden, it never ends. Stop cultivating or pulling weeds and we all know what happens. Mother Nature wants something growing she'll always win.

Truthfully there's more species of covers than I could possibly list. They all have benefits depending on your end goal.

My opinion on cover crops is the more diverse mix the better. I call them cocktail mixes. When using them my goal is to mimic nature. Monocrops are not natural, they lead to problems and quite possibly complete losses. For example look at some of the forests that have been planted and or grown as one species. Eventually something comes along and wipes them out all together.

Short of a fire or mans intervention complete losses of diverse forests are essentially unheard of. One species might fail but others thrive because of it.

[GAB]

I'm not a soils pro, however I think your soil ph would be good for blueberries.
GAB

[WhitePineJunky]

I'm not a soils pro, however I think your soil ph would be good for blueberries.
GAB

Indeed it is! Blue berry bushes everywhere after the fire, there was always blueberry on my land but nothing like now. I had a couple people over picking with me some avid pickers with many years under their belt said seen nothing like it, not naturally anyway. 

There are a few blue berry farms in the county. 

One area about an acre I'm hoping to maintain as blueberry, it's 80% berry and 20% another bush sweet gale I believe.

[SwampDonkey]

Up here they have a mix of timothy and clover at the Feed and Need's store. You mostly want timothy. Too much clover give cattle the runs. PH here is around 6 ísh

Best blueberries I've seen is on old jack pine fire ground in the upper Miramachi river basin. The Little Southwest branch and North Pole River area. Used to sit on a stump with a 5 gallon pale and start filling. The shaded bushes had the biggest berries to.  Wild blueberries won't grow here, it's mostly in tune with blackberry and raspberry. It's old maple forest here where the good ground is. Cedar, tamarack, balm, black ash, elm, spruce in the wetter woods.

[Nebraska]

I personally really don't like fescue, Meadow Brome, Orchard Grass and Timothy, with Red Clover(or whatever clover works there). 

[newoodguy78]

Nebraska what don't you like about fescue? Don't have much experience with that one personally and can't offer an opinion one way or another. Seems like everything I read someone is either swearing by it or at it with not much of anything in between.

[Nebraska]

Endopyte fungal toxins. Requires managing around. 

[Plankton]

Ive ended up with predominatly redclover and orchard grass in all of my fields at this point. Some reseeding ive done with white clover and timothy and vetch mixed in. Timothy is good feed but doesnt stick around it seems 3 or 4 years after a reseed its all but gone for some reason. Also some alfafa is good to mix as well. Defintly throw some lime down first even if its just 2tons/acre top dressed. I reccomend getting a soil test to get a good idea of what your lacking if you havent already.

[newoodguy78]

Very valid recommendation Plankton, soil tests are the only way to know for sure what's needed and how much. Also a great to follow improvements as time goes on. 

[Brad_bb]

I'm in Indiana.  I'll just give 2 cents if you don't mind.  I have Gypsy horses, which are easy keepers, so for the most part we want lower calorie hay.  So our mixes are for that.  But many other factor affect the sugar in hay.  In general, the sugars in grasses are lower first thing in the morining and increase throughout the day as the sun shines and they are photosynthesizing.  So when you cut the hay, you want to do it early in the day but after any dew has burned off. You do not want to bale wet hay if it's for horses.  Any mold development is not good.  When someone is buying hay for horses, they must scrutinize what weeds are present, and if there is any smell of mold, if the hay is dusty from mold.  It doesn't take much to form.  A hay moisture probe is used when baling to determine the moisture level while baling.  You want it do dry well in the field.  Sometimes the weather window may not be ideal for relative humidity, temperature, wind.  Ideal drying conditions are low Relative Humidity(RH) a good breeze.  Another thing that really helps hay dry faster is the condinious crusher rollers in our discbine cutting the hay.  Some rollers only crush the stem every few inches, which a continious one is, well, continious.  It opens up the grass stems so the moisture can leave quicker and easier, making better quality hay.  Hay bales need to be stored off the ground with good ventillation for the first for the first month while it cures.  We stack on pallets on concrete, but in the past stacked on pallets over a grave floor in the shed.  Air needs to flow through the pallets or you will get mold on the bottom side of the bottom bales.  Once baled, we want moisuture below 18% and preferable below 16% but sometimes conditions are what they are.  You can bale up to about 22% or so if you are using hay preservative (sprayed on incoming hay before being packed in the baler chamber).  

Of course, cows are much more tolerant of lower quality hay than horses. You'll get more money for horse hay.  

I'll have to double check, but I think certain Fescues can affect mares and foals negatively.  I'll have to double check that.  We bought and  fed striaight Timothy before while we were redoing our hay fields but that was the most expensive hay.  It was really good for the horses coats, made them shinier and they liked it.  That crop was excellent, but the following year due to weather conditions there were a bunch of brown patches in the timothy.  Storms may have made some lay over in the field and killed in spots.  When they started baling it, it was way too wet and they had to stop.  It was far lesser quality and the way straight timothy grows, if not fertilized right, could grow tall and be more prone to wind/storm damage.  Timothy also needs reseeding after about 4 years.  A good grass mix with  Orchard and Timothy in there is good too.  Grass with Alfalfa in it is good for certain horses, but not for others.  Ours could only tolerate a little bit of alfalfa.  

The mix we planted last year when redoing our fields is per acre
110 LBS Orchard Grass Desiour
110 LBS Martin 2 Novel Fescue (we are no longer foaling so that is why this is not a concern for us)
50 LBS Kootanis Timothy
8 LBS MacBeth Meadow Brome

For horse hay you need to fertilize based on soil tests to get it established and growing to block out weeds.  We are still working to do that and control weeds while it gets established.  You have to be careful not to use weed pre-emergents  while the grass seed is emerging and young.  And if using weed sprays, there are certain lengths of time before it can be cut and baled otherwise it cannot be fed to animals. 

There's a lot more to lean than one might think when it comes to hay.  If you want to learn about hay test reports and what to look for let me know.  Hope some of this is helpful.

[SwampDonkey]

I seeded the new lawn with a mix of timothy and clover. This time of year you'd think the timothy was dead or died out. By the end of May that stuff takes off and you could mow it 3 times a week. I have added in some lawn grass mix in a shaded place and where the wood is piled over winter, but otherwise the timothy does well here on the lawn. The lawn can dry out here quickly in low rainfall because there is rock and gravel under it from old buildings, acts like sand. It's top dressed with soil like garden soil, maybe 4 inches. Had to do a lot of digging here and I wanted to use the digging to fill in areas. We all know the little area for foundations doesn't yield much top soil. And they will usually bury it anyway. Yeah, they can dig and move dirt all day long, but never save the good stuff from the poor stuff. But as I said that doesn't go very far anyway.    I had to cover about an acre here with good soil including a big drain field.

[GRANITEstateMP]

someone said cover crop earlier.  Last fall I got VolunTOLD to start seeding down somd.of the corn ground while the rest of the family finished chopping corn.  Most fields were a winter rye.  Some fields also got some radish of some sort mixed in. It was a state crop program with X dollars per acre if you used certain mixes. 

I can't remember what the mix is we get when rotation a corn field back to hay.  I'll have to ask.  I know that in our county we're lucky enough to have a rental seed drill through the ag extension.  Its a bit narrow for big fields, but is accurate, and cheap, they charge by the acre!

[Brad_bb]

For good direction, find the local university with a good ag program and get in tough with the Agronomist attached to them.  They will usually consult often for free.  They can really steer you in a good direction for the local practices/best varieties for your locale.

[SawyerTed]

After 35 years of growing and making hay here, i concur that the first order of business is a soil test.  

Know which nutrients and how much to apply is as important as seed variety.   

[WhitePineJunky]

After 35 years of growing and making hay here, i concur that the first order of business is a soil test. 

Know which nutrients and how much to apply is as important as seed variety. 

Il do that, I assumed that the local farmers that I asked may have been in the know on that and they are only a couple KM away, but I found these test kits on Amazon for cheap so I think il order some. Would this panel on the kits be all I would need to look into?

https://www.amazon.ca/Luster-1602-Rapitest-Soil-Test/dp/B01HQXF0PS/ref=asc_df_B01HQXF0PS?mcid=3daea81b026c344b875d9c26150ef8bb&tag=googlemobshop-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=706745932786&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14316021988161798802&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000038&hvtargid=pla-1218005481297&psc=1&gad_source=1

[WhitePineJunky]

I'm in Indiana.  I'll just give 2 cents if you don't mind.  I have Gypsy horses, which are easy keepers, so for the most part we want lower calorie hay.  So our mixes are for that.  But many other factor affect the sugar in hay.  In general, the sugars in grasses are lower first thing in the morining and increase throughout the day as the sun shines and they are photosynthesizing.  So when you cut the hay, you want to do it early in the day but after any dew has burned off. You do not want to bale wet hay if it's for horses.  Any mold development is not good.  When someone is buying hay for horses, they must scrutinize what weeds are present, and if there is any smell of mold, if the hay is dusty from mold.  It doesn't take much to form.  A hay moisture probe is used when baling to determine the moisture level while baling.  You want it do dry well in the field.  Sometimes the weather window may not be ideal for relative humidity, temperature, wind.  Ideal drying conditions are low Relative Humidity(RH) a good breeze.  Another thing that really helps hay dry faster is the condinious crusher rollers in our discbine cutting the hay.  Some rollers only crush the stem every few inches, which a continious one is, well, continious.  It opens up the grass stems so the moisture can leave quicker and easier, making better quality hay.  Hay bales need to be stored off the ground with good ventillation for the first for the first month while it cures.  We stack on pallets on concrete, but in the past stacked on pallets over a grave floor in the shed.  Air needs to flow through the pallets or you will get mold on the bottom side of the bottom bales.  Once baled, we want moisuture below 18% and preferable below 16% but sometimes conditions are what they are.  You can bale up to about 22% or so if you are using hay preservative (sprayed on incoming hay before being packed in the baler chamber). 

Of course, cows are much more tolerant of lower quality hay than horses. You'll get more money for horse hay. 

I'll have to double check, but I think certain Fescues can affect mares and foals negatively.  I'll have to double check that.  We bought and  fed striaight Timothy before while we were redoing our hay fields but that was the most expensive hay.  It was really good for the horses coats, made them shinier and they liked it.  That crop was excellent, but the following year due to weather conditions there were a bunch of brown patches in the timothy.  Storms may have made some lay over in the field and killed in spots.  When they started baling it, it was way too wet and they had to stop.  It was far lesser quality and the way straight timothy grows, if not fertilized right, could grow tall and be more prone to wind/storm damage.  Timothy also needs reseeding after about 4 years.  A good grass mix with  Orchard and Timothy in there is good too.  Grass with Alfalfa in it is good for certain horses, but not for others.  Ours could only tolerate a little bit of alfalfa. 

The mix we planted last year when redoing our fields is per acre
110 LBS Orchard Grass Desiour
110 LBS Martin 2 Novel Fescue (we are no longer foaling so that is why this is not a concern for us)
50 LBS Kootanis Timothy
8 LBS MacBeth Meadow Brome

For horse hay you need to fertilize based on soil tests to get it established and growing to block out weeds.  We are still working to do that and control weeds while it gets established.  You have to be careful not to use weed pre-emergents  while the grass seed is emerging and young.  And if using weed sprays, there are certain lengths of time before it can be cut and baled otherwise it cannot be fed to animals.

There's a lot more to lean than one might think when it comes to hay.  If you want to learn about hay test reports and what to look for let me know.  Hope some of this is helpful.

Very insightful and answered some questions I hadn't thought of yet! Thanks!

[SwampDonkey]

Up here in NB, the soil test lab results were never reliable. And that was over 30 years ago. The lab has been closed for years. We always had to send soil samples to Ontario for accurate results. And that isn't ideal, because as I was taught about forest soils by two old Germans the samples had to be taken for testing right away as sitting around for days influences the results for certain things.

This letter tells us where to send samples and so forth. It's a sad state of affairs when NB can't test a soil accurately or even have a lab, unless testing forest soil.

https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Departments/10/pdf/Agriculture/AgriculturalSamplesQandA.pdf

[SawyerTed]

I'm not in the NE.  Here spring is a hard time to establish grass.  I can only go on my experience here that spring would be a good time for legumes, soybeans here. 

A mix with winter rye in the fall would be typical here. 

[SwampDonkey]

Grass goes in in April-May like red fife (Marquis) wheat before the soil gets dry by the middle or late June. The wheat we grow has origins in Ukraine. The red fife was luck, found in testing of grains over 100 years ago shipped from Scotland which was a spring wheat, but only one plant in with winter wheat seed. Then it was rediscovered from Ukraine and given a new name, but found to be the same. Funny how stuff works out.

[Brad_bb]

Also, we Tedder our hay with a Krone rotary tedder to get it to dry more quickly.  Teddering is different from raking.  Teddering flips it over and spreads it evenly to expose all sides to dry it more quickly.  We tedder at least twice and sometimes more.  We can feel the underside of the hay and often tell if it still feels too moist.  We do this to speed drying because often we have a limited weather window for first cutting and don't want it to get rained on.  That has happened and you Teddering it to get it dry asap.  They do say that Teddering increases sugar because the plant is still photosynthesizing after being cut, but the benefits of getting it dry quicker have outweighed any of that for us.  In the test reports, our sugars have not been too high.  We will have a new grass type this year after replanting a couple of our small fields last year(long story why we had to do that, basically one of the grass types we were advised to plant originally was causing a problem with the horses).  

Also, you have to make sure the dew burns off before you tedder or rake or bale.  Sometimes moisture can come up from the ground overnight and be under the hay, thus necessitating teddering to make sure the hay is properly dry before baling.

Horse hay takes a lot more attension so as to prevent any dusty mold either from moisture in the bale, or on the bottom side when curing. 

I don't know if I mentioned that hay cannot be fed to horses until it cures for a month to 6 weeks.  Once baled the temperature in the bale will increase as what living enzymes and bacteria produce with what moisture is present.  The temp will increase in the first week, and then start to decrease along with more moisture as it breathes which is why good ventilation/cross breeze is important.  Hay baled too wet can ferment, the temp can rise and spontaneous combustion can occur.  That is why knowing this is important.